Babylon, Islam and magic

My thoughts on the matter are that God set the universe in motion and did so according to laws he set in place. Magic attempts to get around or outright break those laws for the convenience of the practitioner in various ways using various forces. As this breaks God's laws, it has been, well, outlawed.

168617
I think the Muslim's would know a bit more about their history than some yank 20,000km away.

1 - Muslims in the 'muslim world' aren't allowed to know about the origins of Islam. They only get spoon fed the information the Imams want them to have in order to keep control over them. If any Muslim spoke the truth about Muhammad - that he was a murdering caravan thief, then that Muslim would himself be murdered.

2 - If you deny the fact that the Qu'ran and Islam are just a twisted shadow of Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and paganism ... then you don't know the history at all. Even the so-called assent to Heaven is just stolen from the Pahlavi text called Arta (predates Islam by hundreds of years). And Muslim 'heaven' is a rip off of the Hindu 'paradise'. All of it comes, twisted, from somewhere else.

3 - It's comical that you accuse Christianity of being 'pagan' ... to use your own words back - I think Christians know a bit more about their history than some Muslim 20,000 km away.

4 - Wanna' talk pagan? Take a look at Hajj and it's idolatry. Worship of a meteorite and circumambulation of it is directly taken from the pagans of that area. Throwing stones at the devil and running between the hills ... also taken directly from the pagans of that area.

Bottom line - to the OP - No... the Qu'ran isn't historical. It was written hundreds and thousands of years after the events ... by a murdering caravan thief. It's his own concoction.

sk0rpi0n
Islam perfectly mirrors the life of Jesus...as a MAN sent by God as the gospels teach.

Islam is devoid of mercy. Jesus is Mercy Incarnate. Islam is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. When Islam stops stoning people to death and stops putting people to death for so called 'blasphemy' ... then we can talk. Until then .. NOPE.

Christians who believe a man (Jesus) is God Almighty are proved wrong by their own scriptures.

I know you are desperate to believe that ... because your religion becomes irrelevant otherwise.
But it's not true. Scripture clearly shows Jesus is God. You've been shown this many times.
And that's a topic for a different thread ... not this one.

Bottom line - The OP asked if the Qu'ran was a historical document for the time period of Solomon.
The answer is 'no'. It's not.

ketsuko
My thoughts on the matter are that God set the universe in motion and did so according to laws he set in place. Magic attempts to get around or outright break those laws for the convenience of the practitioner in various ways using various forces. As this breaks God's laws, it has been, well, outlawed.

Hmm... Thanks for your input. Wouldn't any kind of science or technology pretty much qualify to be breaking God's laws? When did this magic begin? When Adam and Eve took a bite of that apple? Which probably is an allegorical story. There probably never was an apple or two people called Adam and Eve, nor a snake. The fact that this so called magic is so seemingly hazily defined and such a broad term, leaves me with nothing but a feeling of

"and...?"

that, and an urge to pull my hair out

@FlyersFan...
Islam is devoid of mercy.

Emotional banter.

Jesus is Mercy Incarnate.

Jesus also said to do as the merciless Pharisees instructed.

Scripture clearly shows Jesus is God.

scripture clearly shown Jesus ''God'' prayed to God and took orders from Him. So, he wasn't God.

reply to post by FlyersFan


What makes you think Mohammed was some caravan thief? Did one of those Atheist scholars say that? As for Western Christianity, no they wouldn't know the truth about Jesus because back in the day the Roman's decided what it was people like you would believe and one of them was a Pagan/Christian deity who had superman powers and his birthday just happened to fall on Saturnalia. I think you should do a history lesson on your own religion before you go knocking someone elses. Not only that, Western Christianity is one big Idolatry fest and that goes against the very teaching's that you believe are the most accurate. Nothing but hypocritical liars. If anything, your likely going to hell if the place exists.

introspectionist

ketsuko
My thoughts on the matter are that God set the universe in motion and did so according to laws he set in place. Magic attempts to get around or outright break those laws for the convenience of the practitioner in various ways using various forces. As this breaks God's laws, it has been, well, outlawed.

Hmm... Thanks for your input. Wouldn't any kind of science or technology pretty much qualify to be breaking God's laws? When did this magic begin? When Adam and Eve took a bite of that apple? Which probably is an allegorical story. There probably never was an apple or two people called Adam and Eve, nor a snake. The fact that this so called magic is so seemingly hazily defined and such a broad term, leaves me with nothing but a feeling of

"and...?"

that, and an urge to pull my hair out

From my point of view 2 interesting things about Genesis is:
1 The spiritual allegory of the human falling into ego duality (the eating of the apple of "Tree of the knowledge of good and evil") thinking it knows true good and evil based on conditioning from culture/upbringing.

2 The 2nd one is the Sumerian Annunaki genetically evolving lesser human species into Homo Sapiens Sapiens to mine gold for them. That one is a really interesting what if this is how we where created.

Magic or Intention->manifestation thru chi flow I leave to other threads discussing chakras and meditation. If magic is wrong then Jesus is in a way the biggest lawbreaker of them all. . Like everything else it can be used for ego parasitic things and for symbiotic good of all.

168617
What makes you think Mohammed was some caravan thief?

Dude .. crack open a history book and shake off the indoctrination from the Imams. Muhammad was a dirty slave trader ... getting slaves by raiding peaceful people and stealing them, and their goods. He faked visions from God and gave no proof of any truth to his statements.

Like God is going to come down in 600 AD and tell a murdering caravan thief the secrets of the universe? Yeah .. okay.

If anything, your likely going to hell if the place exists.

Typical religious extremist arrogant rhetoric .... daring to judge the souls of others who worship God differently .. and daring to judge them as 'going to hell'. Judging souls is a job for GOD ALONE. And dude, you are not God. Putting yourself in His shoes is a big no no.


This thread is about the Qu'ran and if it's a reliable historical document.
The answer is ... NO. It absolutely is not.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You've been proven wrong on all that in other threads. I won't get off topic by attempting to, once again, educate you about what Christianity believes and why. It's off topic and you refuse to listen anyways. Sad ....

reply to post by FlyersFan


Ok, how do you explain this one.... Why is it that just about everytime someone puts Jesus in a image or plays the part of Jesus he has long hair yet when you read the Bible, it clearly states this below

Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonour to him? Cor 11:14

Tell me, why is it Western society dishonours Jesus in this way? But it get's better. The Roman Catholic Church for instance.. Why is it they are celibate but the Bible also warns about what's written below

Now the spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with hot Iron, Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which god created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth 1 Tim 4:1,3

It sure put's doubt in the credibility of your version of religion and that's without the Pagan Sun God/Idol/Easter bunny/Saturnalia bs.

@FlyersFan...You've been proven wrong on all that in other threads.

No. You've only thrown a bunch of opinions at those threads...and in the process demonstrated that you aren't a biblical christian. Also the fact that you used an avatar depicting the ''holy'' cross of christianity in poor light proves you aren't a real christian.

@ 168617...

It sure put's doubt in the credibility of your version of religion and that's without the Pagan Sun God/Idol/Easter bunny/Saturnalia bs.

Thats because christianity IS pagan in essence. Their ideas of a man-god and multiple deities are no different from the man-gods/multiple deities of pagan religions. The Romans into whos hands christianity fell were pagans themselves.

introspectionist

ketsuko
My thoughts on the matter are that God set the universe in motion and did so according to laws he set in place. Magic attempts to get around or outright break those laws for the convenience of the practitioner in various ways using various forces. As this breaks God's laws, it has been, well, outlawed.

Hmm... Thanks for your input. Wouldn't any kind of science or technology pretty much qualify to be breaking God's laws? When did this magic begin? When Adam and Eve took a bite of that apple? Which probably is an allegorical story. There probably never was an apple or two people called Adam and Eve, nor a snake. The fact that this so called magic is so seemingly hazily defined and such a broad term, leaves me with nothing but a feeling of

"and...?"

that, and an urge to pull my hair out

Not, IMO, but I'm coming from a Christian perspective. God gave us dominion. Science attempts to understand the fundamental laws of the universe and work within them, not break them.

An example, you have to understand science and work with it to make an airplane fly. Magic would be to simply fly in direct contravention of the laws of nature and Nature's God.

Now, as our understanding has become more sophisticated ... have we reached the point where we should stop? At what point should we stop? Does science cross the line into what God would consider "magic?" Or does it simple cross the line into territory where we should stop and think long and hard about whether or not we should ...

introspectionist
In Sunni Islam they are opposed to the practice of "magic". When I hear that my instinctual reaction is to feel that the word "magic" is very vague and badly defined in the context. And that makes me want not to avoid whatever appears to be related but instead research the subject as thoroughly as my feeble mind can manage.

Maybe the Quran is an allegorical myth and not a historical account.

Sura 2:102

And they followed [instead] what the devils had recited during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but the devils disbelieved, teaching people magic and that which was revealed to the two angels at Babylon, Harut and Marut. But the two angels do not teach anyone unless they say, "We are a trial, so do not disbelieve [by practicing magic]." And [yet] they learn from them that by which they cause separation between a man and his wife. But they do not harm anyone through it except by permission of Allah . And the people learn what harms them and does not benefit them. But the Children of Israel certainly knew that whoever purchased the magic would not have in the Hereafter any share. And wretched is that for which they sold themselves, if they only knew.

What is this magic they're talking about? Why are they against it?

How do I know if it's not the case that I am in Babylon right now, and all this interesting stuff I "stumble across" such as Kabbalah, Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Judaism, Freemasonry, Kundalini yoga, meditation and other things are this "magic" being handed down to me by Harut and Marut? How am I supposed to know what path is right if I don't study all kinds of things? I cannot sympathize with those with "blind faith" or those who say "I know the truth". If someone vaguely talks about magic I want to know everything about magic. If someone says Christianity is corrupt and led astray then I want to know exactly how and why, I don't just accept it because it's written so on a piece of paper or because some guy says it's so because he heard 10 people say so.

edit on 58430Sun, 13 Apr 2014 01:58:42 -0500201442pAmerica/Chicago2014-04-13T01:58:42-05:0030 by introspectionist because: (no reason given)

I am descended recently from Sephardi Jews. Does this mean that I am a part of this Zionist conspiracy?

reply to post by 168617

This is a thread about the Qu'ran and if it's reliable historically. It's not.
How about you stay on topic. Address the fact that the Qu'ran isn't a historical document.
You can go start a Christian bashing thread elsewhere.

sk0rpi0n
Thats because christianity IS pagan in essence.

... says the Muslim who has a Hajj that worships a meteorite ... and runs in circles around it ... and runs between hills .. all taken from the pagans.

Their ideas of a man-god and multiple deities ...

Now, now .. you know that Christianity doesn't have 'multiple deities'. ONE GOD ... three manifestations. How about you address the topic of the thread ... the fact that the Qur'an is not a reliable historical document.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Dead wrong on all counts. And, as usual, just off topic personal insult attempts.
How about you address the topic of this thread - that the Qu'ran is not an accurate historical document.

reply to post by 168617


Be that the case, the Islam website should be taken down because with its use of Shariah Law, it clearly states killing all non-believers in the name of allah. Go read it lol . Are you saying Shariah and Quran are separate?

reply to post by 168617


They could never prove they are Israel/Canaanites because they are Khazars carrying a black magic corporate flag, not a religious one. Nothing of Israel except Jerusalem is even authentic. check youtube

@FlyersFan... you know that Christianity doesn't have 'multiple deities'. ONE GOD ... three manifestations.

Father, son and Holy spirit amount to three entities. ''Trinity'', like ''triplets'', ''trilogy'' etc. denote a set of three.