The God of Jesus, the God of the Old Testament

a reply to: FlyersFan

Find me one single verse where a Prophet of the LORD says I should go kill and rape right now, and I'll renounce my faith here and now. I will admit Gods prophets were deluded and I will admit God, as portrayed in the OT, is evil.

I find it funny you immediately thought I was going to ascribe human emotions to God, that's not where I was going to go with that, but please, do what I just asked.

originally posted by: godlover25
Find me one single verse where a Prophet of the LORD says I should go kill and rape right now, and I'll renounce my faith here and now. I will admit Gods prophets were deluded and I will admit God, as portrayed in the OT, is evil.

Supposedly God was speaking here ... he told those people to go out and kill and rape RIGHT NOW (in their time). So are you ready to renounce your faith and admit that God's prophets made mistakes ... and that their own notions were interjected into 'prophecies' ... and that the 'god' of the Old Testament isn't really God? Go ahead ... you can do it.

MOSES Murder and Rape - Numbers 31:18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, keep for yourselves.

Murder family members - Exodus 32:26-29 Moses stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing."

Ezekiel Ezekiel - 9:5-7 Mass Murder - Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.

Jeremiah Mass Murder - Jeremiah 50:21-22 Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction".

Jeremiah 51:20-26 "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD

SAMUEL - Mass Murder and Mass Slaughter of Animals - 1 Samuel 15:2-3 - This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.'

Zechariah God called down rape and murder against Israel. - Zechariah 14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

a reply to: FlyersFan

I need one of those buzzers they use on game shows.

None of those are telling me to commit atrocities in the here and now. I'm not going to explain those verses to you now either, there are Bible commentaries for that.

Try again.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Oh, and you lose extra points for verbatim copy and pasting from Evilbible.

LOL @ your attempt to discredit the Mighty One of Israel

a reply to: DISRAELI

Yes, as I suspected, you picked up this idea from the phrase in Isaiah, as quoted in Matthew.

It was originally written by Isaiah, then quoted in Matthew.
The reason that Isaiah called it the district of gentiles was apparently because of how the Assyrians moved people in there from other countries.

But the passage in Isaiah was describing the situation in the time of Isaiah.
I did try to explain to you that the situation had been changed by the time that Jesus was born, and Galilee was once again a Jewish community.

I think it wasn't ever Judea, so it would not have "returned" to being Jewish.
It was part of the northern kingdom of Israel, the tribal region of Naphthali and Dan.
Once these "foreigners" were moved into the land and were settled, what indication do you have that there was a subsequent removal of that population?

When Jesus preached and healed in Galilee, he was preaching and healing amongst the Jews.

Obviously to people who would have considered themselves as part of Israel, such as people who would have attended synagogue and discussions on the Law.

If you think otherwise, then, I must repeat, you are missing the point of the episode of the Syro-Phoenician woman.

He would have stepped outside of where there were any self-respecting Israelites.

This took place when he had briefly left Galilee and "crossed the border" into the territory of Tyre and Sidon.
He was reluctant to speak to her, and explained that he was sent only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

He was there on some undisclosed business not having to do with preaching.

That comment makes no sense at all unless Galilee was part of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel".
That is, part of the Jewish community.

Or the area within the historic boundaries of the old kingdoms.
If he was interested in just people who were from Israel at some past generation or time, he would have stayed in Alexandria where there were a lot of Jews, but he was there, in that place where prophecy foretold he would be.

Whether there were "Jews" or not was not the main concern of Jesus, otherwise he never would have left Jerusalem when he was twelve.
Wikipedia, in its article on Capernaum, says that there is no evidence that the city was ever involved in the Jewish revolt. It might be because the Jewish component in the city was negligible.
So, like I was saying, even though it was historically Dan, it was turned into gentile Galilee.
My main point was about the actual words that Jesus, raised in Hellenistic Alexandria, probably, was communicating with to the people that were there, were in Greek.
You were saying that Jesus was saying "God" without qualifying that term as not being the same as the OT god.
I was saying that he was saying Theos for "God" without qualifying that term as not being the same as the god Zeus.
I am guessing that your response would be that Jesus somehow didn't speak Greek.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
My main point was about the actual words that Jesus, raised in Hellenistic Alexandria, probably, was communicating with the people that were there, in Greek.
...
I am guessing that your response would be that Jesus somehow didn't speak Greek.

Your statement about origin and language is certainly made without evidence.
All the evidence we have from the gospels is that Jesus was spending his time addressing his fellow-Jews, and that he identified his God with their own God.

originally posted by: godlover25
None of those are telling me to commit atrocities in the here and now.

Dude ... You entirely missed (or closed your eyes to) the point.

The whole discussion is that the 'god' of the Old Testament told people to mass murder and rape. I showed exactly where this 'god' supposedly said it. Obviously, if God the Father and Jesus are One, then those orders to mass murder and rape didn't really come from God. They came from the prophets who claimed to speak for God in these situations but they got it wrong. Jesus wouldn't tell anyone to go murder and rape. So therefore, much of what is attributed to the 'god' of the Old Testament isn't really God.

Your promise to admit that the prophets got it wrong was disingenuous. Shame on you.

a reply to: godlover25

He also said those who are not with Him are against Him,

and considering He and the Father are One,

do you think Your with The LORD?

Yup... And The Father is not the so called god of the OT... Its as simple as that...

if you're not, your not with Jesus either, at least not in reality.

In reality, Jesus and the OT god are not even close to the same... Thus they are not one, and he/she/it, is obviously not the Father of Jesus... IF the two were ONE... they would be at least similar... but they are total opposite

de·lu·sion
noun di-ˈlü-zhən, dē-

: a belief that is not true : a false idea

Good you're learning....

OT God = Good (delusion)

Jesus = OT God (delusion)

her·e·sy
noun ˈher-ə-sē, ˈhe-rə-

: a belief or opinion that does not agree with the official belief or opinion of a particular religion

I am not a Christian... Thus I can not be a heretic... We've already covered this...

Chris·tian·i·ty
noun ˌkris-chē-ˈa-nə-tē, ˌkrish-, -ˈcha-nə-, ˌkris-tē-ˈa-

: the religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ
the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies

Correction... Christianity is the religion based on the bible... A good portion of Christians do not follow Jesus...

And that is mainly because of the crap in the OT... it brings nothing but judgement...

In fact I recently made a thread on that very subject... I never Knew you

Know a tree by its fruits... Right?

The OT is bad fruit... rotten to its core...

And most Christians are not much better...

a reply to: Akragon

I don't subscribe to ancient heresies such as Marcionism or Arianism,

Those heresies were stamped out by the Saints hundreds upon hundreds of years ago,

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Lord have mercy

a reply to: godlover25

No one said you have to subscribe to anything.... Believe whatever you like...

Arius was correct though... He stuck to scripture unlike his opponents... They murdered him because he would not conform to the actual heresy....

Though it doesn't matter what I say...

a reply to: godlover25

Those heresies were stamped out by the Saints hundreds upon hundreds of years ago, . . .

Read "stamped out" as wholesale slaughter, torture and imprisonment.
Some of the so-called saints were given this honor in thanks of ruthless mass murder.
What you are doing (as it seems to me) is worshiping the concept of 'might makes right', something the Roman church inherited from the Roman imperialists.
I would not accept that as the bases of the correctness of my beliefs, that it was supported by the people who were more willing to commit murder in the process.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
The God of Jesus was the God of the Old Testament, the same God that his hearers had always been worshipping.
For most of the last two thousand years, it would not have been necessary to say so.
It was central to the Church’s understanding of the Bible, that the relation between God and his people is a continuous history, beginning with Abraham and coming to a climax with Jesus Christ.
One and the same God, from Genesis to Revelation.

This continuity seems to be coming under question again.
And yet it can be demonstrated from the words of Jesus himself.

He quotes the actions of the Old Testament God as the actions of his own God

He speaks of the creation which God created (Mark ch13 v19), and describes how he made mankind “from the beginning male and female” (Matthew ch19 v4), both actions which Genesis attributes to Israel’s God.

He quotes the words of the Old Testament God as the words of his own God

For example, he quotes ‘I am the God of Abraham” as something which “God” said, using it as evidence that God is “not the God of the dead but of the living”- Mark ch12 vv26-27
He does the same thing implicitly, at least, whenever he quotes the words which God spoke in the past;
Such as “I desire mercy and not sacrifice”- Matthew ch9 v13
Or “My house shall be called a house of prayer…but you have made it a den of robbers”- Matthew ch21 v13

He quotes the prophecies of the Old Testament God as the prophecies of his own God

For example, “Behold, I send my messenger before thy face”- Matthew ch11 v10
Or “You shall indeed hear but shall never understand”- Matthew ch13 v14
Or “This people honours me with their lips, but their heart is far from me”- Matthew ch15 v8
He claims himself to be fulfilling what God promised in Isaiah (Luke ch4 v21), and indeed everything “that is written of the Son of man by the prophets” (Luke ch18 v31).
He accepts as valid the prediction of the coming of Elijah- Matthew ch17 v11
And he not only acknowledges but repeats Daniel’s prophecy about the forthcoming “Abomination of desolation”- (Matthew ch24 v15

He accepts the laws of the Old Testament God as the laws of his own God

Thus he tells the healed leper to “offer for cleansing what God commanded”- Mark ch1 v43
He complains that the Pharisees neglect the commandment of God- Mark ch7 vv9-13
He discusses which are the most important of the commandments – Mark ch12 vv28-31
Even as he offers fresh understanding of the commandments, he denies any intention of abolishing them outright.

He identifies the Jews as the children of God

Thus he tells the Syrophoenician woman that he was “sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”, and that “the children” should be fed first- Matthew ch15 vv24-26
Similarly he tells his disciples, when he first sends them out to preach, that they should go only to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”- Matthew ch10 vv5-6
The Jews are “lost sheep”, not because they are worshipping the wrong God, but because they have wandered away from the God they’ve always worshipped. His function is therefore to call them back to the same God.

He calls them “children” when he is contrasting them with the Gentiles.
Even when he is warning them of the danger of being displaced by those coming “from east and west” (Matthew ch8 v11), he is still calling them “the sons of the kingdom”.
The whole point of the parable of the vineyard (Mark ch12 vv1-9) is that the relations of God with his people, in the Old Testament and through into the New Testament, are to be seen as a single continuous history.

The Jews themselves don’t understand him as offering a different God

When he first begins teaching in the synagogues, they are astonished only because “he taught with authority”- Mark ch1 v22
Their next response is that “they glorified God”- that is, the God they had always worshipped.
And when they’re struggling to give him a label, they continue to associate him with the same God;
“He is Elijah, or Jeremiah or one of the prophets.
“Can this be the Son of David?”
They would have reacted very differently if they believed he was pointing them towards a different God, but that thought does not occur to them.

Every time he uses the word “God”, he fails to say that he means a different one

“Whoever does the will of God…”- Mark ch3 v35
“No-one is good but God alone…”- Mark 10 v18
“Have faith in God…”- Mark ch11 v22
“Render to God the things that are God’s…” – Mark ch12 v17
“You do not know the power of God…”- Mark ch12 v24
“Heaven is the throne of God…”- Matthew ch4 v34
“You cannot serve God and mammon…”- Matthew ch6 v24
“God clothes the grass of the field…”- Matthew ch6 v30
“With God all things are possible…”- Matthew ch19 v26
With many other examples, including all references to the power of God, or the Spirit of God, or the kingdom of God.

Every time he uses the word “God”, his hearers will take it for granted that he’s talking about the God of Israel, the God of the Old Testament.
If that’s not what he means, then he has a moral obligation to say so.
He would also need to say so because the difference between the two Gods would be an essential part of his message.
Yet he never does.
The obvious conclusion is that there’s no need for him to be making any distinction, because he’s talking about the same God that his people have always known.

The message of Jesus to the Jews is never, at any time, “I’m offering you a better God than the one you’ve been worshipping”.
The message is always “We worship the same God, but I understand what he wants better than you do.”

God is the same, He happens to reveal Himself more and more as we all see in the New Covenant, God coming in person, Jesus Christ. The Catechism states it very well:


Paragraph 221
But St. John goes even further when he affirms that "God is love": (44) God's very being is love. By sending his only Son and the Spirit of Love in the fullness of time, God has revealed his innermost secret: (45) God himself is an eternal exchange of love, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he has destined us to share in that exchange.
He believes himself to be part of that single continuous history of the relation between God and his people.

44. 1 John 4:, 8, 16
45. 1 Cor 2:17-16. Eph 3:9-12

God is the same, He chooses to reveal Himself more and more as we see in the New Covenant by God coming in person, Jesus Christ. The Catechism states it very well:


Paragraph 221
But St. John goes even further when he affirms that "God is love": (44) God's very being is love. By sending his only Son and the Spirit of Love in the fullness of time, God has revealed his innermost secret: (45) God himself is an eternal exchange of love, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he has destined us to share in that exchange.
He believes himself to be part of that single continuous history of the relation between God and his people.

44. 1 John 4:8, 16
45. 1 Cor 2:17-16. Eph 3:9-12

www.scborromeo.org...

Luke 14
26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Your God tells you to hate your family to be his disciple. Do you hate your family? if not then you are not a follower of god.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

It also says to hate your own life. You need to hate the way life is and the world is in order to become spiritual.

If you are living a perfectly materialistic life and everyone else is materialistic, what is motivating you to go beyond material to seek the spirit? It's only when you suffer in life and you see how others and even how you yourself contribute to the pain and suffering, that you seek to overcome it with a spiritual answer.

So you must deny yourself (Luke 9:23). Only when people overcome greed and pride will the world have equality where we can actually live by treating others as we'd like to be treated (Luke 6:31).

Until then , people will keep feeling like they are better than everyone else (Pride), and continue to only be concerned with getting more and more not caring about others (Greed).

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Luke 14
26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

Your God tells you to hate your family to be his disciple. Do you hate your family? if not then you are not a follower of god.

Folks, remember when the prophesied divine "awakening" happens. No way did God give everyone the authority to
interpret Scripture, the written Word. He gave that authority to Church, she compiled the Bible.

In the Douay-Rheims Bible, the English translation of the first Bible which was written in Latin, the common language of the time. I can't read Latin, hence the need of the Douay-Rheims. www.drbo.org...
The footnotes are a great help, per the God given authority of the Church, the Faith, her interpretation of Luke 14:26.


God bless 3NLIGHT,

+ + +

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

[26] Hate not: The law of Christ does not allow us to hate even our enemies, much less our parents: but the meaning of the text is, that we must be in that disposition of soul, as to be willing to renounce, and part with every thing, how near or dear soever it may be to us, that would keep us from following Christ.

a reply to: colbe
Yes, it was obviously important to affirm the continuity, because it meets with so much resistance on this forum.
(I would recommend ignoring the interruptions of those who are trying to change the subject)

a reply to: colbe

No way did God give everyone the authority to interpret Scripture, the written Word.

If that was true, then Christianity itself would be invalid since the religious authority of Jesus' day did not give him the right to interpret scripture.
It would have been his "private interpretation".

The verse that talks about private interpretation in 2 Peter is about how scripture was written, not about how it is to be read and understood.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: colbe

No way did God give everyone the authority to interpret Scripture, the written Word.

If that was true, then Christianity itself would be invalid since the religious authority of Jesus' day did not give him the right to interpret scripture. It would have been his "private interpretation".

The verse that talks about private interpretation in 2 Peter is about how scripture was written, not about how it is to be read and understood.

Jim, I am for you, I love you. I pray for your conversion at God's "awakening" (Rev 6:15-17, 1 Cor 3:13). Pray for me too.

What? First, Jesus is God, I am going with His interpretation. The "religious authority of Jesus' day" less Joseph of Aramatheia and a few others came against Christ, they closed their eyes and hearts to Him.

God gave humanity a way, the Faith, *Roman Catholicism* to know the Truth and not go wrong with our fallen nature resulting in erroneous private judgment of Christ's teachings.

Protestant Reformers rejected the authority of the Church given to it by God, hence rejecting her teachings. Now and since 1517, new heresies are professed never taught by the Apostles and every Protestant decides themselves (private judgment) the meaning of their new supposed authority, the Bible which was compiled by the authority of the faith, Roman Catholicism. RC decided the Canon. Pay no attention, Protestants reject the Faith but keep the Bible, a Catholic book. Crazy....

Protestants spend their time arguing with Catholics, non-Christians and among themselves their view of the meaning of Scripture (private judgment). They can never be sure and it goes over their head, they have no authority to interpret Scripture. Every Protestant is arrogantly their own pope. Which split in Protestantism right? If you are a non-Catholic Christian and disagree with your current pastor, you leave to find another or start your own group/denomination/non-denomination/home church. See...no good fruit.

Paul predicted what happens to those who reject THE Faith. This is the fruit of each person deciding the meaning of Scripture (private judgment) which results in their deciding their own justification.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

King James Version (KJV)

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Douay-Rheims Bible

4:3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:

4:4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.

a reply to: colbe

And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables.

I think that is a pretty good way to describe the Catholic Church™ ® ©.