Muslim Extremists Preach Violence in Europe

I think that in the netherlands we are slowly starting to see that we as a culture may have been too allowing and tolerant towards a culture that is not tolerant and allowing back at all.

It is a culture clash, no matter how you put it. And where "we" often compromise and put aside our differences in order to maintain peace and harmony, in the Islamic culture and religion it is not that common to put aside your differences or compromise.

Currently "Geert Wilders" by some seen as the "anti Islam" politician of the netherlands, is rising so fast in the polls, that he alone may become the biggest party in the next elections.

There are several ways to interpret these polls, simple-minded "outsiders" could conclude we are no longer tolerant or even becoming a racist country.
Truth is (always) more nuanced though, and the real reason for the sudden poll-madness is the stack of the history we as a country have regarding people from marocco and the Islamic culture and their effect on our country.

Believe me, we have no interest in generalizing, neither are we afraid of any race or country, or do we look down on anyone.

But when a problem was detected, and this problem had to do with a certain race in your country, policians in the netherlands ignored the problem because they did not want to burn themselves trying to solve it, for solving it would require them to talk in terms of races and after WWII it's better to be hysterically politically correct, than be called racist by a small group of people who do not understand these problems.

When a problem is ignored for a long time, the first next polician that does adres it will get all the support in the world, regardless of his opinions on issues not related to the problem.

Originally posted by LostSailor
The growing muslim population in the Netherlands is threating the liberal freedoms they held so proudly for years!

- and just how are they doing that?

Why did all these muslims move to the Netherlands? They knew how... free... the people were there yet they moved there anyways.

- The usual reason is an existant community due to historic reasons (the country's old empire usually).

Now they are slowly becoming a majority there and trying to change the Netherlands to better suit their muslim ideals.

- No they aren't.
They are just over 6% of the population and are nowhere near becoming a "majority".
This is so exaggerated and far removed from reality as to be simply nuts.

There s quite a struggle going on in the Netherlands atm, it may not be the great... vacation spot... it once was.

- There is debate amongst some, just like there is across Europe, about this.....where and what do you imagine and mean "there is quite a struggle going on", how, in what way?

Your comment about Holland not being so great a vacation spot implies what? Danger? What new, increased, danger?

And for Gods sake I'm not a racist nor do I believe all muslims to be violent killing machines... so don't dunk my face in this mud pit of name calling some of you are trying to start here.

- Personally speaking I'm just trying to understand how you can tack on to a thread where a Dutch person has already shown Muslims to be slightly over 6% right now - and has posted a link showing that extrapolating a currently very high rate of population growth (which imagines a sustained rate however unlikely) might indicate a possible Muslim population of 20% in 50yrs - and then start claiming Muslim majorities now!?

How does that work?

Erm pinky, there is a crisis going on in the netherlands, wether or not you -as an outsider- want to believe it or not.
And it also common knowledge that muslims do want to change the laws in any country they live in to suit their religion better.

Wether or not muslims will become a majority in the netherlands has to be seen, I am not sure wether that will happen in the near future, and if so wether other people from the netherlands will allow it to happen.

For now it's just the 6.25 % I mentioned, still growing.

Also pinky, 6.25 % is not "just" 6.25 %.
It is actually a lot, if you compare it to how it was 10 years ago.

Originally posted by Jakko
Erm pinky, there is a crisis going on in the netherlands, wether or not you -as an outsider- want to believe it or not.

- OK, Jakko. You see a 'crisis'. Fair enough.
Compared to what has maybe gone before it is.
Whether it rates quite as highly as you imagine is another matter.

I am a European and I am hardly an outsider to this idiotic exaggeration of this implied 'Muslim threat'. We get enough of this foolishness in the UK as it is.

And it also common knowledge that muslims do want to change the laws in any country they live in to suit their religion better.

- Well if it is anything like changes asked for in the UK they will not amount to much.
It amounts to no more than a few regulations and amybe issues relating to 'charitable tax status' in relation to schools operating under their own religious rules, maybe some food preparation law and so forth, all small stuff and little or no big deal.

(unless you have any examples of these scary changes in the law to suit 'them' which works against 'us' that I haven't heard of, huh?)

Just because a few of extremist Muslim mouth-pieces will pop up from time to time make idiotic demands is no reason to imagine 'they're taking over' or any of the rest of the 'sky falling in' nonsense.

Wether or not muslims will become a majority in the netherlands has to be seen, I am not sure wether that will happen in the near future, and if so wether other people from the netherlands will allow it to happen.

For now it's just the 6.25 % I mentioned, still growing.

Also pinky, 6.25 % is not "just" 6.25 %.
It is actually a lot, if you compare it to how it was 10 years ago.

- Look mate starting from a point now of 6.25% means there is no realistic prospect of a Muslim majority in the Netherlands.

.....and absolutely not in the near future.

There is nothing for anyone to 'allow' or not.

Wake up.

Pinkey,

have you done any research into this? Or are you just spouting your thoughts?

The muslims in the Netherlands want to change the whole tolerance thing the Dutch have worked so hard for.

That means no tolerence towards light drugs, prostitutes, etc.
(Thats what i meant by the tourism comment before... not that everyone goes to the Netherlands for these reasons only.)

I am not exactly for these things either, but they are trying to change the entire dutch way of life to better suit their religious ideals.

Why did they start moving there if not to try and change these things (a conspiracy theory perhaps)? Maybe you should look into it before bashing what people say in these threads?

Bah, what would I know... I'm an ignorant American

BTW,
Have you ever agreed with anyone here?

have you done any research into this? Or are you just spouting your thoughts?

might the fact he lives here not qualify him to have knowledge?

The muslims in the Netherlands want to change the whole tolerance thing the Dutch have worked so hard for.

thats a single country. not a continent.

That means no tolerence towards light drugs, prostitutes, etc.
(Thats what i meant by the tourism comment before... not that everyone goes to the Netherlands for these reasons only.)

0 tolerance is good.

I am not exactly for these things either, but they are trying to change the entire dutch way of life to better suit their religious ideals.

uhh no mabye they live there and want to change it for better.
they live there and know what it is like to live with.

Why did they start moving there if not to try and change these things (a conspiracy theory perhaps)? Maybe you should look into it before bashing what people say in these threads?

you think every muslim is an imagrient?
uhh no there are non imagrient muslims

Bah, what would I know... I'm an ignorant American

your words not ours

BTW,
Have you ever agreed with anyone here?

yup..............................a few people i am one of those few.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I am a European and I am hardly an outsider to this idiotic exaggeration of this implied 'Muslim threat'. We get enough of this foolishness in the UK as it is.

Idiotic exaggeration?
When muslims are celebrating when the trade center gets destroyed, when famous people get killed by muslim extremists, when Imams in the netherlands say that gay people should be thrown of a flat with their faces facing the ground, I start to wonder what more you need to see the light.

Sure not all muslims are like this, which is why I refuse to generalize no matter what happens, but that does not mean we can continue ignoring the problems we face.

Originally posted by LostSailor
have you done any research into this? Or are you just spouting your thoughts?

- It's not exactly a new topic to us here in Europe whether that be here in the UK or the continent itself.

Unfortunately there are always those who will attempt to use the issues of the day to promote their agenda.

At the moment the reactionary 'rising tide' crowd are focussing on Muslims, tomorrow who knows but undoubtedly we'll be under some sort of 'threat' that will attempt to exploit us for 'going too far' with out liberties or being too 'open', 'weak' and 'liberal'.

Same old same old.

The muslims in the Netherlands want to change the whole tolerance thing the Dutch have worked so hard for.

- Well that's all nice and very vague and all but what exactly do you think it is that are 'they' trying to do.....specifically?

Using their vote in a manner they deem correct? Wow. Radical.

That means no tolerence towards light drugs, prostitutes, etc.
(Thats what i meant by the tourism comment before... not that everyone goes to the Netherlands for these reasons only.)

As many of this 'they' are now tax-paying voting residents of the Netherlands are 'they' not entitled to a view on the issues of drugs and prostitution just like everyone else?

Why should their rejection of these things be seen as any different to the other Dutch who disagree with and reject this?

Do you really think their religion or roots bar them from having an opinion or a say? Why?

I am not exactly for these things either, but they are trying to change the entire dutch way of life to better suit their religious ideals.

- How? Specifically. What do you mean?
What exactly is this "way of life" you imagine is under 'threat'?

The way of life of the Netherlands is a damned sight more than having freedom for hypocrite Americans to come over and do drugs or prostitution and then return to the puritan states feeling great about it all.....and you'll find evangelical fundamentalist 'Christians' (in larger numbers than the Muslim activists) trying to campaign for these things to be stopped too....but no doubt their attack on the Dutch 'way of life' will pass unremarked here. Funny that, huh?

Why did they start moving there if not to try and change these things (a conspiracy theory perhaps)?

- Well matey it'd be a pretty dumb conspiracy theory if you want to put it forward.
I already said.
Most immigrants want to head for and settle in countries where there is already a settled ethnic community of that kind. Usually this is because the the host countries' history with empire.

Alternatively the host countries agree to let them settle there. Since WW2 European countries have taken in many peoples from all over the world.

No secret mysteries and no huge conspiracy......and in any case since when were 'they' all of the same view and 'all' trying to do this something you believe is going on anyway?

Maybe you should look into it before bashing what people say in these threads?

- Now hang on. I'm not bashing anyone.

I'm just questioning some pretty obviously stupid sweeping claims (even on the basis of the supporting 'evidence' given they're pretty stupid sweeping claims).

Prime amongst these was the ludicrous claim that '99% of Europe will be Muslin in this century'.

I mean this is supposed to be a 'deny ignorance' forum is it not?

Would you not agree that was an absurdly ignorant claim?

Bah, what would I know... I'm an ignorant American

- OK, your call, if you say so.

BTW,
Have you ever agreed with anyone here?

- Yeah, lots of times.

What of it?

Is this not a discussion board? Am I not right in presuming that that implies a variance of view from time to time and that this is quite normal and unremarkable?

You'll see Devilwasp has answered that one nicely too, cheers Devilwasp!

Originally posted by Jakko
Idiotic exaggeration?

- Yes, I honestly believe a large proportion of this is just that.

When muslims are celebrating when the trade center gets destroyed, when famous people get killed by muslim extremists, when Imams in the netherlands say that gay people should be thrown of a flat with their faces facing the ground, I start to wonder what more you need to see the light.

- A tiny minority of Muslims celebrated the destruction of the towers, most Muslim countries sent messages of support and condolence to the USA over that.

A tiny gang of fanatics who are responsible for murdering a famous person is hardly a 'guage' of the views and attitudes of wider Muslim community.

.....and a public statement of gross intolerance by a cleric from the Muslim community is no more a worry to me than the same - far more frequent - ignorant intollent stupidity from a so-called evangelical fundamentalist 'Christian' clerics.
They represent a minority of opinion with the whole community.

Sure not all muslims are like this, which is why I refuse to generalize no matter what happens, but that does not mean we can continue ignoring the problems we face.

- Actually I'm not suggesting we ignore any actual problems we face.

I am suggesting we stop wasting our time and efforts imagining vast threats everywhere that aren't actually there and start looking sensibly at those that actually do exist.

I have seen a lot of this happen before with regard to the 'Irish problems' in the UK.
The language we are hearing now is very similar and the effects of the wrong approach will be very similar.
This will mean, IMO, that we dillute and waste some of the efforts that need to be turned on the small groups which actually are a problem because we have refused to employ proportion and rational to the problem such as it is.




[edit on 29-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Nice open ended questions you asked... All of which I already answered in previous posts.

I can see from some of your replies you have no idea what life in America is like and are ignorant for even pretending to know. There is more going on here then what you see on Ricki Lake, The Simpsons, etc. oh yeah and your BBC.

The fact is, even as a minority group in the Netherlands, the muslims are trying to change things to better suit their religious beliefs.

Keep your blindfold on.

And yes, I've been to the U.K., Netherlands, and Germany numerous times.

[edit on 29-11-2004 by LostSailor]

Originally posted by LostSailor
Nice open ended questions you asked... All of which I already answered in previous posts.

- But you have not.
You seem to think tax-payers with the right to vote shouldn't be able to express their view if they are of a certain 'background', why not?

.....and you did not explain what you meant by this attack on the Dutch "way of life". Why?

I can see from some of your replies you have no idea what life in America is like and are ignorant for even pretending to know. There is more going on here then what you see on Ricki Lake, The Simpsons, etc. oh yeah and your BBC.

- Er, what? I made a quip about US drug tourism (you afterall mentioned this in the 1st place) and what of it? Do you deny this goes on?
Hell, it goes on from all over Europe, no need to be so shy.

Again I asked this in connection to the threat to the Dutch "way of life" you say is under threat.....how come you won't explain yourself?

What has any of this got to do with "Ricki Lake" (jayzuss you must be joking) or "The Simpsons" (quality show, IMO).

The fact is, even as a minority group in the Netherlands, the muslims are trying to change things to better suit their religious beliefs.

- 6.25% approx, entitled (if they have the vote) to express a view like anyone else. A tiny minority. So what?

Keep your blindfold on.

- Would this be the type of one that simply accepts idiocy like a Muslim Europe within this century?

And yes, I've been to the U.K., Netherlands, and Germany numerous times.

- ....ok and what?

The fact is, even as a minority group in the Netherlands, the muslims are trying to change things to better suit their religious beliefs.

Geeeeeez man,,,, yer nuts!!!

I'm telling you that they are trying to change the dutch way of life (meaning tolerance!!!) through other means besides voting beccause b]they are a minority there and they KNOW IT!!!

Look it up...

It's like talking to a brick wall.

Originally posted by LostSailor


I'm telling you that they are trying to change the dutch way of life (meaning tolerance!!!) through other means besides voting beccause b]they are a minority there and they KNOW IT!!!

.

so ALL muslims are in on this?
this is a great plot against us? huh?

Originally posted by LostSailor
The fact is, even as a minority group in the Netherlands, the muslims are trying to change things to better suit their religious beliefs.

- ....and I'm asking you how you think this is happening?

You keep making the claims.

Geeeeeez man,,,, yer nuts!!!

- Look matey you keep making the unsubstantiated claims, not I.

I'm telling you that they are trying to change the dutch way of life (meaning tolerance!!!) through other means besides voting beccause b]they are a minority there and they KNOW IT!!!

Look it up...

It's like talking to a brick wall.

- .....and I'm saying that
1) the decriminalisation of 'soft drugs' is not the Dutch "way of life"
2) neither is legal prostitution.

Muslim voters in Holland are entitled to a view just like fundamentalist 'Christians' who would hold much the same views there are they not?

....and you keep avoiding the point about what exactly is their 'attack' on the Dutch "way if life", beyond your comments regarding drugs and prostitution is there anything else? A Muslim cleric making intollerent comments is somehow meant to be more 'worrying' than fundamentalist 'Christian' clerics is it?

......and what are these 'other means' you mention?

The brick wall here is IMO your silence over the patently dumb remarks about 'a Muslim Europe this century' and your evasion over perfectly common minority opinions - held by many - within Holland.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Muslim voters in Holland are entitled to a view just like fundamentalist 'Christians' who would hold much the same views there are they not?

They are not.
Listen why don't you first try to get a clear picture regarding what exactly it is that fundamental muslims say and do, and what fundamental christians say and do ok?
It is indeed like talking to a brick wall.
And a stubborn one too.

Pinkey,

Did you read any of the other threads before you started posting? Look back at them and read them. I shouldn't have to restate things that have already been posted by me or other ATS members. The "other methods" are already stated. I never said anything about Muslims being a majority... I don't know what you're talking about there.

P.S. I was calling you nuts... not I

[edit on 29-11-2004 by LostSailor]

Originally posted by Jakko
They are not.

- What, they aren't entitled to a say?
Wow, how does that one work? You expect 'them' to be tax-payers and vote but only for the things or want the things you want them to?

Listen why don't you first try to get a clear picture regarding what exactly it is that fundamental muslims say and do, and what fundamental christians say and do ok?

- I think you are confusing 'fundamentalism' for extremism.
I see little difference between Muslim fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists.

....and I don't agree with over-reacting to the handful of actual extremists (whether they call themselves 'Islamic' or not).

It is indeed like talking to a brick wall.
And a stubborn one too.

- Sorry but you have said nothing so far which convinces me that Dutch society is under any kind of genuine actual threat at all.

Originally posted by LostSailor
Pinkey,

Did you read any of the other threads before you started posting?

- Er, yes. If you look you'll see I have been to-ing anf fro-ing on this from pretty early on.

Look back at them and read them. I shouldn't have to restate things that have already been posted by me or other ATS members. The "other methods" are already stated.

- Where?
I haven't seen anything that remotely justifies your comment that the Dutch "way of life" is under threat at all.

(except for your absurd implied notion that the Dutch "way of life" is all about legal prostitution and the ability to smoke dope in public freely in licenced caf�s.)

I never said anything about Muslims being a majority... I don't know what you're talking about there.

P.S. I was calling you nuts... not I

- So you haven't bothered reading the thread properly then, huh?



[edit on 29-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Europeans dont care what muslims say. Trust me i know. And the muslims in Europe arent violent or anything. They drink wine and eat ham and prochute. They dont pray 5 times a day hell youd be lucky if they prayed once a day.

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Croat69]

FGM is not a good thing but neither is a belly tuk or a p.enhancement...
The practice of routinely cutting the perineum during hospital deliveries in the United States, episiotomy, has been shown to be the principal risk factor for severe tearing during delivery, which is the injury that it is supposed to prevent. Nonetheless American obstetricians continue to overuse this procedure ten times more often than is called for. Episiotomy is also a major risk factor for infection, loss of sexual pleasure, and incontinence. Women who have been subjected to episiotomies take longer to heal from delivery, even compared to women who have equivalent tears.
Given the completely unscientific, ritual approach obstetricians have to this practice, it illuminates the Western outrage over ritual genital mutilation of girls and women in East Africa, which also has many painful and disabling sequelae. Just as we reach out in solidarity with African feminists to stop genital mutilation in Africa, we need to stop the iatrogenic, unscientific practice of episiotomy in American obstetrics..
Why women attain all power when men worship them sexually.Why do so many women feel threatened by celibacy and restraint in males.
The natural, lawful reasons that sexual indulgence leads all men into sexual perversion, and finally into blood lust. (Sexual excitation by violence.)..........
Just how many TV shows promote the mutilation of the body for the sake of one feeling adiquately 'Sexy' enough in the eyes of others,and thus feeling good in their own flesh.Is this not a consequence of all the different magazines showing off the so called 'Perfect Body'.Let's face it,more and more nations are falling in line with the kind of shows and practices of what is deemed in the West & other developing nations looking to the west,as a RIGHT to tampare with God's creation for the sake of what might be fashionable at the time.We take these practices so foregranted that we even tend to cheer and be glad for a person to have made it through the long agonising wait to be the lucky one who will get the transformation.Shows like 'Sex in the City' ,'Queer as Folk', 'The Swan', 'Extreem Make Over'.etc ..this is just another way in which the opposing culture chooses not to follow the infedel's ways.It's that simple.It is men's own selfobsorbing need to be envied,as to be as close to God's perfection as he can.We are so consumed by the beauty of the flesh that what's on the inside really does'nt matter anymore,or atleats to most.Vanity,Whealth & Power followed by knowledge but not Wisdom...
Celibacy and sexual restraint teachings from the Saints and Divine Masters,
its importance in spiritual development. Sexual self control is the great doorway
to the higher spiritual life, AND to a prosperous material life. There are many secrets in it...
We are so hyopocritical that we forget that maybe,just maybe there's a possibilety that they might be onto something beyond the pleasures of the flesh.A different path from the mortal fleshy bounderies,something that could be acchieved through chestity,another level of orgasmic understanding.The metaphysical reasons that sexual indulgence darkens your personal world, causing your own personal expulsion from The Garden.....
Why women attain all power when men worship them sexually.Why do so many women feel threatened by celibacy and restraint in males.
The natural, lawful reasons that sexual indulgence leads all men into sexual perversion, and finally into blood lust. (Sexual excitation by violence.)..........
The need to quell relativism translates very easily into a justification for interference in other cultures which have values that offend Western concepts of human rights. Until there is evidence of universal values, Western values cannot be proved wrong, and remain available to justify interference in the name of upholding them. In this way calls to social science or cross-cultural study to find universal values are a decoy. In the (eternal) interim period, because there is "no problem" in criticizing (or invading or interfering in) other cultures, relativism, as the manifestation of values different to Western ones, remains to be "quelled," there being no concrete proof that Western values should not be universal. This is the same absence of proof that the Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association took as evidence for the need for respect for other cultures. An absence of proof is perhaps as useful as proof itself: it can be taken as validating either a politics of intervention, or one of respect...
Clitoridectomy or Excision - cutting off, without anesthetic, the clitoris and most of the external genitalia. This is practiced in a broad area from the Red Sea to the Atlantic Coast. The most dangerous operation, Infibulation or Pharaonic Circumcision, is customary in Sudan, Somalia, Northern Kenya, parts of Ethiopia and all along the Red Sea Coasts as well as in West Africa in parts of Mali and adjoining areas. After the clitoris is excised and all external genitalia are carved away, the bleeding raw edges of the large lips are held together by thorns or other fastening devices - until a scar forms to close the entrance to the vagina. The legs of the little girl are tied together for several weeks until the wound heals; a tiny opening is created by inserting a splinter of wood - to allow urination. Thus virginity - which is considered especially important by Moslem men - can be proven before the bride price is paid to the father.... (FGM)
The world is now influenced by materialistic tendencies which make a sensate life the end or object of living. Science is being used to seek out new techniques for mechanical, chemical, and surgical means of thwarting nature's purpose. There are those who seek to completely separate and unlink the sex act from its supreme purpose and consequence of reproduction of the species. They are announcing to the world that humanity is no longer capable of exercising voluntary control over copulation, which is the necessary act leading to the creation of another human being.
It is true that the sex act can, in fact has, become addictive, like alcohol and cigarettes; but by the same reasoning, it is also true that it can be curbed and brought under voluntary control. Man is capable of understanding that he is responsible for his actions; that the sex act is not always the most desirable and socially acceptable means he has at his disposal to express empathy and love for another human being; that it is not always necessary to resort to carnal sensuality. Self-discipline is an inherent quality all of us possess and it is entirely within our power to use it for self-realization.
Humanity must learn that the sex act is a serious matter with profound implications which do not affect just the two persons involved, but also affect the future of the human race. We must learn that copulation is not a toy to be used for entertainment or for lack of something better to do, but that it is a profound and meaningful act. . . .
I see the barbaric and cruel practice of raising animals for slaughter, birth control pills, abortion on demand, murder, war, gas chambers, and atomic annihilation as part of a sequence of events resulting from a denial of the universal principle that life is sacred.
I only advocate temperance. All sex involves a sacrifice to the body. There is a price tag attached.
Whether or not it is worth the price is up to you!

Originally posted by Croat69
Europeans dont care what muslims say. Trust me i know. And the muslims in Europe arent violent or anything. They drink wine and eat ham and prochute. They dont pray 5 times a day hell youd be lucky if they prayed once a day.

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Croat69]

that aint strictly true.
many muslins down south do and some up here do. UK wise i mean.

also lost sailor mabye you might wanna respond to the rest of the UK memebers that are posting with comments on your posts?

[edit on 29-11-2004 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Croat69
Europeans dont care what muslims say. Trust me i know. And the muslims in Europe arent violent or anything. They drink wine and eat ham and prochute. They dont pray 5 times a day hell youd be lucky if they prayed once a day.

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Croat69]

that aint strictly true.
many muslins down south do and some up here do. UK wise i mean.

also lost sailor mabye you might wanna respond to the rest of the UK memebers that are posting with comments on your posts?

[edit on 29-11-2004 by devilwasp]

Maybe the muslims in the u.k. are violent but not the ones in bosnia or albania. My cousin is muslim so i know all this. I hate that just because they are a religion that they are seperated from catholic croatians.