God is the true DEVIL. Lucifer, not so much...

originally posted by: Jimjolnir
a reply to: Cuervo

I find this rather interesting! Don't think I've heard it quite like that before. Do you have some links to anything that covers this?

Not links, really. The best thing to do is pretend you know nothing about Christianity and then start reading Genesis. Pretend you don't even know there is a religion associated with it and then try to determine who the gods are, how many there are, where people came from before Adam and Eve, and who the good guys are.

It's a challenging project but you'll be happy you tried it. Also, if there are certain things you are unsure of, look at several editions of the bible as some have translations that were chosen to fit certain dogma so it's good to see it from a few perspectives.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1But Jesus is indeed lucifer as in the creation story that he gave adam and eve the real insight that Jehovah say you will die if you eat from the tree please eat and see then they ate and nothing happened instead Yawh lost his site and could not find the hiding couple he had to threaten them with rage and earthquake for them to reveal were they were adam were are you ask a God comeon gods are suppose to have foreknowledge,Yawh is and has always been and archon not a God as he boast to be hence all the atrocities hea has commited against human race muder,genosite,holocaust,rape,lies,racial discrimination,slavery and so forth, remember he is a product of abortion from Eve... so yeah Jesus and the world were not praying to the same God.. if you want to know Ask Judas he knew that Jesus was from the immortal aeons of barbelo hence he betrayed/revealed his true identity not sell him out as we were let to believe by the bible. if u can remember Jesus always referred to his father as one true god and not by name..

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: dieseldyk

God tests everyone, at all times. If you take the book of Job, as an a example, you have to ask the question, was God testing Job? or was God testing Satan?

Job is not actual history but is a parable about Israel, using the shortened version of Jacob, who was the original "Israel", to describe the spiritual goings-on behind the scenes of the destruction of Israel and Judea by the Assyrians and the Babylonians.

Mark 4:11-12

As (11) Jesus said, “Only you can know the secret truth about God’s kingdom. But to those other people I tell everything by using stories. (12) I do this so that

‘They will look and look but never really see;
they will listen and listen but never understand.
If they saw and understood,
they might change and be forgiven.’”

The Bible has many layers, think of it like a maze and reading the Bible reveals a reflection of your soul. It reflects yourself and your thoughts back to you. Its why people who are pessimistic and conflicted inside will only see contradictions. People who only look to others for answers, and do not work towards understanding are easily lead astray. Its up to you to understand and to change, its your choice.

Are there parables in the Bible? yes. Is Job a Parable? sure, why not. Parable or not, It doesn't change my perception and my understanding. In Job, God was not testing Job, God was testing Satan, and he failed.

I know the Old Testament is pathetic, you think God would of let whoever was writing the Bible know that the Earth was round first.

I wonder if God would let the Pope (not present) into heaven for starting wars that led to millions dying? This is the filth people cling onto, nothing more than mideval mind control.

a reply to: Seede

What most people do not understand is that the God of the OT made a deal with the barbaric Hebrews which we see as a covenant. Now that deal is not the same deal that the same God made in the NT.

Which god of the various contributors of the Old Testament made this new deal?
You just got through saying that Christianity is "a dumping ground for all sorts of ideas."
Do you think that the Jews or Israelites or Hebrews or whoever were somehow immune to the same problem that you feel Christians are subject to?

In His perfect will He would love to see all people agree totally but then He knows that it will never be done on this earth.

Because it can't. It is not because God wills to permit it.
How would God not permit it (if He so willed), short of just killing everyone?

. . . you have given me an awful lot to reconsider at times.

I don't expect people to necessarily agree, as you mentioned, but to look at alternatives.

You accuse me of being a Luciferian rather that a Christian because I said knowledge came from evil?

Right, I did say that, and it doesn't make me happy saying thing things like that, and I wish that I was wrong.

Why would God create Evil knowing that His very first celestial creation would embrace this disobedience?

Where do you get that? I would suggest forgetting all that mythology because it isn't exactly helpful.
Things are just bad, that's the nature of things, and there isn't really anything to be done about it in the short term.
In the beginning was the abyss, which was chaos. It was subdued to a point but never completely vanquished, simply because of unforeseen negative repercussions, such as things we don't know of that feeds off of chaos, that are important to sustaining the universe in general.

Isaiah_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

That just means that Judea wasn't destroyed by the Babylonians because Marduk was stronger than YHWH.
I just got the book in the mail today that I ordered, Peoples of an Almighty God: Competing Religions in the Ancient World (Anchor Bible Reference Library) by Jonathan Goldstein, that dwells on this very thing for 500 pages.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They were doomed to die on that day, when they got sent out into the harsh reality of the world outside the garden.
How I reconcile it is by assuming that The Lord did not put the evil tree in the garden but grew up on its own, as an outpost of the harsh world, inside the plush world of the confines of the garden.
The first parents were unknowing lured outside by an attraction which would have been better ignored.

originally posted by: Evanzsayz
I know the Old Testament is pathetic, you think God would of let whoever was writing the Bible know that the Earth was round first.

I wonder if God would let the Pope (not present) into heaven for starting wars that led to millions dying? This is the filth people cling onto, nothing more than mideval mind control.

What the Popes proclaim to represent and what they actually represent are two different things. The same could be said for terrorists, Zionists, Westborough Baptist Church and many other factions of all the religions.

If they do not uphold the teachings of their religions though they are nothing more than evil liars and this is what people need to understand. Killing one person is against religion so what makes you think killing millions of people is a religious practice?

a reply to: dieseldyk

Is Job a Parable? sure, why not.

To me it is obvious, but that is just me, and I did not arrive at that until after studying the book and thinking about it a lot.
My point is that it should not be looked at as a history of an actual man named Job, but as allegorical of this dilemma that the Jews found themselves in as captives to Babylon.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1 yes remmeber Jesus calls human his brother not any less than him for man is created in a true reflection the god Father hence Yawh s intention of creating man was to duplicate what here saw as God Father s face in the water when he was rebuked for saying i am God and there is no one besides me..

a reply to: jmdewey60

Text Which god of the various contributors of the Old Testament made this new deal? You just got through saying that Christianity is "a dumping ground for all sorts of ideas." Do you think that the Jews or Israelites or Hebrews or whoever were somehow immune to the same problem that you feel Christians are subject to?

The "Deal" that I referenced was that of the Hebrews with the God of Abraham. The dumping ground that I referenced was that of various people who have all of these weird ideas that are dreamed in their imaginations. That reference had nothing to do with the authors of most bibles. The Hebrews of certain eras of the OT most certainly had differences in tribal beliefs and practices but that was not the point in this discussion. All peoples are faced with certain divisions in their cultures. That is understandable when we have freedom to choose and are not robotic.

Text Because it can't. It is not because God wills to permit it. How would God not permit it (if He so willed), short of just killing everyone?

Back up a bit. When God showed His permissive will was when He gave His creation knowledge to do good and evil. Prior to that there was no need for God to have a permissive will. All was good before sin entered the garden and the need for forgiveness did not exist for this creation at that particular time. As far as choice is concerned, God was not compelled to do anything at anytime. He chooses to do at His pleasure because He is the Creator. As a created creature you and I are at His mercy regardless of how distasteful that is to you.

I did say - "Why would God create Evil knowing that His very first celestial creation would embrace this disobedience?"
and you gave no comprehensible answer. The answer is that God in His foreknowledge did know that the celestial host would sin even before He created sin. They also had to have choice and without the choice then no choice could have been made. This was then introduced to the terrestrial creation through the host that was cast to the earth and into the garden.

TextWhere do you get that? I would suggest forgetting all that mythology because it isn't exactly helpful. Things are just bad, that's the nature of things, and there isn't really anything to be done about it in the short term. In the beginning was the abyss, which was chaos. It was subdued to a point but never completely vanquished, simply because of unforeseen negative repercussions, such as things we don't know of that feeds off of chaos, that are important to sustaining the universe in general.

By your answer it is clear to me that you have no understanding in the matter of the true Christianity.

I gave you the scripture - "Isaiah_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" and you gave nothing in return except to tell me - "That just means that Judea wasn't destroyed by the Babylonians because Marduk was stronger than YHWH."

TextI just got the book in the mail today that I ordered, Peoples of an Almighty God: Competing Religions in the Ancient World (Anchor Bible Reference Library) by Jonathan Goldstein, that dwells on this very thing for 500 pages.

I am very much aware of Jonathan A. Goldstein's work and I also am aware of the fact that he is originally from the Jewish Theological Seminary. God rest his soul. I know that much of his work is highly controversial in the scholarly field of history and I doubt that his interest was ever with Christianity whatsoever.

Genesis 2:17 - "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" and your reply was --

TextThey were doomed to die on that day, when they got sent out into the harsh reality of the world outside the garden. How I reconcile it is by assuming that The Lord did not put the evil tree in the garden but grew up on its own, as an outpost of the harsh world, inside the plush world of the confines of the garden. The first parents were unknowing lured outside by an attraction which would have been better ignored.

You tell me that God did not put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden but it grew there all by itself. I think you had best reconsider your education of the scriptures.

Gen_2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

That being said I think I understand more of your interest in history than that of Christianity. This conversation leads me to conclude that you and I are not even close to being in the same book much less on the same page. Thanks for the conversation.

a reply to: Seede

As a created creature you and I are at His mercy regardless of how distasteful that is to you.

This wording here makes the statement contradict what you just said before that.
Maybe you meant something else, like we are dependent on God for certain things.
As for "distasteful", I have a slight problem with this sort of reasoning here:

As far as choice is concerned, God was not compelled to do anything at anytime. He chooses to do at His pleasure because He is the Creator.

That just comes out of nowhere, as far as I can tell.
"God" is the source of everything good, by definition, holy.
There is no evil god, if such a person was, he would cease to be god.
He isn't like Caligula on the Isle of Capri doing as He chooses.

I did say - "Why would God create Evil knowing that His very first celestial creation would embrace this disobedience?"
and you gave no comprehensible answer.

Can you understand what the word "myth" means?
If you could quote the Bible saying that, then I might have a reply.
You would have to go to Jude or Second Peter which are apparently influenced by the Book of Enoch.
They are really just using those things metaphorically to compare how bad things can happen to us if we are bad because no one is invulnerable to punishment.

The answer is that God in His foreknowledge did know that the celestial host would sin even before He created sin.

This is the sort of thing that makes me think you are preaching a Luciferian gospel. What makes you think God "created sin"?
OK, then you are taking an extra-biblical book and using it to override the Bible's teachings.

This was then introduced to the terrestrial creation through the host that was cast to the earth and into the garden.

I find this stuff very uninteresting so don't expect me to give an answer.
When you decide to discuss the Bible, let me know.

By your answer it is clear to me that you have no understanding in the matter of the true Christianity.

You might want to study the actual Bible some time, then you would know all of this, what it actually says about the things that you see coming back in Revelation.
I have to guess that what you are calling "true Christianity" is devoid of actual serious biblical scholarship and rather occupies itself memorizing cult slogans.

I gave you the scripture - "Isaiah_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" and you gave nothing in return except to tell me - "That just means that Judea wasn't destroyed by the Babylonians because Marduk was stronger than YHWH."

Well, what in the world do you think it is talking about?
Are you happy just taking it completely out of context and creating some elaborate interpretation from whatever you can dream up to fit a couple of words that are a translation from an obscure dead language?

I am very much aware of Jonathan A. Goldstein's work and I also am aware of the fact that he is originally from the Jewish Theological Seminary. God rest his soul. I know that much of his work is highly controversial in the scholarly field of history and I doubt that his interest was ever with Christianity whatsoever.

I wasn't "very aware" of his work until I ran across this book, which just happens to be about something that I am interested in, and it matters not that he is Jewish since the book is not about Christian topics, though it does affect the thinking of some Christians as evidenced by your post and how you misinterpret something that should be obvious to anyone reading the entire book of Isaiah.

You tell me that God did not put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden but it grew there all by itself. I think you had best reconsider your education of the scriptures.

You should look at several translations of Genesis 2:9 and notice that there are two ways to translate it, where one way it is clear that it does not specifically say that The Lord put it there. It just says that in the midst of all these trees, there were the two trees, one of life and the other the deadly one, without saying how they got there.
So it is two sentences.
One says The Lord planted all the trees that were good to eat.
The second sentence says that among those trees mentioned in the first sentence, there was those other two individual trees.
Obviously the evil tree can not be grouped in with the trees "good to eat and good to look at".
I think it would be pushing it a bit to say that they were actually two groups being pointed out, one good to eat, and the other good to look at, where the evil tree could be in the good looking group.
I don't think that the Hebrew phrasing would support that distinction.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: theyknowwhoyouare

Maybe you should read the verses before the one you quoted. Like these ones

"I will punish the world for it's evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible - Isaiah 13;11

God is willing to punish evil with evil.

You're counterargument is that the reason God does evil is because he fights evil with evil? So it's okay to be evil as long as you're fighting evil, huh? And God is the only one who gets to decide what is evil? Sounds like a very convenient loop-hole to me.

It still doesn't explain how God's actions are in direct violation of what Jesus teaches about loving our neighbor and enemies. About mercy. About compassion.

originally posted by: Aleister
The biggest serial killing by god was the flood that killed every human and animal and plant on earth, except for a few members of one family. Satan, if there is such a cat, must have been shaking his head at the hideousness of this deed. Drowning everything that lived on land, I'm surprised he didn't have it in for the ocean life as well.

Very good.This is one of many reasons the flood as described in the bible could not have happened.Because ocean life would have all been dead.You see,if it rained as much as they said it did in that book then all salt water would have been watered down far too much for salt water fish to survive.We would not have the sea life we do today if the flood happened like as described in the bible.

a reply to: theyknowwhoyouare

Star and Flag buddy! This is very much what I have suspected all along...why would a good being kill? Instigate fights and conflicts? Intentionally cause plagues...and ofcourse there is that great flood thing..

Anyways great post!

--GS

a reply to: Akragon

I've actually read the book...a lot. I study the Bible pretty much everyday, and you couldn't be more wrong.

originally posted by: OptimusSubprime
a reply to: Akragon

I've actually read the book...a lot. I study the Bible pretty much everyday, and you couldn't be more wrong.

I've actually read the book several times... and I've been studying it, and other early Christian material for over 10 years now...

And you can believe whatever makes you happy...

The bottom line is, look at all the suffering and pain in the world. Any good father would do whatever he could to lessen the pain of his children.

Because god has infinite power, he should be able to eradicate suffering, yet it continues. Even in his name, children are starved, beaten, raped, and killed, sometimes in the name of god. If he's a father, he's a terrible one. If he's all powerful and won't help people, then he's at best, abusive, and at worst, evil. If he sees all this suffering and then can't help, then why even worship him?

In the end, god isn't anything other than a fictional character made up by man to either scare or control people. The bible itself, both old and new testament are filled with information that conflicts with itself. Both god and the devil are the boogeymen of a bygone era. We don't need religion to make us moral. In fact, religion makes us immoral. It makes us do things against our nature. The bible makes us hate people based on their race, creed, or religion. It tells us to not kill, but then says that it's okay in certain circumstances. It says that slavery is bad and that it's also okay. It says that god is infinitely forgiving, and then he's a vengeful god.

Anyone who can justify god's bad behavior in the bible wins an award for gullibility. There's no reason to worship an idea that is in itself conflicted and imperfect.

a reply to: grahag

It says that god is infinitely forgiving, and then he's a vengeful god.

"Vengeful" can mean "bringing about justice".
If you were being wronged, you might enjoy that king of vengeance.

Because god has infinite power, he should be able to eradicate suffering . . .

Obviously He doesn't, and even the Bible doesn't make that claim.
God Himself lives eternally, it does say that.
I think God does what He can within certain restraints.
I realize that a lot of religious people would have a problem with that but it is in there if you want to see it.
The Biblical writers were not so foolish as to try to describe an all-powerful god.
Ancient philosophy predates the Bible, so they were aware of the kind of dilemma it would create.

The best time ever will be , indeed , when no one talks about this stupid book or any other diversion from the truth.

Until people stop thinking about these things in the manners they are, they can never be freed enough to see that absolutely NOTHING in any of the religious texts has anything to do with "Heaven" or any other higher realms.

The designs of the ignorant amaze the masses again, and again.

Even the most enlightened people I meet with seem to be incapable of stepping outside of all these boxes that frame ALL of their belief systems.

How about a NEW belief system a REALITY system, one that can be actually proven and DEALT WITH.

Time to DEAL WITH the situation down to beyond a molecular level.

originally posted by: ctophil
a reply to: theyknowwhoyouare

As discussed by my some of my brothers and sisters here, the god in the Old Testament is not what whom you think he happened to be. I am about to tell you a few things that may shock you, or you may already know about it. Firstly, you may already know that Yahweh was not the Creator. He was a god who was assigned to look after Earth at that time period. Though he was powerful since he was a god, he had many human traits due to a being who existed in the 3rd dimension just like us. He was jealous, chose the people liked or disliked, strict to the core, and even hated most human beings and wanted some of us dead. However, as awful as that seems to be, Yahweh listened to people who were loyal and followed his laws. There was love in his heart, but in his own way.

So with this understanding, the True Creator is not at all like the god in the Old Testament. The Creator of this Universe, in fact, live in an entirely different reality that is ONENESS compared to this world with Polarity (always splitting the ideas of Good, Evil, or just Neutral). Have you not heard of the unconditional Love of our Creator? This unconditional Love is very different from the Love you are used to where it requires others to do something for you. The mentality of scratching my back and I'll scratch yours is the essence of Duality Consciousness we live here.

In Heaven where there is no Duality (the 5th Dimension and where the first world of true God Consciousness), you will finally realize that Good and Evil don't exist, but are merged together into ONENESS. Yes, there is still Duality in the 4th Dimension, but much less. In times past, Archangel Michael represented the Light while Archangel Lucifer represented the Darkness. But neither are better than the other in God's Eye. Because they are here to help us understand the two sides of the coin, but yet it is just a Single coin.

I can dare say I call you out and all of the Archangels themselves to prove the ONENESS.

You mistake ONENESS with the fact that your Creator DISSOLVED itself entirely into its Creation!

The only way ultimately after many attempts was to COMPLETELY disconnect itself from choice and TOTALLY be lost into that which it wished to be real, it just was NOT going to be real enough until this Ultimate FALL took place.

So much other things have gone on since then, it renders all normal religious thoughts to be the designs of much advanced scum, scum that is about to be SHONE A LIGHT ON.

The OP of this thread is leading you all in deception circles. Haha. The "god" of the OT is a group of gods called elohim. They are fallen angels. They run Hollywood, politics, religion. White Jesus is a fallen angel. A flesh and blood representation of Saturn. Christ is real, Jesus is not Christ. Follow? All religions are fallen angel/astrology worshippers. I'm at school right now but when I get to a desktop will share all I know with you guys. God bless.
-Adam