American Patriotism

I already gave you one good example - ME.

Who's a cute liddle megalomaniac, come on who is the megalomaniac in my life? You are, yes you, you liddle egotist you Hve a cookie

XAOS

Originally posted by xaos
What is your definition of patriotism, if it is not a strong pride in your country, and the feeling that your nation is the best one? That is the definition these people took, what do you take?

My definition of patriotism is to support everything that I believe is good in my country.
I can have pride in my country and yes, I can believe it is the best country in the world. But I can also totally respect other people belief that their country is better. I might not believe that they are right in that opnion but I try not to judge them for it as I would be letting myself open for judgement in return.

You are judging patriotism by what you see around you in the actions of others. I am judging patriotism by what I feel inside me.

ME the disease M.E.? (which I think is stretching it)

Or ME the Leveller? (which I would also dispute )

Um, you mean nationalism? Nationalism is just hyped up patriotism, and the USA is currently going through a period of nationalism. What is your definition of patriotism, if it is not a strong pride in your country, and the feeling that your nation is the best one? That is the definition these people took, what do you take?

Hitler: Stirred Germany into a patriotic frenzy with promises of a German return to its status as a world power. He told the people that their race, and in particular the aryans of Germany were better than the rest. Does this not satisfy your idea of patriotism?

Milosevic: Here is a perfect example. He told the Serbs that Serbia was better than the other Balkan states and increased Serbian nationalism. The combined patriotic hysteria coming from every country in the balkans (despite the fact that the only difference is religion) caused a massive bloodbath. Was the Serb/Croatian/Bosnian/Kosovan/Slovenian desire to break away from the oppressing state not Patriotic?

McCarthy: Took advantage of American Patriotism and paranoia to further his career and ruin peoples lives.

While you dont blindly run around with a gun shooting other nationalities while proclaiming patriotism, that is what Bush is asking the troops to do. They are not invading France, but they are invading other soverign countries.

Defintion of Patriot from Dictionary.COM:

\Pa"tri*ot\, n. [F. patriote; cf. Sp. patriota, It. patriotto; all fr. Gr. ? a fellow-countryman, fr. ? established by forefathers, fr. ? father. See Father.] One who loves his country, and zealously supports its authority and interests. --Bp. Hall.

It is supprising that you can get away with saying # but not shift

XAOS

Originally posted by xaos
Who's a cute liddle megalomaniac, come on who is the megalomaniac in my life? You are, yes you, you liddle egotist you

Hve a cookie

XAOS

LOL. Peace dude. I guess it might sound as if I'm a meglomaniac but that isn't the way I want to see myself or have others see me. Or maybe my definition of a meglomaniac is off the mark!!!
I do believe that I'm important though. Just the same way as I believe that everyone else is important.
If we were all meglomaniacs and realised our great worth then maybe we could get along with each other and be comfortable with our patriotism and not use it as a weapon.
I can find comfort in patriotism. i can see the good.
The only bad I see in it is the way that other people interpret it.


So still no cookie for you!!!



And bugger your dictionary definition!!! That's sneaky. Nobody said we were talking about a dictionary definition!!!

[Edited on 26-5-2003 by Leveller]

Ahh, ok, well you're strictly correct. Patriotism doesn't have to be bad, it's just that it invariably ends up being bad.

That's why I didn't just use the general catch-all "religion" as the reason wars start. In fact, it's just extremist forms of religion that try to impose their own beliefs on others that actually cause conflict.

Interestingly, American patriotism has incorporated this form of extremism more and more in recent years. Right now we have the US saying things like "You are not a democracy, but democracy's are the only true light in the world, you must die". And other ditties like "We can ignore international law, but you must obey us, because we know what's right for the world, and we're only doing this in your best interests". Or "We may abuse human rights, but we do it for a good reason, you abuse human rights because you are evil."

That's when patriotism becomes dangerous, when a whole country is convinced of it's absolute god-ordained right to piss about in other countries affairs, because it obviously knows better than any of the local peoples.

For an example of this hypocrisy consider the following question. If Iran had invaded Iraq, because Iraq was in breach of UN resolutions on WMD's, with the aim of establishing and Islamic state, what would have been the reaction of the Western world?

What, is that something that is travelling from military installation to installation to be shown off? If so, my bad. I thought it was somebody's ride. If I were still in the military it wouldn't do anything to boost my morale or pride. Job performance and good leadership did that, not a paintjob.

McCarthy? Why is he on that list? We now know that he was not as nutty as they wanted him to appear, and that those in his sights were to be suspected.

Dom, alot of good comes out of patriotism and it should be so obvious as to not have to be listed. If it must, the ones demanding it wouldn't catch it anyway.

And, don't get it confused with fanaticism.

LOL. And Dom. Just to prove I'm no meglomaniac, it's not THE Leveller.
It's just Leveller.

Just a thought, but maybe I define "patriotism" differently than you. I certainly don't define it as the dictionary definition that Xaos gives.
I see patriotism as being much more flexible than just giving blind support to everything that your government does.

Fair, I'm still not sure what good it does though. Other than giving the "special" people something to feel good about of course...

Originally posted by JediMaster
Beautiful carm, good find MM.

BC, and AA name one country where you can have more freedom than the USA? And please if you hate America get out.

Canada!?!?

LOL Damn you!!!!

What's so wrong about feeling good about something if you can keep it under control and keep it from harming yourself and others?

Isn't that what we do every day in everything we do in our lives? Try to feel good but not harm others?

It's not weak. It's not special. It's just an understanding that you come to with your birthplace.

Patriotism, Dom, I mean real patriotism, can help maintain the culture and integrity of a nation. It gives a collective sense of pride and kinsmanship among the inhabitants of the nation. It is a reminder that we all have a stake in the survival of the nation and we all have a reason to stand together against the barbarians at the gate that want to sack our nation, our people, our homes and our way of life.
This notion goes for everyone and all nations.

I respect those who have pride in their own nations. I expect them to feel their nation is better than mine, for whatever reasons. I feel there is honor in them and among them.

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein

Anyway, I don't quite think I said I hated America, though there are many things I dislike about how America has turned out since we stole the land from the Native-Americans.

It's great that people decided that America was worth their life. Yet it's pretty darn sad that each and everyday we add new laws and remove our own freedoms. We should have just stuck with the basics as:

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves." - Thomas Jefferson

You know, it's when the country starts making laws for everything that peoples freedoms slowly decline and this leads to the destruction of the government through revolution. And we continue to repeat history over and over again.

dragonrider - It looks like dom already took care of the list of countries for you

Tell me, what is the point of immigrating if everywhere you go there is government with the same problems..? Why would I need to immigrate when everywhere is just as good as here?

Ninjaofthenight -If you havent noticed, I think there is only one inhabitable planet in our solar system, the polution we put out through use of cars on other such techno-plagues is reaking havoc on our world (yes our world, every human has a right to live as they wish in this world that they were placed on by god or pure evolutionary luck). But back to the point SUV's are pretty dang unefficient, meaning they get less mileage for the pollution they put out, its kind of ironic dontcha think, how we "love our nation" yet love it enough to pollute it to all hell.

Leveller - Unfortunately I think I am being less short-sighted than yourself, whereas you only consider your life in America, I consider the world as a whole. We're all the same, except for the boundaries put up by politics.

"You seek to free yourself yet you mock people who practice the right of freedom that they have!!!! " - Leveller

Like we sought to free ourselves from Iraqi oppression! Assuming that is why these people decided to paint their car like that (which does seem logical, as that is the most recent war - which patriots just love; lets protect our own freedom while taking away other peoples! woohoo!!!) Cletus get mah shotgun!

Patriotism is a bad thing because it leads to nationalism, which leads to blindness, which leads to you allowing the people who rule you to do whatever they like (including: war, genocide, economic genocide, trading freedom for security (goooo patriot act/s, lets keep this up, etc.).

Do you think I really care how you perceive my ideas, remember that almost everybody in America lives their life selling theirselves into the governments economic slave-system. Most people are completely oblivious to the issues involving the entire planet. That government cures nothing as its supposed to, but is an illusion of security and freedom. Yet being the weak followers that most people on the planet are, they wouldnt dare to oppose anothers ideas for fear of being isolated. Everybody just wants to be accepted into the collective.

Leveller - It's too bad you shrug of the downsides off patriotism which xaos listed. But as it says in the film that parallels life perfectly (The Matrix) "Ignorance is bliss". Enjoy it!!

Patriotism is fanaticism. Patriotism is just the fanatic support for ones nation.

"Patriotism, Dom, I mean real patriotism, can help maintain the culture and integrity of a nation. It gives a collective sense of pride and kinsmanship among the inhabitants of the nation." - Thomas Crowne

In my opinion (which undoubtedly doesnt matter on this site anymore), collectivism is exactly what is wrong with humanity. If everybody would just be themselves and think for themselves life would be peachy keen. Yet this can never occur since if the U.S.A. just decided to disband, we would be conquered by another collective government. Therefore, as long as government exists (forever), we must continue to function as scattered collectives (instead of one collective).

"Beware the leader who bangs the drum of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor. For patriotism is indeed a double edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and patriotism, will offer up all of their rights to the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Julius Caesar." - Julius Caesar

But, lets not learn from the past! Let's repeat history into infinity!!

[Edited on 27-5-2003 by Attero Auctorita]

Originally posted by Attero Auctorita


1) Leveller - Unfortunately I think I am being less short-sighted than yourself, whereas you only consider your life in America, I consider the world as a whole.

2) Do you think I really care how you perceive my ideas

3) Leveller - It's too bad you shrug of the downsides off patriotism which xaos listed. But as it says in the film that parallels life perfectly (The Matrix) "Ignorance is bliss". Enjoy it!!

4) Patriotism is fanaticism. Patriotism is just the fanatic support for ones nation.

5) In my opinion (which undoubtedly doesnt matter on this site anymore), collectivism is exactly what is wrong with humanity. If everybody would just be themselves and think for themselves life would be peachy keen.

1) I'm a Brit. Maybe I don't see "your" version of patriotism.
As for being short sighted? That's a bit of a slur isn't it? I've already proven you wrong that my only consideration is "life in America". Do I need to prove you wrong about that too?


2) Who cares what you think?


3) Xaos' downsides were his downsides. They apply to his view of patriotism. I don't define those downsides to be relavent to my perception of my own patriotism.
"Ignorance is bliss"? Well, you tell me. I see myself as the one with the benefits. What have you got but a fanatical hatred at a subject which you have generalized?


4) Again. That's your perception. Maybe you can't understand the concept of my "patriotism".
Fanatic support for ones nation? Please tell me what harm my version of patriotism would do to anyone? Whilst you're at it please explain why I'm a fanatic? You'd probably find that you would be far more willing to die for your country than I would. And please understand it this time. DEFINE MY VERSION. NOT YOUR DEFINED VERSION.


5) In my opinion (which undoubtedly doesnt matter on this site anymore) - sounds suspiciously like you hope we care.

And as for being individuals? Get real. We're a pack animal. There's safety in numbers. Didn't they teach you anything on the school trip to the aquarium?

Thomas Crowne

You actually see the word "as* " as "filthy" talk?

Of course I know that Bush and Rumsfeld are just puppets; I was just talking about the snaKKKes that actually show their faces on a regular basis.

All

I certainly don't blame Muslims for calling the United Snakes the "Great Satan". But bear in mind, that some of the greatest minds will come out of this country, due to the trials and tribulations of such a materialistic and ego ridden place.

When you tell people who don't agree with this country, to leave it; you're contradicting what the true definition of freedom is. I'm not telling you that you can't or shouldn't say it (that would be another contradiction) but that your being contradictive.


Peace

[Edited on 5-27-2003 by BuddhaCession]

Never mind. NM.

[Edited on 5-27-2003 by BuddhaCession]

If America is soo bad, why do so many people from around the world want to live here?

The only people I see bashing America are stupid people from other countries who would jump at the chance to move here. And idiotic spoiled rotten 14 years that think they know everything. I say we ship the 14 years olds to Mexico and let them see just how great this country is.

Iriana Hoffington is a damn foreigner that needs to shut her mouth and leave this country. I once met her in person while helping her husband�s campaign in California and she was driving an SUV. They are all hipocrates. They are so angry that people aren�t voting for them they come up with stupid ideas like SUV�s helping terrorist. They forget that those SUV�s provide jobs for Americans and without those jobs those people would end up on Welfare. Aren�t they for jobs for Americans? Truth is they and all politicians are only for their own selfish goals.

What we need in America is more Patriotism, especially in politics...


GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

Originally posted by BuddhaCession
Thomas Crowne

You actually see the word "as* " as "filthy" talk?

Of course I know that Bush and Rumsfeld are just puppets; I was just talking about the snaKKKes that actually show their faces on a regular basis.

All

I certainly don't blame Muslims for calling the United Snakes the "Great Satan". But bear in mind, that some of the greatest minds will come out of this country, due to the trials and tribulations of such a materialistic and ego ridden place.

When you tell people who don't agree with this country, to leave it; you're contradicting what the true definition of freedom is. I'm not telling you that you can't or shouldn't say it (that would be another contradiction) but that your being contradictive.


Peace

[Edited on 5-27-2003 by BuddhaCession]

I'm sorry, I have no idea why you have directed this part of the dialogue at me as I don't remember saying anything that would have created these thoughts. As far as the word "as" being filthy, not to my knowledge. But I guess it depends on your definition of "as".

I blame the Muslims who foment that belief that we are the great satan. The typical citizen of Iran or any other Islamic nation has a media more biased than even ours, and it is controlled, of course, by the Muslim leadership.

As far as this place being materialistic and "ego-ridden" (We haven't ridded thios place of egos! Hell, it would take a cleanup crew 6 years to rid the place of Ted Turner's ego alone!), the reason why this nation has been able to help so many ungrateful nations, and why the citizenry has been able to donate private money to help feed so many otehrs is because we are capitalistic. We earn and then we give some away. Capitalism is good. Work is healthy. Earn as much as you can! Then, not only can you have better things, you can help others as well.

TC

I said: ["Dammit. We can't even say as* without it getting changed to ass!?"]

You said: ["B-C, its a shame that the computer has to censor those of us who feel he need to talk filthy on the board. I say "us" because I'm one of "us". "]


Anyway; I don't need to listen to a biased Muslim media or any other Arab media; for me to understand why they call AmeriKKKa the "Great Satan". I live here and I see why every day. I'm not saying anything good about Arab countries; I can just see why they say what they say about this country.

Capitalism in it's purest form could be a good thing but so could communism.

In a capitalistic society such as ours; the elite hog most of the money to themselves and let the poor compete for whatever's left.
In most communist countries, they hog most of the money for themselves then evenly distribute whatever's left.

AmeriKKKa's form of capitalism is what I call "manipulated free-will". Many Americans only think, that they are free.

The United Snakes doesn't give sh*t, compared to how much they take.


Peace

I'd just like to say that calling America, AmeriKKKa does nothing for your argument.