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The God of Jesus, the God of the Old Testament

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posted on May, 27 2014 @ 02:32 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Yes... but the "god" they worshipped was a destroyer...

Now that is acceptable if you believe "revelation"... but that isn't a gospel, nor was it accepted by the so called "church" in the first place...

Jesus was not a "destroyer" of anything... except maybe this old god...

yet he is called "God"....


edit on 27-5-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 27 2014 @ 02:42 AM
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a reply to: Akragon
I have to refer you back to the OP.
In everything he says, Jesus identifies his God with the God of the Old Testament.
If Jesus says they are the same God, then they must be the same God, for anyone who follows Jesus.
Whatever we say about the relationship has to start from that point.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 02:54 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

He doesn't say they are the same God, he refers to the scripture they know...

Written by men... with hints of the True God scattered though out...

Why do you think Jesus literally cherry picks the OT...


edit on 27-5-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 03:27 AM
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originally posted by: Akragon
Written by men... with hints of the True God scattered though out...

This is exactly the same distinction I was making in my series on "God's Law".
I suggested that they had a "mixed" origin, combining God's contribution with a more human contribution.
Jesus himself makes that distinction, when he separates "they shall be one flesh" (which comes from God), from "you can get rid of your wives" (which comes from human "hardness of heart")

We can treat the rest of the Old Testament in just the same way.
Since you admit that the contributions of the True God can be found in the Old Testament, we are saying the same thing with a small difference in labelling.
I am saying that Jesus identifies his God with the God of the Old Testament, that is with the True God whom even you can find in the Old Testament.
As for the aspects of the Old Testament which don't come from the True God, I would identify them with the human contribution.
In other words, there is no need to distinguish between two different gods at all.
We just need to distinguish between what comes from God and what comes from man.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 03:39 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI
Brother.. the problem here is... You're complicating things, when they're very simple...

God IS Love... IF love is not displayed... it is NOT God...

You say Jesus is God...

Love = Jesus... there is nothing that can relate to Jesus in the OT but words....

Jesus was Action... he Led by example

Love Requires Action, or is it nothing more then words...


edit on 27-5-2014 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 06:50 AM
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originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DISRAELI

Yes... but the "god" they worshipped was a destroyer...

Now that is acceptable if you believe "revelation"... but that isn't a gospel, nor was it accepted by the so called "church" in the first place...

Jesus was not a "destroyer" of anything... except maybe this old god...

yet he is called "God"....



Now to be fair, Jesus did quote OT prophecies concerning His return at the End of the Age, that line up with the 6th Seal and 7th Vial of Revelation. When He returns, the Baptism of Fire will destroy all who reject Him. Those are the words of John the Baptist, that Jesus restates towards the latter half of Matt 24.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 09:10 AM
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I know no evidemce that the Jews of the time made any distinction between the God they had always worshipped and the God who created the world.



originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DISRAELI

The gnostics did though, and they do predate Christ...



So did the Essene, on both accounts! They believed that the Torah had been corrupted by the laws of men, and that the temple priests were evil to their core.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 03:16 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

It's more important, from my viewpoint, to establish what Jesus IS doing, viz. offering a better understanding of the God they worship already
If you did what Jesus said to do, then you were indirectly worshiping God, or so you would think, reading the context of the New Testament as a whole.
If you reverse the logic, and looked at someone like the Samaritan in Jesus' parable, who according to Jewish thinking, worshiped another god, he was actually worshiping the True God, even if he didn't realize it.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 03:21 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Now to be fair, Jesus did quote OT prophecies concerning His return at the End of the Age, that line up with the 6th Seal and 7th Vial of Revelation. When He returns, the Baptism of Fire will destroy all who reject Him. Those are the words of John the Baptist, that Jesus restates towards the latter half of Matt 24.
Jesus brought about the end of the old age (the destruction of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans in 70 AD) and brought about the beginning of the new age (the creation of the church).
Revelation is just a way to describe the same thing but in "spiritual" terms.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 05:23 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

originally posted by: jmdewey60
The world exists so someone made it.

Yes, but he's quoting from the scriptures which describe the God of Israel as doing it.
That was my point.
In the OT, the Creator is also the God who is dealing with Abraham and Moses and the prophets, and Jesus was accepting and working with that standpoint.

Jesus was a Jew, so he quotes the Jewish scripture.

Yes, he treats the God of the Jews as identical with his own God.
That’s the essence of this thread.

That is not so clear (that the person Moses was dealing with was the same person responsible for the world's creation), so I think Jesus avoids getting into that.

I think it would be more true to say that it doesn’t even occur to him that anyone might want to distinguish between them.
The identity was clear enough to anyone reading the OT scriptures.
I could have quoted Isaiah ch45, which combines “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel” (v11) with “Thus says the Lord, who created the heavens, who formed the earth” (v18).
I could have quoted the Psalms almost at random to make the same point.
He doesn’t “avoid getting into” the issue, because he sees no issue that needs to be avoided.
He and his hearers understand him to be talking about the God of Israel, the Creator.

I have to think that this was why the Son of God was a Jew in the first place, because they had that (commandment to love your neighbor) in the Law.
Here were people who had the right idea, if you were someone like Jesus who could highlight the good parts.

I saw no need to “answer” this, because I could detect no conflict with what I was saying.
I even expressed agreement with your comment about Jesus “highlighting” the good parts of the Law, and remarked about the similar thoughts in my own thread series on the Law.

He quotes from [the statement in Exodus] but does not verify the veracity of it, but goes on to make his own independent claim about who and what he thinks God is.

His claim about God is not independent at all.
It is a logical deduction from what he has quoted, and entirely dependent upon it.

He is quoting the Prophets in both cases (“I desire mercy and not sacrifice” and “My house shall be called a house of prayer…but you have made it a den of robbers”).

Yes, I know, that is my point exactly.
He quotes the prophecies given by the Old Testament God as the prophecies of his own God, and thereby identifies the two.

I think what he is saying is that the metaphorical keys are being taken out of their hands.

Yes, I agree.
And the metaphorical keys had only been in their hands in the first place as the gift of the God who was now working through himself.

Jesus told the teachers of the law and the high priests, in the temple that they did not know God.

He also told them that they WOULD know God if only they would read the scriptures properly.
"You have the keys of the kingdom, but you do not use them".
The scriptures produced by the same God would have told them about himself.
Their problem is not that they are worshipping the wrong God, but that they're failing to understand the God they've always been worshipping.

He is also in gentile Galilee speaking in Greek, saying, "Theos", and fails to mention that he isn't talking about Zeus.

Gentile Galilee? I wonder if you are unduly influenced by that phrase in Isaiah, “Galilee of the Gentiles”.
In the time of Jesus, thanks partly to the campaigns of the Maccabees, it was very much Jewish Galilee.
If you regard it as Gentile territory, then you miss the point of the episode of the Syro-Phoenician woman, which took place when he had temporarily “crossed the border” into the Gentile lands.
“I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.
If he thought Galilee was a Gentile region, he would have refused to work there, for exactly the same reason.
He was working in Galilee only because he regarded them as part of the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”.
He was, throughout, talking to the Jews, and identifying their own historic God with his own God.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 06:44 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

He quotes the prophecies given by the Old Testament God as the prophecies of his own God, and thereby identifies the two.
"Old Testament" is a later Christian construct.
Maybe you think you can smoosh it all together, but that wasn't what it was in Jesus' day.
The prophecies could be actually older than what is designated as "Torah".
Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that they "don't know what they worship" even thought they had the same Torah as the Jews.
You could have had a situation where Jesus saw certain prophecies as legitimate, and others as earlier insertions into the collection of scripture, so that the "god" in these writings only exists in some, as compared to the idea that every single verse was imbued with the same spiritual power that comes from being directly connected to God.
Jesus disconnects entirely from all the priestly goings on of the temple, other than a pragmatic recognition of their power to exert authority within its precincts.

Gentile Galilee?
Matthew 4:12-16
When Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, he withdrew to Galilee. Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali— to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah:

“Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali,
the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles
the people living in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death
a light has dawned.”

(2011 NIV)
edit on 27-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 10:48 PM
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A random thought:
"before Abraham was, I am".
What if Jesus was saying that "before the Book of Genesis was written, there was already existing prophecy about me".

An example of later (maybe false) prophecy was Ezekiel, which has its climax in a description of a temple that maybe Herod was trying to fulfill.

John 2:19
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
(2011 NIV)
This may be Jesus saying forget all that "temple" nonsense.

Matthew 12:42
The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.
(2011 NIV)
The myth was that Solomon had magical powers that he used to build the temple.
Jesus is here maybe saying that it doesn't really matter because the temple may as well just go away if it was just a slaughter house.

The real prophets were saying the same thing, then you had "Moses" pop up that glorifies slaughter, and Jesus somehow knew what was up, even though it took science this long to catch up with him, on the dating of the books of the Old Testament

edit on 27-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 01:29 PM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
"Old Testament" is a later Christian construct.

The name is a Christian construct. The books themselves are not.
Jesus was quoting from the collection which he and his hearers called "the scriptures".
Under modern conditions, the term "Old Testament" is a more effective way of communicating what I'm talking about, but the exact title hardly matters.
The point is that Jesus was quoting from them, and identifying the God found there as his own God.

You could have had a situation where Jesus saw certain prophecies as legitimate, and others as earlier insertions into the collection of scripture, so that the "god" in these writings only exists in some, as compared to the idea that every single verse was imbued with the same spiritual power that comes from being directly connected to God.

All this speculation is really beside the point.
He referes to a number of passages which his hearers knew, and identifies the God found there as his own God.

Jesus disconnects entirely from all the priestly goings on of the temple, other than a pragmatic recognition of their power to exert authority within its precincts

This does not alter the fact that when Jesus quotes from scripture, he identifies the God found there as his own God.

Gentile Galilee?

Yes, as I suspected, you picked up this idea from the phrase in Isaiah, as quoted in Matthew.
But the passage in Isaiah was describing the situation in the time of Isaiah.
I did try to explain to you that the situation had been changed by the time that Jesus was born, and Galilee was once again a Jewish community.
When Jesus preached and healed in Galilee, he was preaching and healing amongst the Jews.
If you think otherwise, then, I must repeat, you are missing the point of the episode of the Syro-Phoenician woman.
This took place when he had briefly left Galilee and "crossed the border" into the territory of Tyre and Sidon.
He was reluctant to speak to her, and explained that he was sent only to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
That comment makes no sense at all unless Galilee was part of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel".
That is, part of the Jewish community.




edit on 28-5-2014 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 01:42 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

The deluded heretics can say whatever they want,

the FACT is Jesus said if we love Him, we'll Love the Father, the LORD our God.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment.

See where Jesus is saying to love the LORD your God with all your being? Yeah, the LORD, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and Jacob.

Heretics can claim to love Jesus all day long, as long as they blaspheme His Father, they are showing they love nothing but their father, the devil.

Lord have mercy



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 01:45 PM
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a reply to: godlover25

Might I remind you Jesus did say, "Those who are not against me are with me"

Just because people don't believe your version of Christianity does not mean they do not believe in Jesus...




posted on May, 28 2014 @ 02:04 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

He also said those who are not with Him are against Him,

and considering He and the Father are One,

do you think Your with The LORD?

if you're not, your not with Jesus either, at least not in reality.

de·lu·sion
noun \di-ˈlü-zhən, dē-\

: a belief that is not true : a false idea

her·e·sy
noun \ˈher-ə-sē, ˈhe-rə-\

: a belief or opinion that does not agree with the official belief or opinion of a particular religion

Chris·tian·i·ty
noun \ˌkris-chē-ˈa-nə-tē, ˌkrish-, -ˈcha-nə-, ˌkris-tē-ˈa-\

: the religion that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ
the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 02:33 PM
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originally posted by: godlover25
The deluded heretics can say whatever they want,

Oh dude .... deluded .... go look in a mirror ....
And 'heretics' ... that always makes me laugh.

the FACT is Jesus said if we love Him, we'll Love the Father, the LORD our God.

Sure. Love and trust the Father. And the Father is NOT represented by the erroneous 'prophecies' that are claimed in the Old Testament.

Its obnoxious of you to go around screaming that people don't love God simply because those people can see through the bunk that people 4,000 years ago tried to pass off as visions from God.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 02:36 PM
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originally posted by: godlover25
and considering He and the Father are One,

So obviously those in the Old Testament who claimed to be speaking for God the Father .. were not. Use your head. Look at the difference between Jesus and the made up 'god entity' in the Old Testament. If you can't see the vast difference ... then there is no talking to you.

Just because a 'prophet' claimed to hear God tell him to mass murder and rape people, that doesn't mean it was God who was talking. And Jesus wouldn't do such a thing. Therefore, common sense says, that if Jesus who is God wouldn't order humans to mass murder and rape, then God The Father wouldn't either.

Major 'DUH!' factor!!



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 02:43 PM
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a reply to: FlyersFan

I have an honest question for you FlyersFan,

how many times a day do you lose your anger? How many times a day do you not do the right thing? How many times in your life have you thought of hurting others? Be honest, I'm gonna try to go somewhere with this



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 02:47 PM
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a reply to: godlover25
You can't give those emotions to God. He's above that.

OBVIOUSLY the prophets, being fallible human beings, got a lot wrong. They interjected their own emotions into their 'prophecies'. The 'go kill and go rape' orders from 'god' in the Old Testament came from the humans, not from God. Jesus would never say to do that. He is Mercy and Love and since He and the Father are One, then God the Father is also Mercy and Love. Turn the other cheek kind of love.

The prophets got it wrong. They are humans and make mistakes. God never makes a mistake and he doesn't lose his temper. It doesn't work that way.




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