What's with all the hate for Paul?

a reply to: deadeyedick

sigh

Yes I got the whole message... its not true

One can reject Paul and still be Christian...

to be Christian is to follow the words and values of "Christ"... Not Paul...

Just as the poster said in my thread... Thus he knows what he stated in this thread is not true, or he forgot... which is more likely?

Perhaps he just changed his mind on the subject?

Personally I find that hard to believe... going from "rejecting Paul does not mean you're not Christian" To " IF you reject Paul you reject Christ" is backwards...

but you can come to your own conclusions... I stand by mine

a reply to: Akragon It is a good thing for the masses that Jesus is the one at the top of the ladder of faith. Accept Jesus and he will accept you. Now if someone like your self spreads the message to reject much of the bible then you run the risk of losing souls in the good fight because just because you do not recognize the message is mostly the same most others see the simularities and if they reject the good then they are in danger of rejecting Christ. It is in that manner that the path of rejecting Paul can lead to rejecting Jesus. double sigh

a reply to: deadeyedick

Don't you think that kinda speaks volumes about your own faith in his words?

Truth remains truth regardless of belief...

HE called himself "the truth"... And IF one actually reads what he said as opposed to listening to what others said about him... That person can not reject him... And IF said person chooses to... That tells others what is in that persons heart

Paul on the other hand is not "the truth, or the life, or the way"...

He is a self proclaimed apostle... Who did not teach the same thing as Jesus did...

Thus... Rejection of Paul makes no difference to those who actually know what Jesus said...

Furthermore... That person can also clearly see the faults with Pauls doctrine

Rejecting paul has no bearing on what is truth

a reply to: Akragon

Even if i accept your view that paul was false or wrong it doen not negate the fact that his message is a damn good one overall and throwing the whole thing out because some is wrong then you throw out the good with the bad. That creates a mental path that says the same good that was found in paul was found in Jesus and should be thrown out because someone found part of Jesus message to be wrong also. That is just another reason to trust in the holy spirit that gave us the word in the form it is in. It is very possible that the logic fails us because we are not discerning with all the knowledge of GOD.

Once you throw any books of the bible away your soul is in danger and you have created a path or doorway for anything you do not understand or agree with to be thrown out. Then soon you are left with nothing. It shows a severe lack of faith in GOD.

a reply to: Akragon

I suppose that if i told you i am an apostle of Jesus and that i was annointed with holy oil by the holy spirit you would reject me too. This is why i will not say that because i would only steer you further away from the truth because you reject the truth. In that same manner you will never know the truth because you have not the faith to accept it. It is just that mentality that keeps the masses away from GOD.

a reply to: deadeyedick

Even if i accept your view that paul was false or wrong it doen not negate the fact that his message is a damn good one overall and throwing the whole thing out because some is wrong then you throw out the good with the bad.

I didn't ask you to accept anything... and I don't really care if you do or not either honestly...

That creates a mental path that says the same good that was found in paul was found in Jesus and should be thrown out because someone found part of Jesus message to be wrong also.

uhm... no it doesn't

And I've been studying the gospels for over 10 years now... IF someone finds a flaw in the teaching of Jesus please feel free to point it out... Its actually the only part of the book that is flawless...

That is just another reason to trust in the holy spirit that gave us the word in the form it is in. It is very possible that the logic fails us because we are not discerning with all the knowledge of GOD.

Well no... That might be a valid reason for a Christian to accept everything in the bible... Not for me personally though... there wouldn't be flaws, errors, or contradictions for that matter IF said "holy spirit" gave us the book... it was written by men... and subject to mans flaws

Once you throw any books of the bible away your soul is in danger and you have created a path or doorway for anything you do not understand or agree with to be thrown out. Then soon you are left with nothing. It shows a severe lack of faith in GOD.

Well again, IF you choose to be a typical Christian and start laying guilt trips on me... trying to convince me my soul is in danger... Feel free, but you're wasting your time... and mine

One could easily say... IF you don't accept everything the quran says your soul is in danger... Would you believe it?

Obviously not... so don't pull that crap on me... I've been hearing it most of my life... and I can honestly say I have little to fear if Christians have a spot in heaven... Neither does anyone else for that matter

I suppose that if i told you i am an apostle of Jesus and that i was annointed with holy oil by the holy spirit you would reject me too.

I might call you a whack job... Jokingly of course... but I would not reject you...

I would however suggest you seek council outside of whatever denomination you choose to adhere to... preferably the professional type...

This is why i will not say that because i would only steer you further away from the truth because you reject the truth.

Jesus words are the truth... so how do I reject said truth...

especially since we're talking about Paul... and Paul did not know Jesus

The bible is NOT the truth in its entirety...

In that same manner you will never know the truth because you have not the faith to accept it. It is just that mentality that keeps the masses away from GOD.

Sigh... Oh please spare me the condescending BS

My relationship with God is far beyond simple faith...

What keeps "the masses" away from God is people that preach hell and damnation... people that believe their way is the only way... and IF everyone in the world does not except their way and ONLY their way... they're screwed...

You might also notice Jesus spoke of the narrow path.... And 1/3 of the world is Christian...

That path ain't narrow... And its by far the most confused religion out there, not only according to their own book... but by the shear number of different beliefs that stem from it...

a reply to: deadeyedick

Once you throw any books of the bible away your soul is in danger and you have created a path or doorway for anything you do not understand or agree with to be thrown out. Then soon you are left with nothing. It shows a severe lack of faith in GOD.

Dude that is bibliolatry right there. The bible is not god. What bible did Abraham have? How about Jesus and the apostles? Did they put their faith in the bible? Did the apostles chance hell before Paul's letters were canonized?

You search the scriptures daily because in them you think you will find eternal life.

Shalom

Maybe because the he is disliked by two very powerful groups in 2014, I refer to the LGBT and Jewish culture/communities.
Ironic they share this in common.
Both are able to put out a large amount of anti-Paul propaganda on the internet. Sadly some Christians on ATS have been effected by this propaganda. But sincere Christians need to think who's agenda is being supported with these attacks, God's or Satan's. ?

The following scripture, particularly verse 16, applies to and from Genesis to Revelation. The bible isn't a book you get to pick and choose what you like and what you don't, this is if you want to be a real Christian.

2 Timothy 3 12-17

In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted. 13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.
14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them 15 and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

And yes those are Paul's words, but inspired by God.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

It is said that the Judgement starts with the prophets and the priests. Self-proclaimed apostles and Pharicees apply. Paul was a worm, a flee circus puppeteer.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

So Paul decided his letters were scripture before they were even finished? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. Paul's epistles weren't considered "scripture" until after he died and even then that judgement was made by fallible men.

It seems like Christianity has a pretty low bar set when it comes to things being considered "scripture". In this case it was man who persecuted Christians who had a "vision" based on his word and his word alone. Did anyone else see or hear this "conversion" other than Paul? Possibly, but all three accounts of his "conversion" differ on the details even though they were all written by the same person.

Sorry, but just because someone says their word is the truth doesn't mean it is. Just because it's in a book written thousands of years ago doesn't mean it's true either. Man has always lied, on the biggest and smallest scales, it's no different with the bible or any other "holy book".

Why did Paul NOT have a lady? He is the only one of the Apostles without a spouse. Was it because his presence was obviously that of a charlatan? Or was it because he knew exactly what would be the outcome of his work? Certain death for anyone stupid or unlucky enough to reveal their involvement with the Jesua-ites. Besides. Secret agents and counter-terrorist operatives; do they usually marry or bring their lovers to work with them?


ETA:

Belonging to the enemy: Check, he was a pharicee

Sabotaging doctrine: Check, he abolished circumcision and food hygiene, effectively excluding Christians from anything Jewish

Establish the Lie: Check, Jesus was a prophet, not the Sacrificed Christ of Paul thus making any Christian a threat to Roman authority. He shaped Jesus into exactly who the Pharicees and Scribes claimed. A lofty maniac with grandiose ideas about himself and a veritable threat to anything Jewish or Roman.

The Getaway: Check, depending on the source, Paul most likely ran away to Spain when Peter was being nailed upside down to a tree in Rome.

The list is "endless": Check, I'm afraid so, and counting the atrocities made by churches, kings and armies in his name, his pit is bottomless too it seems.

edit on 2-8-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: eta

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

The following scripture, particularly verse 16, applies to and from Genesis to Revelation. The bible isn't a book you get to pick and choose what you like and what you don't, this is if you want to be a real Christian.

And this right here is the biggest problem with Christianity as a whole....

IF you want to be a real Christian you have to believe the bible is all true...

Nothing about Following the words of Christ... Just believe in the book...

How sad...

a reply to: Akragon

You should ask him what God wrote the addendum which always accompany bibles. Gently added in after John's words:

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book:
if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book"

And may I mention that out of all the handwritten sources that together make up the full corpus of 66 books of the Protestant Bible, not two biblical manuscripts are identical. Out of all the more than 10 000 versions of NT scripture, no two documents carry the exact same words, they all differ, some more than others, there is either added letters or words, missing or added passages, and grammar and language may be different and so on. There are no two identical Revelations, there are even a few without the part I quoted above.

Ask them which translation, or should we say, forgery, is the better one? Which one came first, headache or Aspirin?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

That is only there to promote fear...

Much like a lot of the rest of the book

a reply to: Akragon

True, but isn't it convenient that one can treat the infallible and literal word of God with such, should I say, crafty, or subtil decadence?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Nope you are just wrong, he is in heaven right now with Jesus, as are all first century true Christians.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

What in Heaven's name are they doing up there? Setting up a camp on Mars? Or are they on the Moon? Hiding behind the Sun perhaps? I'd suggest they come down straight away and clear up the mess they left behind two millennia ago. And seeing how their vicars treat their neighbours I suggest they bring a few millstones and put an end to this torment, seeing men of God rape and pillage in their names, drunk on their martyrdom and wisdom.

Heaven is a metaphor for the future, the world we live in here and now onwards. We can prove Earth is a sphere like Mars and Venus, and we all stood on the Moon with Armstrong taking that step. We are all in Heaven. Circling a star suspended in empty space. The line of firstborns in the house of David is unbroken, Jesus' bloodline lives. Jesus himself, the man you and your fellows have turned into a willing sacrifice to purge your sins-- is dead and gone, but no thanks to you, his impact on history and civilisation, his spirit is in aether -- eternal and his children have conquered the last frontiers, except for maybe the abyss and the darkest corners of Hades. Besides, God awakens anyone he likes if and when he likes, and sede them to rule with him in Heaven-- the Future Stronghold, the Cubus Christi. He likes cloning dead pharaohs and late prophets apparently. If Paul is in heaven his work is to wash Jesus' smelly feet. Heaven would be less of a victory without Paul to receive his honours while eating the crumbs that fall off the table, if he's up there they all love him, I bet on that allthough the odds suck. Paul was a traitor and a fraud, and an obvious such. A 'contra messianic provocateur' if you like. An antichrist, even named after the greatest antichrist of them all, David's nemesis, Saul.

Here are the three different accounts of Paul's conversion.

Acts 9
3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

The men stood and heard a sound but saw nothing.

Acts 22
6 “About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’

8 “‘Who are you, Lord?’ I asked.

“ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. 9 My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

The men do see the light and hear the sound whereas in Acts 9 they saw nothing.

Acts 26
12 “In this connection I journeyed to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we had all fallen to the ground I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

All of the men fall down whereas in the previous two it only mentions Paul falling to the ground and in Acts 9 it says the men traveling with Paul "stood" speechless.

All three accounts were written by the same author. How can we trust this conversion when it doesn't have its story straight? Why is one author contradicting himself in "God's word"? I could maybe understand somewhere else but on how Paul's conversion took place? Come on. It's blatant.

Also notice how in all three accounts it claims to have Jesus speaking. Jesus warned us about those who came in his name and who claimed to speak for him. Very suspicious if you ask me.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Touché! To sensible people that simple exercise you did there would by far substantiate scepticism to Paul's vision and the writer of Acts' credibility. I bet the "blinded" part was added later to explain or sort out why Saul Paulus' story is so inconsistent and saturated with err.

Well done, sir!

a reply to: deadeyedick

He was always messing about with John's songs.