NJ Public School sued over "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance

a reply to: BobAthome

My apologies, I misread your intent. don't have a link to my bookshelf so I hope this counts as proof...

originally posted by: BobAthome
u made a claim,, as factal,,""Jefferson went and wrote his own version if the bible" ,, where is the link/evidence,, its your claim.

It is a well known fact that Thomas Jefferson composed his own version of the Bible omitting the supernatural aspects of the King James version as he did not believe in the Divinity of Christ.

Jefferson Bible

originally posted by: BobAthome
a reply to: 200Plus

I quote, from your Wiki,,

"Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen"
Bob, context is everything. in jeffersons version jesus is not a demigod performing magic for the masses as he proselytizes to them. He thought that the message was more important and real whereas the heavenly father hullabaloo was icing for the rubes.

Jesus the Son of God.
The Creator,,,

now your quote


"Yeah,
Those founding fathers had sooooo much respect for the big C version of the creator that Jefferson went and wrote his own version if the bible and took all the supernatural godlike magic out of it. What did the church call people like that? Oh yeah, heretics. Not exactly a term synonymous with respect for the Christian Lord of the Rings."

so your point was that Jefferson was a Heritic????????????


and same answer too you as well.
that jefferson was not Christian???

Bob context is everything. you're imparting your views of jesus onto Jefferson whereas when Jefferson created his version he removed all mention of jesus being a demigod performing magic for the masses as he proselytized to them. He felt that the message of jesus was a good and solid way to live but that religious entities had bastardized it for their own gain and profit. the magic was just fluff and hullabaloo that was B.S. and unnecessary to the philosophy. So yes, Im saying that Jefferson was not a Christian at least not in the sense you think of Christianity.

a reply to: peter vlar

then how does he justify,, "Abba,,Abba,, why has though, forsaken me"

or

"If it be thy will, take this cup from me"

"heavenly father hullabaloo was icing for the rubes. " really,, lol

you do not see the relationship, between Jesus and His Father???

wow. ok.

Some do.

a reply to: peter vlar

"Jefferson was not a Christian" how can u say that, when Jefferson spent so much of his time.,,

spreading the Gosple of the Kingdom of God.???

maybe u do not see what that entail's either.

curious.

ohh and it was a very gutsy move on Jeffferson's part,, because i know,, as well as you that ,he would also have known,,that,,, and i quote
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things,
God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life,
and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
I just finished reading the thread and this isn't directed at you particularly so please don't think I am attacking.

No worries.

As far as the lawsuit goes I do agree it seems frivolous at first glance, but this can sometimes be how bigger changes are made or precedents are set. If a court finds that reciting the pledge with the term "under god" is unconstitutional as it breaks the establishment clause then not only will that school be affected others will as well.

I think it is fundamentally flawed as it targets one school district in the state who's districts are bound by the state constitution to make provisions for the act of a daily Pledge of Allegiance. The schools must furnish a flag, stand and allocate time to conduct the Pledge. It is not the school district that created this but the State of New Jersey.

If they wanted to try and repeal this law (and I do not think that they will based on legal precedent) they should have filed suit against the state and its constitution of violating the establishment clause. The citizens of this town will suffer the financial burden of the suit in the interim, which in my opinion, is unjust and frankly mean-spirited.

Of course there is the option where people can opt out of saying the pledge however that can cause division. Doing so essentially singles people out as either unpatriotic or godless maybe even both.

Then they would have a discrimination suit, and a very valid one at that, which I would fully support. I know it is anecdotal but I attended school in New Jersey with two separate persons who refused top do the Pledge every day. They were not treated unfairly. As a matter of fact they were often able to articulate, for those who questioned them, rather clearly why they did not participate.

Ideally the phrase "under god" should be removed and the pledge should be recited as it was originally written and intended by the author Francis Bellamy. It is interesting that when he originally wrote the pledge he contemplated placing the word 'equality' within it however in those times many were against equality for both women and minorities. If changes were to have been made to his work they should have done so keeping in mind what he was actually hopeful for.
If the goals of the secularist group are what I think they are which is to change the pledge ( after some time in courts) perhaps the end result will reflect the authors original intent.

That very well may be their intent but I think they are going about it in a way which affects people who have no ability to alter this statute at the local level.

Whenever the issue of religion and public school comes up I always think about "The Louisiana Public School Cramming Christianity Down Students’ Throats" where a poor Buddhist kids rights were trampled on. As I am sure it is known I am strongly against any type of state sponsored religious power. Give them an inch they will take infinity + 1 miles.

Agreed. We are very much on the same page and which is why I admire Jefferson in his defense of the Baptists of Connecticut with his 'wall of separation' letter he composed to them.

a reply to: BobAthome

I don't see Jesus as a real person so what others feel in regards to him is no skin off my back. I have no qualms whatsoever regarding what other believe. As I've said a couple times in this thread, religion is a personal matter and of a personal nature and in my opinion isn't really something to be sullied or denigrated by publicly flaunting it. I'm friends with people of many faiths and people of no faith. What people do with their personal ideologies on their time is of no consequence or concern to me as long as we can respect one another and understand each others limitations or tolerance for those non mutually exclusive philosophies. However I'm not cliff notes, if you want to understand Jefferson's interpretation and intent get a library card and borrow the book. It's a good read.

a reply to: BobAthome

I didn't really think "heretic" was thrown around after the dark ages.

The Church had split so many times based on ideological grounds that heresy was a thing of the past by then.

I doubt many people would argue against the ethical system of Jesus, it would be like arguing against the "five pillars of Islam". A sound idea should be considered regardless of the source.

The way I understood the article was Jefferson wrote it for the American Indians. The teachings of Christianity without the mysticism. I could be way off though.

Jefferson called himself a Christian. He also said "judge me based on my works" (more or less). I rather like the idea of looking at the man's works and letting God decide if his faith was well placed (as judgement should be).

He believed in the teaching of the Christ without a need for miracles. Is that heresy? About the same eating a cheese burger is heresy really.

originally posted by: BobAthome
a reply to: peter vlar

"Jefferson was not a Christian" how can u say that, when Jefferson spent so much of his time.,,

spreading the Gosple of the Kingdom of God.???

maybe u do not see what that entail's either.

curious.

ohh and it was a very gutsy move on Jeffferson's part,, because i know,, as well as you that ,he would also have known,,that,,, and i quote
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things,
God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life,
and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book.

you are quoting words of men, not divinity. there is no wrath to be feared there.


ETA I don't understand how anyone could be considered a Christian when they are hostile enough towards Christianity to take scissors to his bible and reformat it. He was certainly a Deist but no, not a Christian.

originally posted by: BobAthome
"Jefferson was not a Christian" how can u say that, when Jefferson spent so much of his time.,,
spreading the Gosple of the Kingdom of God.???

Since you asked for links (and got them) now you can supply some showing that Jefferson 'spread the Gospel of the Kingdom of God'.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

look up,,,wayyyyy up,, too the top of,,



the thread,, and there u go

or here,,www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: BobAthome
look up,,,wayyyyy up,, too the top of,,

Considering you have never read that version of the Bible how do you know what Jefferson was conveying with it?

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ. -Thomas Jefferson

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists. Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration, as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics.

From Jefferson biographer Manly Hall-

It is important next to realize that the secret doctrine concealed in the Bible must be discovered with the aid of certain keys. Each of the myths, fables and symbolic figures has at least seven complete and distinct interpretations. In other words, to open the door, that is, unveil the secret, the key must be turned seven times in the lock.

While Im on to Founding Fathers who were Deists and not Christians, let's throw Thomas Paine under the bus as well

The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun.

Under god was only added by McCarthites in a misguided attempt to ham-fistedly re-enforce that we "weren't godless commies". quite clearly anyone against it was a godless commie or at least funded by godless commies.

originally posted by: 200Plus
Jefferson called himself a Christian. He also said "judge me based on my works" (more or less). I rather like the idea of looking at the man's works and letting God decide if his faith was well placed (as judgement should be).

Can you provide a quote of his wherein he called himself a Christian?

At times, the Christian right has sought to rewrite history by posthumously converting Thomas Jefferson into a Christian. Throughout his life, however, Jefferson strenuously denied that he held orthodox Christian beliefs or that he desired the mixing of politics and religion in government. Instead, Jefferson's religious philosophy centered on 18th century concepts of natural law.

Source

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

because he cut and paste,,,by candlelight ,,(at night,, in his night dress,)
,rather than use his own words,,and just write any old thing at all.

he did not want too get in trouble,, with the big C u know

God.

or maybe u don't.

originally posted by: BobAthome
because he cut and paste,,,by candlelight ,,(at night,, in his night dress,)
,rather than use his own words,,and just write any old thing at all.

The key word in your sentence is 'cut' as in 'remove' and this would have been in regards the virgin birth, miracles and resurrection. You know, all the things that make someone a Christian spreading the Gospel.

he did not want too get in trouble,, with the big C u know
God.
or maybe u don't.

You hold a séance to figure that stuff out? Jefferson tell you directly? Stop making things up.

originally posted by: 200Plus The way I understood the article was Jefferson wrote it for the American Indians. The teachings of Christianity without the mysticism. I could be way off though.

how exactly was that possible when Jefferson refused to allow it to be published during his lifetime?

I don't understand their reasoning for this. The school does not, nor does any school require that the the words "Under God" be recited, only the rest of the Pledge. So where is their real problem?

They want to take away other people's right to freedom of speech by not allowing the words "under god" to be uttered at all. That is insane. How whiny we have become as a society. They don't want to allow other kids to say it because their daughter won't, so they don't want to exclude her. If the little brat and her whiny parents don't want her to be excluded than say under god, or get a back bone hold her head high and dont. What they are trying to accomplish is an act of intolerance, just the very thing they claim to be fighting for. Screw Off!! Reversed hypocrisy at its finest.


They need to get over it and right quick, i'm tired of the rabid offences these type of people and organizations continously take.



Why would it matter if they are singled out as "godless" isn't that something to be proud of? according to them anyhow.