I never Knew you :(

Recently I've been in a few little tiffs about this subject... Ironically I found this story today...

Christians love to quote the verse when Jesus said "I never knew you" but not everyone actually knows what he meant...

Do you understand exactly who he meant?

I would say many do not, IF not most... and I've seen this verse misused many times on this very forum

This story will give you the idea... And by the way... This is one of the reasons I do not claim to be Christian...

I've experienced this myself from so called Christians...

A Pastor transformed himself into a homeless person and went to the 10,000-member church that he was to be introduced as the head pastor at that morning. He walked around his soon to be church for 30 minutes while it was filling with people for service, only 3 people out of the 7-10,000 people said hello to him. He asked people for change to buy food – no one in the church gave him change.

He went into the sanctuary to sit down in the front of the church and was asked by the ushers if he would please sit in the back. He greeted people to be greeted back with stares, dirty looks, and people looking down on him. As he sat in the back of the church, he listened to the church announcements and such. When all that was done, the elders went up and were excited to introduce the new pastor of the church to the congregation. “We would like to introduce to you our new Pastor.” The congregation looked around clapping with joy and anticipation. The homeless man sitting in the back stood up and started walking down the aisle. The clapping stopped with all eyes on him. He walked up the altar and took the microphone from the elders (who were in on this) and paused for a moment then he recited,

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

“For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ ‘The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.”

After he recited this, he looked towards the congregation and told them all what he had experienced that morning. Many began to cry, and many heads were bowed in shame. He then said, “Today I see a gathering of people, not a church of Jesus Christ. The world has enough people, but not enough disciples. When will YOU decide to become disciples?” He then dismissed service until next week.

Following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ should be more than just talk. It ought to be a lifestyle that others around you can love about you and share in.” Be a Christian all you want, but at least follow the teachings of Christ if you’re going to claim the title.

It really is disgusting how people act. Claim you are a certain way and preach to anyone that is near, but when it comes down to it they're all fake. He should've called off service for more than a week. Most of those people act holier-than-thou, but are just straight up scum. I hope they learn from this experience and actually start to practice what they preach.


Can't flag you since I'm new I guess, but great subject matter...

a reply to: RealLife
They're not ALL fake... but a good majority are...

They go to their churches to be seen of men... all they have to do is read Matthew 6 to see what Jesus thought of that

a reply to: Akragon

I agree with your assessment of what Jesus meant by that statement. But I think the story you've quoted here was a viral hoax if I remember correctly:

www.hoax-slayer.com...

It's possible the account was based on a true story however:

www.theleafchronicle.com...

I hope I'm not detracting from the spirit of your thread too much, because I agree with what you are trying to convey 100%

a reply to: DeadSeraph

Honestly I don't care if its a story by Mother goose...

This happens... Its happened to me...

Jesus did not say "reserve judgement and choose who deserves your help"...

a reply to: Akragon

Stories like this is why I lost my faith in most Christians and the entire faith itself.....


To be a true Christian means you cannot judge.

It goes against the entire premise of the faith.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DeadSeraph

Honestly I don't care if its a story by Mother goose...

This happens... Its happened to me...

Jesus did not say "reserve judgement and choose who deserves your help"...

It happened to me as well.

Sad to say but, a lot of being a "Christian" in today's standards means looking and dressing the part.

Actions don't mean too much if the first 2 pieces don't fit first.

Makes me a bit sad really.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: RealLife
They're not ALL fake... but a good majority are...

They go to their churches to be seen of men... all they have to do is read Matthew 6 to see what Jesus thought of that

Indeed there are many good and faithfully true Christians....they are just so few amongst those that just try and dress up.... and attempt to act the part.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DeadSeraph

Honestly I don't care if its a story by Mother goose...

This happens... Its happened to me...

Jesus did not say "reserve judgement and choose who deserves your help"...

Trust me, I agree, and have had a crisis of faith recently due to similar circumstances. Christians are the most repugnant thing about Christianity.

Nothing has shaken my faith more than those who claim to be Christ's followers yet judge, condemn, and turn their noses up at others. They become like the pharisees that Jesus spoke against:

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

There are many more examples, as you know.

I think it's also important to note that not only do these people turn up their noses at people in physical poverty, but also at those in spiritual poverty, and they condemn them out of self righteousness, doing more to harm the cause of Christ in their own sense of loftiness than any sin they rail against.

a reply to: Akragon

Most people who call themselves Christian have simply joined a social club. They were asked, by someone they barely knew to "repeat this prayer" and, not wanting to embarrass themselves or their acquaintance, have done so. Then they are told "you are one of us now".

The truth is, the whole "say the prayer" bit is not in the Bible at all.

Jesus was asking for a MAJOR commitment that was going to cost His followers something. He said "Take up your cross daily (an implement of torture, oppression and death) and follow me". He was plainly saying "this will cost you your life". Trouble is there are few real takers.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Akragon

Most people who call themselves Christian have simply joined a social club. They were asked, by someone they barely knew to "repeat this prayer" and, not wanting to embarrass themselves or their acquaintance, have done so. Then they are told "you are one of us now".

The truth is, the whole "say the prayer" bit is not in the Bible at all.

Jesus was asking for a MAJOR commitment that was going to cost His followers something. He said "Take up your cross daily (an implement of torture, oppression and death) and follow me". He was plainly saying "this will cost you your life". Trouble is there are few real takers.

Having faith in general is a commitment. However, you're implying works-based salvation; which isn't the way.

a reply to: JudgeEden


24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

We need more of this, as this pastor twisted their minds towards their own shame from their self-proclaimed righteousness.

This sort of act changes the hearts of men and the whole world.

a reply to: Akragon

You're not telling me anything I haven't heard before.

The verses you posted in no way state that you need to work for your salvation; or that your salvation is determined by how you live your life. That is nothing but lies.

There are a plethora of verses that speak of the simplicity of salvation

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: NOT of works, lest any man should boast.

Acts 16: 30-31 - ....Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Now, tell me, which of these imply any work at all? Which of these expound on salvation and say that you have to live a certain way, or abstain from certain things? Every instance someone came up to Jesus or the apostles asking about salvation, they never made it out to be about works. Most Christians take part in scripture twisting to promote this false belief.

The Bible does mention those who would make Salvation a chore to obtain though...

Galatians 1:6-9 - I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

How can one trouble another with the Gospel? How in the world is that possible? It's the message of salvation. Well, you can trouble one with the Gospel when you make it all about works and make people obsessive about their standing with God. You do that, by allowing them to doubt their salvation if their life doesn't quite match up to your standards. This is the only way you trouble someone with the Gospel.

Jesus did say...

Matthew 11:28 - Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

a reply to: JudgeEden

You're not telling me anything I haven't heard before. The verses you posted in no way state that you need to work for your salvation; or that your salvation is determined by how you live your life. That is nothing but lies

really...

There are a plethora of verses that speak of the simplicity of salvation

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

What is HIS word?

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT of works, lest any man should boast.

Paulish...

Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Please read the Original Post....

Now, tell me, which of these imply any work at all? Which of these expound on salvation and say that you have to live a certain way, or abstain from certain things? Every instance someone came up to Jesus or the apostles asking about salvation, they never made it out to be about works. Most Christians take part in scripture twisting to promote this false belief.

I am NOT Christian... please read the OP...

Christianity does not hold ANY rights to Jesus

The Bible does mention those who would make Salvation a chore to obtain though...

Galatians 1:6-9 - I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

More Paul...

I marvel that he curses ppl...

Jesus had something to say about that too!

How can one trouble another with the Gospel? How in the world is that possible? It's the message of salvation. Well, you can trouble one with the Gospel when you make it all about works and make people obsessive about their standing with God. You do that, by allowing them to doubt their salvation if their life doesn't quite match up to your standards. This is the only way you trouble someone with the Gospel

You want trouble?

Allow me...

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Jesus did say...

Matthew 11:28 - Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest

Right...

HE did not say... come to me you lazy SOB....

a reply to: Akragon

Lol, what!? Do you know how ridiculous you sound? I should have known you were "anti-Paul"

I fail to see how one can take so much from the Bible, and yet, Saul's conversion is thrown out like like a box of infected needles. You do realize that without Paul, a lot of the Gentiles (i.e. Most of the world) would not have received the Gospel message? That was his specific assignment.

Also, what was with all the scriptures you posted? What do those prove in the context of what I posted last?

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Oh yeah, that's right, Paul said this, didn't he? How convenient that every scripture which counters your work salvation nonsense is something you wont accept. You totally ignore the fact that the scriptures you posted earlier are not about salvation.

I like how you glazed right over John 3:16, by the way. Which pretty much confirms what Paul preached later on. Jesus and Paul do not contradict.

originally posted by: JudgeEden

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Akragon

Most people who call themselves Christian have simply joined a social club. They were asked, by someone they barely knew to "repeat this prayer" and, not wanting to embarrass themselves or their acquaintance, have done so. Then they are told "you are one of us now".

The truth is, the whole "say the prayer" bit is not in the Bible at all.

Jesus was asking for a MAJOR commitment that was going to cost His followers something. He said "Take up your cross daily (an implement of torture, oppression and death) and follow me". He was plainly saying "this will cost you your life". Trouble is there are few real takers.

Having faith in general is a commitment. However, you're implying works-based salvation; which isn't the way.

Umm, I was implying nothing of the sort, I was quoting Jesus.

So, what exactly are the "works" that you think Jesus was implying here then? Don't duck it, what did Jesus say and what did he mean?

To me, Jesus was talking about the level of commitment, not about doing any particular stuff. Attitude does not equal actions.

Honestly, does going to church and "praying the prayer" make you a disciple, or just a victim of social pressure?

How about this one, then: "Faith without works is dead".

Or this one: "because you are lukewarm, I will spit you out of my mouth".

Or this one (said to some who work wonders in His name): "go away, I never knew you".

Or perhaps He will say to you: "Well done you lazy and self centered non-servant. You have studiously avoided doing anything that might be construed as a good work, in the face of all that love and decency would require. Enter into your reward." Nah, don't think so!

The "gospel"(good news) of salvation is stated very clearly and succinctly in the scriptures.

Yahoshua…..which means Yahweh(the creator God) IS salvation..which means deliverance.

The Good News is Yahoshua will deliver ALL of mankind from the realm of death and imperception which is the meaning of hades which is wrongly translated as hell which is very wrongly believed is the eternal punishment.

That is what Paul was talking of perverting the gospel and that is exactly what billions have done by their false belief for centuries and never more so than in this time.The old and new testimony scriptures testify (state by proclaiming the Truth) one thing and one thing only…Yahoshua…..end of book.

ANY religion formed out of what was written to only testify of Yahoshua is only religion formed through mans false Belief System.Yahoshua DID NOT come to teach a "new religion" with a "new Law" Yahoshua's only purpose was to deliver ALL of mankind which the foundation has been finished.Salvation is a process not an event.It is the nature of how living things grow.

What salvation is NOT all about is a method to "become" a better person.NONE can make themselves better in ANYWAY..that is a delusion.The process of salvation is happening "too" everyone by the natural experience of life it is not being caused by them at all.Salvation is like the conception of a human.A seed(spermatozoon) is sown into a womb mating with an egg to become a zygote that splits cells and developes into an embryo which forms all of the body parts and eventually is born(delivered) out of the womb into an active life in the physical realm /world.

The seed and the egg existed in the physical realm but it wasn't until they were "married"(which is the core meaning of zygote) did the conception of a "new" life begin.That is what is happening to mankind.They are not "reborn" as a seed and an egg of a human again they for lack of another fitting term they "evolve".

Yahoshua is the "seed" of the new life.He was the Son and in effect is now the husband/Father of ALL of mankind(when they are finally conceived and born anew).That Life will be a new life not a re-incarnation back into the physical realm life where EVERYTHING dies.That life was (is) the "spirit of man"(from the 1st Adam).The "new life" will be of the seed…. Yahoshua…. the 2nd Adam and will enter into the Kingdom of the creator God realm where nothing dies because it is ONLY life.

That is the crux of the GOOD news.The spirit(life) of man(first Adam) is temporal and will die but the new life of "christ"(which means the power of the creator God…LIFE) will not …it is ONLY Life.There is NOTHING anyone can do to earn,learn or attain it in any form.There is no ascension or re-incarnation or born again religion etc,etc that causes any of it.It is the natural process ordained by the creator God and ALL will receive it… no exceptions.

There is no place or construct beyond the physical realm that is the eternal of punishment of hell nor is there a place that is "heaven". There is only the Kingdom of the creator God.EVERYTHING exist inside of it and All of mankind will be the "heavens" the temple of the creator God where "LIFE"(spirit) will live.The whole process is being caused by the creator God with NO "mans" help at all.

The fact is Yahoshua said he will say to many I never knew you because they do not know the Good News at all.They believe another gospel that is not a gospel as Paul said.It is the gospel of mans "religion" their "personal" Belief System" of "their religion" which is the realm of imperception where nothing is known..only believed falsely.All of mankind will be delivered from that also but most (the many )will not be in the physical realm.

Mans religion is their path of life of how they live(the amalgamation of all their experiences) it forms the wide road that leads to the gate of destruction.That is mans crucifixion …the destruction of their "religion".It is called the baptism of fire and when it is done after death is the lake of fire of the book of Revelation.

Some of mankind(the chosen few)..who are only the apostles of Yahoshua… eventually entered thru the process of the gate of destruction(of their Belief System religion) in the physical realm to "know" the way and the Truth.That is the baptism Yahoshua said they would be baptized with.It was only given to them to "know" the mystery of the Kingdom of the creator God while in the physical realm.Yet they could not "cause" the same "revelation" from the Father for others they could only "proclaim" the Good News which they did and as Yahoshua said many would not obey(which means hear/perceive) in the physical realm.It is only the seed of Yahoshua to the many.The parable of the seed and soil was literally about the disciples becoming Apostles (the firsfruits seeds) of Yahoshua.

Everything is a looooooooong process.Mankind is only in the beginning stages of the conception of life.In effect mankind has not even been born yet.They are dreaming in the matrix/womb of the physical realm of "life" they have not entered into yet but they ALL will…and that's the Good News... for ALL of mankind.

a reply to: chr0naut

Taking up your cross only means that you have to be willing to endure some things for your faith. These things will vary from person to person; and will even vary in intensity. It is not necessarily, works.

As for faith without works, the scripture you're referencing is speaking mostly about how your works are evidence to other PEOPLE that you're saved. Not necessarily to God. You realize the opposite was spoken of also. Works without faith is meaningless. Faith is evidence of salvation when it comes to God; works are evidence when it comes to everyone else. Both are necessary, yes; but when you shine a spotlight on works only, you create an unhealthy and unbalanced believer who could very well turn into a Pharisee.

I know, because I used to believe like this.

a reply to: Rex282

I wish I could give you 2 or 3 stars for that. You blew my mind. You took the biblical (faith/theoretical) and brought it into the quantum and metaphysical realms of perception. This is my first mindsplosion on ATS, so thanks for that

Let me just comment on the OP real quick. I don't even like the word Christianity or Christ as it has too many negative connotations for me. In fact the whole idea of being a "Christian" is a human archetype, entirely unnecessary and unrelated to the message of the scriptures. Rex also points out the real name of our savior, Yahoshua. "Jesus" is a bastardization of his true name.

Rex, I would really love to pick your brain if you wouldn't mind. The last time I tried to PM someone it said I was only allowed to message staff. I don't know anyone who has so eloquently described such an accurate portion of my own belief before. Maybe you could PM me?