The Cymry or the true history of Britain.

originally posted by: DreamerOracle

Just to point out a fact, I studied history in secondary (in England) and Welsh , Scottish history was a very large chunk of it.

Then you would know they`re called Scots and not Scotts right?

And you would know that Scots derives from the Scoti tribe of Eire wouldn`t you!

en.wikipedia.org...

just saying

originally posted by: fenian8
a reply to: urbanghost

Hello fellow Celt lol. I thought it was Cymru???

I haven`t been able to go last couple of years, but did have the privaledge to go every year to the Celtic Camp in North Wales. Was at the first one if I remember right.

.
Cymru Rydd!!!!

Cymry is an old way of spelling it.
Never been myself but have heard about it

Fe Godwn Ni Eto

a reply to: DreamerOracle

Right I had a feeling the national identity of Wales wasn't established in ancient times. I presume that the history of Wales was mostly tribal back then with a complicated network of alliances, rivalries and enemies.

Now Ireland on the other hand, that little island has a hard core history and plausibly a national identity established in ancient times by several waves of immigrants and ancient wars that are rarely discussed and hardly documented. Every culture that migrated to Ireland seemed to have brought with them a war that consumed the entire island until a new power structure was developed with a new national identity. In the distant past (1000AD) it was already the product of 4 large tribes post-war/peace-resolution at least. It doesn't seem like Rome had much of an influence on Ireland either, unlike major Britannia which is interesting too.

I wish I could find more info about UK history, I'm ignorant of Wales but their history doesn't seem to be documented as well as Ireland's history.

a reply to: On7a7higher7plane
There are many manuscripts detailing wales history, myths and legends.
These are the major ones, Brut y Brenhinoedd, The book of Llandaff, The Laws of Hywel Dda, the Black Book of Camarthen, Hendregadredd Manuscript, Book of Taliesin, Chronicle of the Princes, White Book of Rhydderch, Black Book of Basingwerk, Gutun Owain manuscript. All the original manuscripts are online on the National Library of Waleswebsite.

I am glad this topic came up because a short while ago I heard the insult to the English - "You have no culture" Apart from my polite response to that - Are you sure? I have always had my temper rise so fast at this that in the wrong setting my fist would go before my mouth. Its strange because I can't explain to myself what infuriates or insults me so as an Englishman.

The Welsh supplied us with a number of Kings for the English throne and it is the only part of the UK that the English have not had major wars with. Welsh culture seems to have thrived far stronger and truer to itself than anywhere else in the UK, perhaps because its language has been kept alive despite a terrible attack on it through the education system when the language was not allowed to be taught or spoken. The monarchy have always chosen to 'suck' up to the Welsh by naming the eldest son Prince of Wales, as opposed to prince of Scotland, Northern Ireland or England.

I don't find it so strange that on an island that has been inhabited for thousands and thousands of years our history has literally been obliterated. We had the ability to build glorious monuments, alligned to the planets which gives us a heritage equal to any other culture of those times; bearinbg in mind that a huge part of our country went under the sea and I was taught that the last glacier came down to the Watford Gap. We know that between the Isles of Scilly and Cornwall we have ruins of farm land and fields marked out and Dogger was a huge landmass now also completely lost. So in comparison to today we are much smaller land wise and so perhaps much of our ancient history and artifacts are lost.

I suspect our history which even scholars admit is in need of a complete rewrite simply has not been rewritten yet simple because it doesn't suit either the Monarchy or Church, because our lives prior to both Rome's uninvited intrusion onto our Isles and Christianity, were very much freer.

I suspect our history was intrinsically linked with the Druids and I think that the Church, Emperor and Crown were determined to remove all trace of them and their power and, especially their influence over the ordinary people. It should also be remembered that history is - written by the winners - who were not the Druids and the early writings of both the church and our history were very limited.

I heard a talk where it was said that the Druids were, among other things, healers, educators and arbiters, they were the men that carried measuring rods and allocated land to people. They held education and land was free to the people. These two things alone were not conducive to would-be tyrants. Their ideas of 'freely educated people' were a threat. However perhaps a hint of the extent of their power and history shows up in the bible where 'angels/men carrying measuring rods' are mentioned. (One should question why an angel would want a measuring rod being a supernatural being)?

The Crown here in order to finance its power uses land in order to tax the people. Today it alone owns the land and we only a freehold or tenancy interest and the Church as soon as it got established grabbed vast swathes of land. It as partly linked to our government pays no taxes. We have gone from being free to being subjects of the crown and governed by laws demanding we worship christianity and pay for it direct to the church and pay our taxes. We were told it took 25 years to train a druid and today considerably less than that to train a priest, - monarchs are just born.

Despite the fact that religion has lost the battle for minds with less than 1/4 of the population attending regular worship etc, the church still has considerable power and influence, so I suspect that both monarchy which now hears the knoll of a call for a republic and the church, which are intertwined, have benefitted from creating a new history that evolved from 0 AD designed to camouflage or totally destroy our old ways.

Were people to want to return to the old ways and ditch religion, the monarchy and its elitist sycophants, we would probably want to return to something like the freedoms the speaker thought the ancient Druids cherished.

a reply to: Shiloh7
A lot of Welsh manuscripts and historical documents were destroyed many years ago when they dissolved the monasteries. Most of what is left came from one monastery in South Wales.

The earliest finds in Wales date from 230,000 years ago in a cave in the River Elwy valley. This site is the most north-westerly in Eurasia where remains of early hominids have been found, and is considered to be of international importance.
The Red Lady of Paviland is the first human fossil to have been found anywhere in the world, it is still the oldest ceremonial burial of a modern human discovered anywhere in Western Europe, 33,000 years old.

I was just about to head off to bed when I stumbled across this thread. I have read all 4 pages (as it stands at the time of this post) and quite frankly there is a lot of hogwash and nonsense been talked about.

It is very late and this thread has made me quite cantankerous, and for that I apologise as I will not be responding in my usual quiet way.

I am just going to pick up on a couple of points at this stage, but before I do I probably need to explain. I am Welsh, speak the language fluently (totally bi-lingual) I come from a welsh family that my daughter has traced back to late 1600 on Anglesey.

First, yes north and south Wales Welsh is very different....but you are very wrong about S Wales welsh being the oldest OP...very wrong. Second.....who were these South Wales Princes/ kings please? Because in the time frame you are talking about (medieval Britain) the last Welsh Prince was Llewellyn....Prince of Gwynedd and Anglesey, ie North Wales. The North was the last to fall to the English not the South.

Just to pick up on another poster who had the temerity to say the welsh word for a computer was "made up".....Cyfrifiadur....basically broken down to counting, and calculating, just like its english equivalent computer. Just because something was of english speaking invention does not mean other languages don't have the equivalent...did the word computer exist in the english language before the machine did? Or did you just blindly think cyfrifiadur was a "made up" word? I might as well throw hiraeth into the mix and say that is a Welsh word that cannot be translated into any language let alone english.

You might want to question why Anglesey was (and is) the last stronghold of the Druids? Have a look at the landscape of North Wales at the time of the Roman incursion, look at it's geology and the meteorology of the UK during the time of the Roman occupation.

Anyway, I am sorry if I have come over all abrupt, I sincerely apologise. I shall come back and take a second read of this thread later today.

Noswaith da
Enfys
Sian

hi OP
hope you find this interesting
www.abovetopsecret.com...
some evidence re the tru history of the celtic cross

a reply to: Shiloh7

Excellent post, thank you. Way better than my antagonistic one.

Rainbows
Jane

a reply to: angelchemuel
South wales princes during the Medieval period were
Erb - 420s, Nynniaw - 450s, Tiethfallt - 480s, Glywys - 490s, Ynyr - 510s, Gwynllyw - 520s, Iddon - 540s, Cadoc - 550s, Tewdrig - 550s, Meurig - 580-615, Cynfeddw - 610s, Arthwyr ap Meurig - 615-630, Morgan - 630-655, Ithael - 715-745, Ffernfael ap Ithael - 745-775, Rhys ab Ithael - 745, Arthwyr ap Ffernfael - 775, Arthfael ap Rhys - 800, Ithael ab Arthwyr - 848, Meurig ab Arthfael - 830s, Rhys ab Arthfael - 830s, Brochwael ab Meurig - 880s, Ffernwael ab Meurig - 880s, Hywel ap Rhys - 840-885, Owain ap Hywel - 885-930, Arthfael ap Hywel - 920s, Cadell ap Arthfael - 930s, Gruffydd ap Owain - 930-934, Cadwgan ap Owain - 930-950, Morgan Hen ab Owain - 930-974, Nowy ap Gwriad - 950s, Owain ap Morgan - 974, Arthfael ap Nowy - 970s, Rhys ab Owain - 990s, Iestyn ab Owain - 990s, Hywel ab Owain - 990-1043, Rhodri ap Elisedd - 983-1015, Gruffydd ap Elisedd - 983-1015, Edwyn ap Gwriad - 1015-1045, Rhydderch ab Iestyn - 1015-1033, Gruffydd ap Rhydderch - 1033-1055, Meurig ap Hywel - 1045-1055, Cadwgan ap Meurig - 1063-1074, Caradog ap Gruffydd - 1075-1081, Iestyn ap Gwrgan - 1081-1091.
These are the some of the major ones. There are many more minor princes who I am not going to list as it would take me all night. Surely you now about these princes, being Welsh?
The last part of Wales that was deprived of its land was Afan in Glamorgan governed by the descendants of Iestyn ap Gwrgan until 1282.
Hiraeth means grief or sadness after the lost or departed. Amcawdd is Welsh word with no English definition.

a reply to: angelchemuel

It's a great thread though, one of the best I have come across on ATS. It's amazing what a few honest contributors focusing on what's real can do for a thread.

Usually after the first page the threads degrade but this one is keeping up, that says something about you UK people.

American here, I wish I had more info to contribute but I prefer discovering to teaching anyway.

a reply to: urbanghost

Thanks for the list...I appreciate that. As to the last stand, this is what I was taught in school in North Wales....

Edward I's fearsome Iron ring of colossal fortresses represents Europe's most ambitious and concentrated medieval building project, designed to prevent the recurrence of two massively expensive military campaigns. After Edward's first successful campaign in 1277, he was able to pin down his adversary Llywelyn ap Gruffydd ("The Last") in Snowdonia and on Anglesey. This gave him room and time enough to build the now largely ruined castles at Flint, Rhuddlan, Builth Wells and Aberystwyth, as well as to commandeer and upgrade Welsh castles, Edward's first attempt at subjugation.

Llywelyn's second uprising, in 1282, was also ultimately unsuccessful, and Edward, determined not to have to fight a third time for the same land, set about extending his ring of fortifications in an immensely costly display of English might. Together with the Treaty of Rhuddlan in 1284, this saw the Welsh resistance effectively crushed.

www.castlewales.com...

I would debate that your submission of Afan in Glamorgan might have been geographically correct, but geopolitically was of little consequence, more of a 'tidy up' if you will.

Now, as to hiraeth....you forgot longing, homesickness, like I said, not a word that can be translated into just one word in English.

Anyway, I don't want to argue, and I am well aware my tone sounds argumentative (well it does to me) and I apologise for that. I shall get off to bed and come back refreshed tomorrow.

And yes...this is an excellent thread, for that I thank you


Rainbow
Jane

originally posted by: On7a7higher7plane
a reply to: DreamerOracle

Right I had a feeling the national identity of Wales wasn't established in ancient times. I presume that the history of Wales was mostly tribal back then with a complicated network of alliances, rivalries and enemies.

Now Ireland on the other hand, that little island has a hard core history and plausibly a national identity established in ancient times by several waves of immigrants and ancient wars that are rarely discussed and hardly documented. Every culture that migrated to Ireland seemed to have brought with them a war that consumed the entire island until a new power structure was developed with a new national identity. In the distant past (1000AD) it was already the product of 4 large tribes post-war/peace-resolution at least. It doesn't seem like Rome had much of an influence on Ireland either, unlike major Britannia which is interesting too.

I wish I could find more info about UK history, I'm ignorant of Wales but their history doesn't seem to be documented as well as Ireland's history.

The three main tribes that competed for control over Ireland in the early AD period after Romans pulled their legions out of Britain were these:

Connacht in the northwest (also the poorest and most backwater of the three)
Mumhan in the south (Munster)
And Ui Neill in the Northeast


But you're right, information is very sketchy.



As for the Romans, they made a few incursions into Ireland that ended badly.... for them. They stopped trying after they realized they couldn't beat the Hibernian "savages".

a reply to: angelchemuel
Yes the history of Llewellyn is well known to me, I have studied it along with most of the Welsh princes, not quite got through them all, there are a few!!
I always understood that he was the last sovereign prince, there were still many more princes at the same time.
Too many!!

Castell-y-Bere was to remain a Welsh stronghold for only about six decades. In April 1283, the castle was finally surrendered to the English, the last castle to fall during Edward I's momentous incursion into Wales to crush the rebellions of the Welsh. After falling to the English, Castell-y-Bere was repaired to some degree and a settlement was established at the foot of the craggy hillock. One last attempt was made to retake Y Bere by Madog ap Llywelyn, who considered himself Prince of Wales, in 1294. But this revolt was squashed shortly thereafter, and Castell-y-Bere was rendered useless from that point onward. The new English settlement was abandoned and the castle was never used again.

www.castlewales.com...

a reply to: angelchemuel
I'll have a read up about that.
Most people don't realise that the Welsh also built stone castles, not just the Normans. There is one in a field behind my house called Castell Bolan.

a reply to: urbanghost

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Something about our ancient history scares people from telling what truly went down in that time. Have you ever watched that History channel series called Viking's? On an episode 3 or 5 weeks ago King Orick (can't get the name right) took the priest who was liberated from the Vikings to see ancient parchments he and his people have hidden by the bundles and he asked him a question about how the people believed that Giants lived in these lands and built all this structures and roads and frescos. The priest came back and said since you studied in the same schools I did at Constanstinople (Byzantine empire capital in Turkey) that you know that all of this was done by the Romans and the Romans once took over a large area of the island. The King knew but went on to say that the people must still be let to believe the giants or anything else while he and him knew the truth and he the priest read the scrolls and deciphered them for the King.

I bring this up because for some it might be they just want to have the power of knowledge of things over their people. And to others it could be that it makes their accomplishments seem trivial than what they did thousands of years ago. One day our history of your area of the country (Welsh) and other parts of the world will get figured out and we will find out what truly happened on this planet tens of thousands of years ago.

a reply to: Gallowglaich

So that makes over 5 tribes composing of Ireland. I recall that there were at least 3 major waves of immigration (followed by Ireland erupting in war) in time BC.

Ireland has a cool history.

Hey guys, first time poster, long time reader!

Firstly I'd like to show my support for a fellow Celtic nation.

For too long the UK government has tried to suppress the Celtic nations.
After almost 1000 years of rebelling and protesting against the English occupation of Cornwall, we finally have some acknowledgement that we are a distinct race of people, just like our Welsh, Scottish and Irish brothers.

www.telegraph.co.uk... 3741/Cornish-to-be-given-national-minority-status.html

Please anyone not familiar with Cornwall (I'm sure there will be many across the pond) look us up. Just like the other Celtic nations we have many myths, legend, folklore, proud traditions and language. (We exported mining to all four corners of the globe ).