UKRAINE: Enough CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE to suggest Russian Government Incitement?

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

I'm utterly disgusted and am ashamed to call myself an American anymore.

Don't do that, just think. We are on one side: people. The enemy loses his mask day by day...

Let us be absolutely clear, the struggle in the Ukraine is not between the US and Russia, it is between a NATO-imposed junta composed of neo-liberal oligarchs and fascists on one side and the industrial workers and their local militias and democratic councils on the other. The former defends and obeys the IMF and Washington; the latter relies on the productive capacity of local industry and rules by responding to the majority.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

Yes redit is good but best not to link one account to another, people can and do watch people on forums like this and you should not make it easy for them.

Bye the way just watched the news and russia has asked Kiev to use part of it's money from the west to meet its gas bill ($4bn but not all at once) and wants money up front for any more gas which seems quite fair to me given that Kiev now has some cash. Goodbye to any cheap deals that they had with Russia

a reply to: sosobad

ognestrel - gunshot wound - огнестрел

padenie - падение - fall

ozhogi - ожоги- burn

otravlenie - отравление - poisoning

poisoning gazom - gas poisoning (?)

originally posted by: maghun
a reply to: sosobad

ognestrel - gunshot wound - огнестрел

padenie - падение - fall

ozhogi - ожоги- burn

otravlenie - отравление - poisoning

poisoning gazom - gas poisoning (?)

Yes I think you are right but honestly i do not know, I'm gonna have a look for more sources.

a reply to: maghun


Only 14 names on this one, it is an earlier list I think.


1. Unsociable persons Andrey, 1978—gunshot wound,

2. Brozhevsky Andrey, 1987–falling with top floors,

3. Bulls Victor, 1956–falling with top floors,

4. Varenikina Anna, 1955–I choked in to smoke,

5. Egorsky Nikolay, 1976–gunshot wound,

6. Zhulkov Alexander, 1968–gunshot wound,

7. Ivanov Igor, 1987–gunshot wound,

8. Guelder-roses Anatoly, 1976–falling with top floors,

9. Markin Vyacheslav, 1969, deputy of a regional council–I died in to hospital from wounds,

10. Mishin Sergey, 1986—I was lost in fire,

11. Negaturov Vadim, 1959, Odessa poet–I burned down in fire,

12. Nikitenko Maxim, 1982–falling with top floors,

13. Petrov Gennady, 1985–gunshot wound,

14. Sadovnichy Alexander, 1954—I burned down in fire.

It should be noted that community OdesSOS on the page on a social network published information on Sergey Mishin, as about the inhabitant of the village Koblevo of the Nikolaev area

news.pn...

Looks like this thread has already attracted a lot of pro Russian supporters you have to take your hat of to them really.. Fighting a losing battle to the death


It's funny now pro Russian supporters won't talk about Ukraine's continuous attempts to join the EU, and NATO and the Ukrainian presidential elections

This would clearly ruin Russia's propaganda and attempts to annex yet more I,Iranian soil with a handful of pro Russian inhabitants

On that note, I couldn't agree more with the OP

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

I have been saying this all along, until I was blue in the face, the Russians caused the insurrection, Putin put Yanukovych and the Kiev government in place, then used their own intel assets to infiltrate the Maidon and incite the revolt, meanwhile we know that Yanukovych was impeached unanimously, so if someone can tell me how he fled to Russia, with 32 billion dollars (which really was Putin money or what was left of it to pull this all off) , because now he is working with Putin's government (with disregard of his what would be seen as a clear indictment and conviction of his incompetence and corruption) and is now funding Pro Russians, if you ask me anyone that can't even smell this, they are fooling themselves.
Russia had everything to gain, one was the most strategic, which was the base in Crimea, once they annexed that base they no longer are renters of the base they now own that territory, also they gained control and power to the fuel coming in and out of not only the Ukraine but to Europe, many have said the West incited this, but honestly if you think about it, the FSB(KGB) are very adept at spying and security, they would have known about any Western intelligence or infiltrators, if you ask me, Putin is fully responsible, but there is a great chance that the West knew about these actions.

1 of the other telling things, was look at how quick they set up the Crimean elections and vote, and after the fact some are calling those results into question, they gave no time for Kiev to legitimately challenge even conducting such a vote on their sovereign land, this is all Putin and people should really wake up to this fact, this not the West that has caused the Crimean situation, Putin made the first move by setting the purposely weak Kiev government to begin with, then purposely making it implode and then causing the unrest with agents.

originally posted by: TritonTaranis
Looks like this thread has already attracted a lot of pro Russian supporters you have to take your hat of to them really.. Fighting a losing battle to the death


It's funny now pro Russian supporters won't talk about Ukraine's continuous attempts to join the EU, and NATO and the Ukrainian presidential elections

This would clearly ruin Russia's propaganda and attempts to annex yet more I,Iranian soil with a handful of pro Russian inhabitants

On that note, I couldn't agree more with the OP

Why is speaking out against those in power in Kiev pro-Russian?

a reply to: ALoveSupreme
Full disclosure I am more of a Crescent fan.

What if it's really just a civil war with the east and west pumping their influence in making it worse? People make it sound like Putin has the power of a god. If there were no problems either side couldn't make this happen.

a reply to: ALoveSupreme
Full disclosure I am more of a Crescent fan.

What if it's really just a civil war with the east and west pumping their influence in making it worse? People make it sound like Putin has the power of a god. If there were no problems either side couldn't make this happen.

a reply to: Luthierbrown

Double headed eagle, two faces, Putin has the endorsement to make his moves, but others are in on it, that is for sure, but I can't be one of the many converted Putin fans, that is a born American, I will never buy that BS or be waving a flag for the former hammer and sickle sorry, and the scariest thing is, many of those who are in that fan club, hold a dual citizenship by proxy, calling themselves patriots and also FSB, former KGB agent sympathizers, you just can't have it both ways, sorry!

a reply to: ALoveSupreme

I have not even gone past your post's title. Why ? Because legally, cicumstancial has no more wieght than hear say in a Court of law.

m.youtube.com...

This is a link to a video of Right Sector/Ultras going through the building after the fire and what they are doing to people, it is bout an hour long, skip it on from the start to see it.

Warning Graphic Content that is the reason for not embedding

a reply to: phinubian

I don't understand your response. I am no fan of Putin. However, if you break it down to classical morality there is no "right" side. Ethics was thrown out when foreign policy became so covert after the us absorbed the nazi's in project paper clip. Since then we used the gestapo's research and techniques to create all kinds of political unrest for useful gains. I just don't think there are good or bad guys anymore in government at the top.

originally posted by: 13th Zodiac
a reply to: ALoveSupreme

I have not even gone past your post's title. Why ? Because legally, cicumstancial has no more wieght than hear say in a Court of law.

This is not a trial. We're doing analysis.

Read the post. We're being very open-minded about everything.

If you don't like it, don't post.

Thanks!

Please, I really want this to not devolve into the same shouting match with everybody throwing links at each other with no cohertent structure for analysis.

So save your pro-Kiev or Pro-Russian opinion pieces for other threads.

I created this thread to examine things dialectically -- that is, look at events which are agreed upon by both sides and examine their opposite interpretations and ask each other questions.

I happened to choose the greater question of whether the Russians are inciting the imminent civil war in Ukraine. I did NOT answer it!

Please respect the structure I have put forth and try to either answer the questions or speak in detail (with sources) about the individual events.

originally posted by: sosobad
a reply to: maghun


Only 14 names on this one, it is an earlier list I think.


1. Unsociable persons Andrey, 1978—gunshot wound,

2. Brozhevsky Andrey, 1987–falling with top floors,

3. Bulls Victor, 1956–falling with top floors,

4. Varenikina Anna, 1955–I choked in to smoke,

5. Egorsky Nikolay, 1976–gunshot wound,

6. Zhulkov Alexander, 1968–gunshot wound,

7. Ivanov Igor, 1987–gunshot wound,

8. Guelder-roses Anatoly, 1976–falling with top floors,

9. Markin Vyacheslav, 1969, deputy of a regional council–I died in to hospital from wounds,

10. Mishin Sergey, 1986—I was lost in fire,

11. Negaturov Vadim, 1959, Odessa poet–I burned down in fire,

12. Nikitenko Maxim, 1982–falling with top floors,

13. Petrov Gennady, 1985–gunshot wound,

14. Sadovnichy Alexander, 1954—I burned down in fire.

It should be noted that community OdesSOS on the page on a social network published information on Sergey Mishin, as about the inhabitant of the village Koblevo of the Nikolaev area

news.pn...

Thanks!

Even though this is only partial. it is till good to find another list.

I guess we are to assume that all their nationalities is Ukrainian?

Originally there was talk of 15 being foreign nationals but I suspect that might have been propaganda by the Kyiv government.

originally posted by: ALoveSupreme

originally posted by: 13th Zodiac
a reply to: ALoveSupreme

I have not even gone past your post's title. Why ? Because legally, cicumstancial has no more wieght than hear say in a Court of law.

This is not a trial. We're doing analysis.

Read the post. We're being very open-minded about everything.

If you don't like it, don't post.

Thanks!

Yes it is! Trial by media bloggers.Your title, ain't open minded. Keep ya stinking post.

a reply to: Luthierbrown

If you check my posts, I am in 100% agreement, I know all about the Hegelian tactics, the genesis of the Bolshevik revolution and those tactics, including links, do some searching you'll see I fully understand your post, ok onto my post so I can bring clarity for you since you do not seem to understand.
I posted this reply, because there are many so called patriots building their agenda around this and placing all blame on the West, in other words there are individuals with malevolent intent within our own country that buy the one side or the other and unfortunately there majority are Putin fans and the my friend is a danger because if they truly believe there is only one side to this, that is the ripe staging ground for revolution, there you have maybe you can understand why I wrote what I did, there's a lot of sheep that are being mislead down the wrong path that have the potential cause instability or civil unrest based on untruth and taking this hook line and sinker.

originally posted by: sosobad
Why is speaking out against those in power in Kiev pro-Russian?

It is not.

Just as it isn't "anti-American", "anti-Patriotic", or "anti-Western" to criticise the IMF, or our own Oligarchies, or EU/€Z-Centralism at home.
Using those labels is a strategy to create division, sow pre-judgements, and discredit and stifle critical thinking.