Why are there soo many Fatal police shootings??

There is a pretty good reason they don't shoot at extremities. Go outside and run through traffic...have a near miss or two then walk into the range and see how well you shoot with adrenaline coursing through you...now add the stress of the actual situation and imagine shooting a leg or arm. That's why they don't do it. However I will say I was told by a swat sniper with a lot of active shooter experience that if their medical officer okays it they can shoot to stop an armed suspect from fleeing. But the med officer will usually only okay something like that if he is confident he can trust his shooter and his medical skills enough...so it's not for everyday situations.

originally posted by: bringmecoffee

originally posted by: VoidHawk

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: VoidHawk

I have faced people with baseball bats, knives and glass bottles and glasses when I ran pubs, I didn't need any weapon to defend myself and others.
If the guy was scared of a guy with a shovel he shouldn't be police.

EDIT: great minds eh? Akragon

I wasn't saying they should shoot people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Akrogon asked the question

I have just one question...
What the hell happened to shooting said person in the leg IF shooting someone is necessary??

I was repeating the answer that I got when I asked the same question. I thought that was obvious?

Shooting them in the leg isn't potentially lethal? You can bleed out from your femoral artery pretty darn quick.

Shoot someone in the leg and they at least have a very good chance of making it to a hospital alive!
Shoot them in the head or chest and their chances are greatly reduced.

Dress cops up in body Armour give them tanks and give them the terrorist speech and they are good to kill.....whoops I meant go.

We noticed the change in our city about 10 years ago, used to be the cops showed up wearing just shirts and trousers and in the hot weather shorts too.

Now they don Vests, wear Jackboots and the colour of their outfit is all ....ALL black so as to prime them up and scare the crap out of Joe public.

The cops here used to look just like the mailman or the milkman if your old enough to remember, Now they look like storm troopers and act like them too.
I remember a thread awhile back about this same issue and everybody agreed that the local cop cars in their cities went from white/ blue/ etc to straight black.

Intimidating times we live in now!

S&F
Regards, Iwinder

If your a fat a.. Lazy cop that can't bob and weeve.a reply to: bringmecoffee

Yea same here they look more and more like storm troopers everyday!a reply to: Iwinder

a reply to: VoidHawk

Shoot someone in the leg and they at least have a very good chance of making it to a hospital alive! Shoot them in the head or chest and their chances are greatly reduced.

Agreed but the head shot thing is strictly Hollywood stuff unless its a very close situation or a sniper.

At the same time I can relate to some situations where cops do shoot and ask later, not too many but I can relate to one time that this applies.

Regards, Iwinder

a reply to: minusinfinity

I agree with the monkey boy. There are less than lethal weapons at an officers disposal. If you point a gun at a cop and the cop shoots and kills you then too bad. If you point a shovel at a cop and said cop shoots and kills you then I think we have a serious problem folks.

Bingo in my books, well said and I could not agree more with you.

Regards, Iwinder

a reply to: Iwinder

A showel to the head equals death, not necessarily but i wouldn't like to have a person in front of me armed with a showel, as there are no info on this situation, i can't judge it.

This is way out of hand all over the world!!

Nah, not really but nice try.

In my part of the world It happens the cops shoot but a kill is very rare, maybe once every 3 years or something and the last time we had a police officer killed on duty was in 1995.

The cops are all carrying.

Though the population is only 5 million something, but we still have some wanna be gangsters, home invasions and a small number of guns on the loose.

The crime in the US is just to chaotic, cops don't know when someone gonna pull on them so the main factor of police shootings are FEAR combined with the "protect and serve", and that goes for a showel wielding "madman" to.

Just don't bring a shovel to a gunfight.....The police are out of control, I agree 100%.......... But what do we do about it? There are ammunition and reloading shortages, and so forth. Maybe that's why the shovel was involved, was out of ammo..........?????????

There are many people discussing this, so I hope you don't mind if I ask one of you to provide a link to statistics showing a significant increase in the number of police killings per 100,000 arrests. The years 2000-2014 might be a good place to start.

How about the number of attacks on police over the same time period? Do they lead or follow the shooting statistics?

Anybody happen to know what percentage of arrests involving even the display of a firearm, let alone it's use?

Of course a "bad shooting" is a bad shooting, but does anyone have actual statistics?

As an aside, back in the '80s two different federal agencies taught me shoot to kill. Drawing the gun was seen as an escalation, and so, risky. But if you drew, you had to be ready to kill for several reasons.

1.) If you miss a leg, you will send the shot through his body or off into the distance where it may hit anything or anybody.

2.) As many Medal of Honor winners can tell you, one shot, even from a military weapon, could very possibly fail to stop your target. That's why "double taps" to the chest or "center of mass" were the standard.

3.) It's been pointed out, but in any of those situations, it is almost always impossible for the shooter to remain calm. Even misses on the target range happen, endangering bystanders and the shooter.

4.) If the target is armed with anything at all, and he's not stopped, but stunned or disoriented, he may attack anyone who is close.

5.) if the target is manic, on drugs, alcohol, or in an unusual rage, it's going to take more to stop him.

Let me tell you about one "shoot - no shoot" exercise. The candidate receives a report, verified by local police, that shots are being fired into traffic from a hill by a highway overpass. There have been several crashes as people were hit by gunfire. The candidate goes up to the hill side which is fairly large and has some trees nearby and spots a single adult male. The candidate calls on the man to stop where he is and lie down. The man refuses and keeps coming towards the candidate. No matter what is said in the next few seconds, the man keeps coming. When he gets close, he reaches behind and pulls out something the candidate can't see. As the man's hand starts clearing his jacket, we see the leading edge of a black, angular object.

What then? Almost always, the candidate fires. I think I would have. Approaching the body, he discovers the object was the back of an open wallet. Inside, it says, "I am deaf."

I think there is a lot that some of the posters in this thread are missing.

a reply to: charles1952

Where the Hell have you been lately...

Perhaps a warning shot fired at said persons feet might stop him... and save a life?

chances are the bullet will disintegrate if it hits the ground anyways, so theres little worry about it hitting someone

a reply to: Akragon

Dear akragon,

My happiness is almost complete, knowing that you're still here. Why I've been gone is a semi-interesting story. For now, I'll assure you that it did not involve confinement to any governmental facility. (Although three doctors STRONGLY supported the move.)

You know, that shooting at the feet business may be a good idea. I hope you won't mind if I admit to some doubts.

I think we're going to be playing the odds with the shoot into the ground business. Some questions that I don't have the answers to include:

Will it stop a guy if he's running full tilt at you, or is on drugs?

Will the bullet fragment or ricochet?

If it fragments, will it hit anyone nearby?

Will it cause hesitation while the officer decides whether to shoot the ground or the target? (Might we get into some of the Mid-east Rules of Engagement problems?)

I just don't know the answers to those. I suppose (without thinking about it very much) that I'd like to see the researchers come up with something between a bullet and a tazer for stopping effectiveness. One of my problems with the tazer is that it's limited on distance.

With respect (as always),
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

Well its great to see you again anyways... this place needs a calm voice of reason lately...

ahem...

Will it stop a guy if he's running full tilt at you, or is on drugs?

I suppose that depends on the drug... you could shoot a guy that's on meth in the head and he might still come at you...

theres a story about a guy that ran off of a six story building on that stuff... landed on his feet and literally broke almost every bone in his body... then got up and ran half a block before droping dead... they said he was dead when he hit the ground but his body didn't know it...

Any normal person would stop in his tracks at the sound of a gun shot, especially if it was pointed in your direction...

Will the bullet fragment or ricochet?

Even if it does, it likely wouldn't be fatal... a bullet will shatter if it hits something solid as far as I know... but I don't know squat about guns... only fired one in my life... but logically at 900+ mph... its not just gonna bounce...

Will it cause hesitation while the officer decides whether to shoot the ground or the target? (Might we get into some of the Mid-east Rules of Engagement problems?)

We are talking about a guy with a shovel here...

I just don't know the answers to those. I suppose (without thinking about it very much) that I'd like to see the researchers come up with something between a bullet and a tazer for stopping effectiveness. One of my problems with the tazer is that it's limited on distance.

Aren't cops trained on how to shoot a fire arm, even under pressure?

shoot someone in the leg, he'll drop under most circumstances...

especially if hes holding something heavy like a shovel

a reply to: Akragon
Dear akragon,

I really like your way of thinking. I confess that I had forgotten that this was based on a shovel-wielder. Didn't I see some 2nd Amendment argument say that more people are killed by clubs than by rifles? Probably not relevant.

Sadly, it's after 1 a.m. here and I have to call it quits until tomorrow, but you said something that worries me just a little. (Yes, I know this is off-topic.) You want a voice of reason around here?? What's been going on? I thought ATS had gone through it's silly season and the adults were coming back. Is this place still a madhouse? "Say it ain't so, Joe."

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: Akragon
Why are there soo many Fatal police shootings??

Relatively low terms of admission + bad training + hardly any legal review / legal ramifications.

a reply to: Akragon

You know your a good guy around here but your ideas on this topic are way off base. If I may poke a few holes. First a bullet in/through your leg can most definitely be fatal just watch Blackhawk Down...also being as to how an average leg isn't more than 6-10" wide and you have a vital artery there I'd say chances of nicking it or severing it are high. Also if you miss and hit something else your responsible...even if it doesn't hit a person. Could you imagine the lawsuits from the family that had a bullet or 2 fly through their daughters room? Second from your words I can tell you have never shot a gun under duress or even amped on adrenaline. If you had you would know it's not that easy even with training. Just look at most cop shootings...they shoot so many damn rounds and maybe a couple hit...I'd rather the guy run around with the shovel least I'd be more likely to avoid that. I'd liken it to a teenager hunting solo for the first time when a big ol trophy buck walks up and the anxiety and excitement makes you shake. What I don't get is why a taser or mase couldn't have been used. Also since when does a solo cop get dispatched to a violent scene where the perp is armed with anything ie..bat, knife, whatever. Had there been 2 or more they could have easily disarmed and arrested him. To me it seems the police have made it clear they're worth more than us...if they feel danger they kill it even if it's not life threatening...and don't say a guy with a shovel is life threating cause it's not to a trained officer who's job it is to put himself in front of danger. The whole thing including most of this discussion lacks basic logic.

ETA: if you don't believe me ask anyone here who's actually had to point or shoot a gun at a human who didn't have a gun pointed at them...hell even if they did the same holds true but when the gun is pointed at you too it makes the decision process a bit easier.

Simple. Ive said it a 1000 times.

Its not longer "to serve and protect". Its "law enforcement".

EVERYONE is now considered a potential dangerous criminal.

This country is in big, big trouble.

a reply to: charles1952

I dont know about exact statistics per 10,000 arrests, but typing in "increase in police shootings" sure shows a lot of results, with admissions and excuses from precincts...
www.google.com...:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&channel=sb