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Originally posted by Croat69
Maybe the muslims in the u.k. are violent but not the ones in bosnia or albania. My cousin is muslim so i know all this. I hate that just because they are a religion that they are seperated from catholic croatians.
Originally posted by devilwasp
Originally posted by Croat69
Maybe the muslims in the u.k. are violent but not the ones in bosnia or albania. My cousin is muslim so i know all this. I hate that just because they are a religion that they are seperated from catholic croatians.
oh sorry...heh was meaning something else i was meaning that they do go to prayer and stuff.
many muslims i know are quite peaceful but yet seem to have a weird kinda strength about them....weird.
yeah seperation by religion is crap. although sometimes its needed, i mean in NI most things are kept in two camps.
Originally posted by Croat69
Maybe the muslims in the u.k. are violent
but not the ones in bosnia or albania. My cousin is muslim so i know all this. I hate that just because they are a religion that they are seperated from catholic croatians.
Originally posted by Croat69
Europeans dont care what muslims say. Trust me i know. And the muslims in Europe arent violent or anything. They drink wine and eat ham and prochute. They dont pray 5 times a day hell youd be lucky if they prayed once a day.[edit on 29-11-2004 by Croat69]
Originally posted by devilwasp
also lost sailor mabye you might wanna respond to the rest of the UK memebers that are posting with comments on your posts?
[edit on 29-11-2004 by devilwasp]
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by LostSailor
The growing muslim population in the Netherlands is threating the liberal freedoms they held so proudly for years!
- and just how are they doing that?
Originally posted by jdster
You might ask Theo Van Gogh the same question. ooops...too late.
Originally posted by Lostsailor
How many more times do I have to repeat myself? He's just asking the same questions over and over again... all of which I've or other ATS members have answered in this thread.
.
The group of muslims in Europe is growing rapidly in several countries, and several studies allready showed that Europe will probably be 99% muslims in 20X0.
Originally posted by LostSailor
How many more times do I have to repeat myself? He's just asking the same questions over and over again... all of which I've or other ATS members have answered in this thread.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by jdster
You might ask Theo Van Gogh the same question. ooops...too late.
- So, this is all just yet more wild generalisations on the basis of a single extremist nutter (or small group of extremist nutters)?
Thankfully we in Europe (at least) tend not to run our countries on the basis of hysterical over-reactions to single terrible incidents.
Tragically there are murders every day, some political. Just because this time the outrageous nutter might be claiming a Muslim religious/political motive does not really make too much odds; no one is going to turn their society upside down on the basis of this.
The crime will be investigated as normal and the perpetrator will be caught eventually and go to trial as with any other criminal.
Every flood begins with a single drop.
Now, please enlighten me about how Muslim immigration has improved the quality of life in Europe (for native Europeans) in the last forty years or so.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
There is not a single credible study that shows any possibility of a 99% Muslim Europe this century.
Originally posted by jdster
Now, please enlighten me about how Muslim immigration has improved the quality of life in Europe (for native Europeans) in the last forty years or so.
Originally posted by jdster
Every flood begins with a single drop.
Now, please enlighten me about how Muslim immigration has improved the quality of life in Europe (for native Europeans) in the last forty years or so.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by jdster
Every flood begins with a single drop.
- Is that it?
That is lame in the extreme, when do you ever stop worrying about anything then - if that truely is your attitude?
Now, please enlighten me about how Muslim immigration has improved the quality of life in Europe (for native Europeans) in the last forty years or so.
- Well one thing it has done is massively reduce the number of blinkered bigots who find difference a 'worry' or a 'threat' for a start.
Every wave of immigration has contributed, no matter how difficult their initial settling may have been.
Besides, we're all immigrants in one form or another.....and the biggest single group to march about the globe taking what they found and warring with whomever they found were the 'native Europeans' (from whom many Americans decend).
By the way how long did you decide on being whatever you were born into before you were born, huh?
Originally posted by jdster
OK, since a pithy comment would not suffice for you, I'll elaborate on "every flood begins with a drop" What I mean is that whether you like it or not, such actions as the recent murder of Theo Van Gogh could very well be seen as a symptom of what will eventually
be a cultural war, i.e. Western freedom vs. Muslim Fundamentalism.
If that does in fact
ever happen and Islam prevails, I seriously doubt that your "difference" will be valued or appreciated.
I imagine that the very existence of something like ATS, for example, would be very unlikely to flourish under an Islamic regime.
I, as a believer in Western
Civilization, (despite its current state of corruption and emasculation, it might still be worth saving) think that a culture as alien as Muslim culture is to the freedoms which YOU enjoy and take for granted is most certainly a just cause for "worry" and can certainly be seen as a "threat".
I do not support the war in Iraq, nor any of our current foreign policy fiascoes and military blunders. I am not against the right of Islamic culture to exist, though I do not think that it has a place in Europe.
Given what we know of places where Islam dominates the culture, what do you think Muslims will EVENTUALLY contribute to European civilization? . Well, I almost let your
evasive answer to my previous post slide...
As a US citizen, I know only too well how destructive immigration tends to be to the
first inhabitants of any part of the world.
That is pretty much a summary of the history
of the Americas.
If a desire to preserve my native culture makes me a "blinkered bigot",
then so be it.
This all makes me wonder how tolerant Muslims would be if thier homelands suddenly saw massive immigration from the historic inhabitants of the UK. would Pub culture and football hooliganism be seen by the natives as "difference"?
By the way, I never had a choice with what I was born into. As soon as I was cognizant,
I knew that someday, I'd be a corpse.
Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Originally posted by jdster
OK, since a pithy comment would not suffice for you, I'll elaborate on "every flood begins with a drop" What I mean is that whether you like it or not, such actions as the recent murder of Theo Van Gogh could very well be seen as a symptom of what will eventually
be a cultural war, i.e. Western freedom vs. Muslim Fundamentalism.
- Tragic as that murder was it is one hell of a leap to infer it was the 'begining' of anything.....and in my view utterly at odds with the facts and rational probabilities.
Not a beginning so much as a symptom. Also, remember the mainfesto so neatly stuck
into the corpse. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but those aren't the sorts of opinions I would want my neighbors to harbor.
If that does in fact
ever happen and Islam prevails, I seriously doubt that your "difference" will be valued or appreciated.
- Yeah I (obviously?) know what you are saying but the likelihood of this is so totally remote as to be unworthy of much serious consideration.
It's (I suppose) a possibility but a possiblity that is just never going to happen and certainly not as things are now or are likely to be in future....
If you had asked me of the likelihood of a major foreign terrorist attack against the US about four years ago, I would have given a similar answer.
....at best Jakko has been able to turn up a projection which indicates that if the current (very high) rate of birth is sustained (and there is no previous precedent for this with immigrant groups coming to Europe post WW2) that a Netherlands Muslim population of around 20% might occur within 45 years!
(of course European birth-rates were utterly different within a similar time scale but it appears only one 'direction' in any of this is being considered and such obvious changes are simply being ignored, right? )
I imagine that the very existence of something like ATS, for example, would be very unlikely to flourish under an Islamic regime.
- I find this sort of 'worry' greatly exaggerated and frankly ridiculous.
see above
There is absolutely no chance - whatsoever - of European 'civilisation' as we know it now being replaced by a fundamentalist Islamic 'civilisation'.
I, as a believer in Western
Civilization, (despite its current state of corruption and emasculation, it might still be worth saving) think that a culture as alien as Muslim culture is to the freedoms which YOU enjoy and take for granted is most certainly a just cause for "worry" and can certainly be seen as a "threat".
- Well I would suggest that for your 'worry' to be in any way justified one would have to have reasonable grounds to believe this might possibly happen.
There is not the slightest possibility of this happening.
Jayzuss, come on, get real.
see above. Whether you admit it to yourself or not, The chances of some of the
things I mentioned are in fact very real possibilities. Remember the bombing of the train station in Spain. Now, remember that the UK has troops in Iraq as well.
I do not support the war in Iraq, nor any of our current foreign policy fiascoes and military blunders. I am not against the right of Islamic culture to exist, though I do not think that it has a place in Europe.
- Well tough luck old son.
Islam does have a place in Europe and it has had it's place for centuries, actually.
Not any that has a major positive influence on the dominant cultures of Europe.
You will also find that the long established Muslim communities in Europe don't quite fit in with the current stereotype either.
Such as in the Balkans, I suppose.
Naturally and unfortunately there are a few individual idiot young Muslim men from here (and the USA, I believe) we have all heard about who have been willing to involve themselves in the fighting going on around the world but to claim this is typical of all Muslims here is a ridiculous exaggeration and patently false.
I agree. But the typical Muslim is certainly not the typical European either.
Given what we know of places where Islam dominates the culture, what do you think Muslims will EVENTUALLY contribute to European civilization? . Well, I almost let your
evasive answer to my previous post slide...
- I am not evading anything. There have been Muslim communities throughout Europe since the year dot. They contribute and get along perfectly well.
What do you mean "EVENTUALLY contribute"?
They have historically contributed to arts and sciences; many many are now simply regular joes like anyone else making a living at 'whatever'.
Also agreed. However, for the most part only in Spain and only until 1492. Meanwhile,
to the east, there was the invasion of Europe by the Ottoman Empire.
You seem taken with the idea that European 'civilisation' will become dominated by Muslim culture.
This is an absurd and baseless proposition.
If I were indigenous to the Americas at the beginning of massive European colonization,
I imagine that I might have held a similar opinion.
As a US citizen, I know only too well how destructive immigration tends to be to the
first inhabitants of any part of the world.
- Yes except this is not a 'first wave' of immigration and in any event the numbers (even at their 'scariest' projections) show Muslims remaining a definite small minority.
That is pretty much a summary of the history
of the Americas.
- The current situation of Muslim people in Europe is nothing like the settling of America. Come on.
Not now, perhaps. Why did the Roman Empire collapse? There were no Romans left, among other things. History does seem to have a way of repeating itself and it's always very ugly.
If a desire to preserve my native culture makes me a "blinkered bigot",
then so be it.
- I doubt your 'culture' is under any kind of actual and real 'threat' either. Our European cities in particular are a wonderful vibrant mixture of peoples and cultures from around the world; there is nothing in the least bit either new or scary about any of this.
I think it is. The paradox of the situation is that the "vibrant mixture" is usually what
turns metropolitan areas into third-world cesspits. Detroit is a very good example
of the joys of diversity right here in the US. I imagine that there would be places in
London, Manchester, etc. where It is dangerous for a native to go.
It's true there are still 'mono-cultural' pockets where this might all seem pretty alien but it isn't when people get to know each other.
I and several of my friends have know several Muslim people personally in my life in the UK and I - and they - have never had reason to say anything negative about any of them; quite the opposite in fact.
In the US, a similar response is usually given by a white person about black people when
someone accuses him of being a racist.
I have not known any Muslims personally, although I have worked with several. There was a language barrier.
This all makes me wonder how tolerant Muslims would be if thier homelands suddenly saw massive immigration from the historic inhabitants of the UK. would Pub culture and football hooliganism be seen by the natives as "difference"?
- Why?
Look back in your history books. It's no surprise it's already happened. You can see how it went.
Sometimes well, usually eventually, not well - as the original populations and their resources were selfishly expolited by a power backed by overwhelming military force, but that too is nothing like what is happening here now.
I know of no predominantly Muslim country where Europeans make (for example) 6.25% of the resident population. (perhaps Spain during the middle ages
and we all know what happened there)
As for the issue of selfish exploitation, It was through
superior technology. If any other culture had possessed technology similar to that
of Europe during colonization, it is certain it would have been used by them in a similar manner, so I think we have to pause and think as we sit before what can very well be seen as the latest fruits of our long history of exploitation. If this seems overreaching,
I think you have to imagine a life in a more "traditional" society. Nasty, brutish, and short. Which leads back to why I posted in the first place. Islamic culture is in
opposition to Western culture.
On the other hand people who travel to different cultures arouind the world usually find the peoples warm and welcoming and generous (obviously war zones excepted).
I've only been to Canada. My car and belongings were very thoroughly searched....
But the foreign travellers I've met in the US have been very civilized.
By the way, I never had a choice with what I was born into. As soon as I was cognizant,
I knew that someday, I'd be a corpse.
- See, there's none of us that different afterall.
Not then, at least....
[edit on 11/30/2004 by jdster]
but not the ones in bosnia or albania. My cousin is muslim so i know all this. I hate that just because they are a religion that they are seperated from catholic croatians.
Originally posted by jdster
Not a beginning so much as a symptom. Also, remember the mainfesto so neatly stuck
into the corpse. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but those aren't the sorts of opinions I would want my neighbors to harbor.
If you had asked me of the likelihood of a major foreign terrorist attack against the US about four years ago, I would have given a similar answer.
see above. Whether you admit it to yourself or not, The chances of some of the
things I mentioned are in fact very real possibilities. Remember the bombing of the train station in Spain. Now, remember that the UK has troops in Iraq as well.
Not any that has a major positive influence on the dominant cultures of Europe.
Such as in the Balkans, I suppose.
I agree. But the typical Muslim is certainly not the typical European either.
Also agreed. However, for the most part only in Spain and only until 1492.
Meanwhile,
to the east, there was the invasion of Europe by the Ottoman Empire.
If I were indigenous to the Americas at the beginning of massive European colonization,
I imagine that I might have held a similar opinion.
Not now, perhaps. Why did the Roman Empire collapse? There were no Romans left, among other things. History does seem to have a way of repeating itself and it's always very ugly.
I think it is. The paradox of the situation is that the "vibrant mixture" is usually what
turns metropolitan areas into third-world cesspits.
Detroit is a very good example
of the joys of diversity right here in the US. I imagine that there would be places in
London, Manchester, etc. where It is dangerous for a native to go.
In the US, a similar response is usually given by a white person about black people when
someone accuses him of being a racist.
I have not known any Muslims personally, although I have worked with several. There was a language barrier.
I know of no predominantly Muslim country where Europeans make (for example) 6.25% of the resident population. (perhaps Spain during the middle ages
and we all know what happened there)
As for the issue of selfish exploitation, It was through
superior technology. If any other culture had possessed technology similar to that
of Europe during colonization, it is certain it would have been used by them in a similar manner, so I think we have to pause and think as we sit before what can very well be seen as the latest fruits of our long history of exploitation. If this seems overreaching,
I think you have to imagine a life in a more "traditional" society. Nasty, brutish, and short. Which leads back to why I posted in the first place. Islamic culture is in
opposition to Western culture.
I've only been to Canada. My car and belongings were very thoroughly searched....
But the foreign travellers I've met in the US have been very civilized.
Not then, at least....
Originally posted by Jakko
In the netherlands, radical imams are constantly trying to find young people they can get to join the Islam.
Young, not so intelligent people with a life full of problems are very vulnarable to the words of such imams, which is why amazingly, in the netherlands there are quite a few dutch people that turned to the Islam.
Besides this there is the simple fact of people from marocco getting their bride out of marocco when they live in the netherlands, which results in all kinds of problems as well.
It's not just about birthrate.
- As I said, tragic as this crime was (regardless of any 'manifesto' at the scene) this still remains a nutter acting either alone or in a very small gang. It doesn't reflect the majority of Muslim opinion or the begining of anything.
We in the UK have loud-mouthed idiots (actually of various 'fundamentalisms') who talk crap too and occassionally there is a disturbance or crime but it does not mean the sky is falling in either.
Nothing of any substance is happening or has happened to alter our 'culture' in any meaningful way and it is certainly not being replaced against the will of the majority here.
(*which is what this thread has all been about*)
- Really?
You see this is one thing I just don't get.
How come many Americans blithely thought they could involve themselves in the politics and business of various countries around the globe - sometimes involving hugely violent, lethal and destructive wars - and not think they would not ever being a possible target of a terrorist attack?
I suspect the truth is many never gave it the slightest thought at all.
I suppose this is the difference with Europe having experience of this kind of thing for decades. It might not have been on the 'one-off' scale of a 9/11 but in the UK alone we lost over 3500 to our terrorist problems in the last 30yrs with indescriminate bombings in civilian areas etc (which many Americans funded and supported by the way).....and many more over the dacades before that and the centuries even.
- Terrible as it undoubtedly was the Madrid bombing was not the first horrific bombing Spain ever experienced ditto regarding any attack on the UK.
Those things (occassional attacks) are already a "very real possibility" and have been for decades.....what is this?
You get one large external terrorist attack on the continental USA and suddenly you think you guys are the only ones ever to experience terrorism?!
And the point still stands....as horrible and unacceptable as those attacks have been and are it still does not herald an Islamic Europe in any possible way whatsoever.
- Well in view of the time here that would take more than a cursory glance to establish.
However, you show me the culture anywhere that has been in place for centuries and had no impact on the wider culture at all, the idea just doesn't stand up, sorry.
- Er, were we not discussing the EU?
'The Balkans' are not members of the EU and the special circumstances there are hardly typical of the Muslim reality within the EU.
By the way....are you saying the 'blame' for what happened in 'the Balkans' was all - or mainly - down to the Muslims there!?
If so you are dead wrong.
- .....and you base this opinion on what?
.
Every Muslim I ever knew here was pretty much like anyone else, they may have had a different religion but so what? Lots of people I know have different religions and particular practices different to me because of them.
What is this 'typical' anyway?
The 'typical European is a mix of all sorts....
.....or, Oh God, are we into talking some kind of ludicrous tedious crap about an imaginary never was and never will be 'white Europe for white people'!?
Should I be suspicious and write the Jewish people I know off because they aren't this mythical 'typical' either; what about my black friends or the couple of Chinese people I know?
The idea is ridiculous.
- So, do you imagine everyone with a Muslim connection left in 1492?! Along with all the inter-marrieds etc etc?
- Again.....and what? Basically people of the same families divided. Some remained Christian and some were forced to become Muslim.
The same people, not different. Europeans not alien.
Even the Ottomans were a European mix......or do you imagine that when the centuries of the various Greek/Turkish wars and all that was going on there was no inter-mixing?
- There is no prospect of such an uncontrolled influx of people into the EU. This is simply a groundless scare story.
Again, there is no reasonable comparison to be drawn between the invasion and colonisation of the USA back then and the moderate Muslim immigration into the EU at preset.
- Yeah yeah yeah. Rome. Greece. and what?
Things change.
On the timescale you have to be talking about you might as well say the USA.
I'm surprised you didn't blame the fall of Rome on a reputed tolerance for homosexuality, that's the other usual excuse cited.
Mind you, I always find it funny how few ever mention that Rome itself at the end had become so corrupt and so grotesquely skewed towards the few of their ultra wealthy that the bulk of the people could care less who ran the show.
Life was already a horrible slog for the many and maybe the new bosss wouldn't be exactly the same as the old boss.....hence Rome collapsed from within as much as without as it's own people refused to adequately defend it.
Why is no one ever interested in that side of the equation, hmmm?
In any event, maybe eventually in a few hundred years - if we continue to make having children the gross expense it is - then you might be right......but not today and certainly not this century or next.
To recap, we are not seeing the begining of European culture being taken over by Islam.
- I do not deny that there are slum areas in our cities. I think (in view of our crime rates....especially continental western Europe's crime rates) that you cannot compare the US with Europe at all in this.
- Very few actually; really.
There are places reputed to be dangerous but from my own experience I know a lot of this to be myth.
I lived in London for many years and regularly went to places reputed to be dangerous and never once had any real 'moments' or even saw any real horrors.
Similarly with Belfast now and on my returns during the troubles.
I think a lot of this is simply that people get to a certain age, they become afraid as they get less capable and start to believe what they had once not believed, maybe I'll begin to change and start remembering certain areas as ultra dangerous as I get older!
I can certainly say that the experience of my brother in New Orleans (5yrs ago) is utterly alien to here.
(the hotel staff - a very expensive reputable hotel - basically told and gave him a 'how many blocks away from the hotel' radius was 'safe' for a given time. After midnight they simply advised him not to go out.) This might have been them trying to make the most out of him except for the people he visited there fully backing the hotel's ideas up.
It was obviously a city with a very major crime problem, particularly at night.
I think the statistics bear this out but US metropolitan crime compared to ours in the UK (and again continental Europe's rates are far better than the UK's generally) is far worse.
Occassionally in certain years in a specific narrow area of crime there might be a better statistic but overall your crime rates are appalling.
- OK, maybe so.
But, firstly there is no such thing as a 'set in stone' culture and secondly this thread is not about comparing the merits of Islamis and western European culture.
.....and my reason for posting still stands.
The idea that European civilisation is set to be replaced by an Islamic civilisation is laughable and completely false.
- Canada!? Wow, it must be you matey!
You must have that look about you!
Originally posted by jdster
I interpreted this thread as relating to the potential threats that Muslim immigration
might pose to countries which have had (until recently) very few Muslims.
In fact, I have always thought that foreign entanglements were potentially dangerous.
I suppose that you are referring to mostly attacks in the UK by the IRA.
Perhaps Irish
immigration is potentially dangerous as well.
No, I never thought we were the only ones to experience terrorism. But I think were
were the first to experience it on such a one-time massive scale.
I never implied that cultures do not affect each other. That is why I asked you to give me
an example of the positive impact that Muslim immigration is having on Europe. (which
you STILL haven't done) Frankly, I have no idea what could serve as such an example, and I imagine that the same holds true for you.
Since you said in a previous post that Muslims have been in Europe for centuries, I
referred to Balkans, where that is a fact.
While I don't blame the Muslim population there
for the region's problems, I would wager that it would be a much more stable place if they weren't there.
If by typical I mean majority (and I do), then I would say that the majority of Europeans are leftist secular humanists who tend to feel a strong sense of guilt for the somewhat checkered pasts of thier respective nations,
so they make themselves feel better and more "tolerant" by espousing the myth of multiculturalism and the importance of diversity,
whereas a typical Muslim is probably somone who has a very strong sense of his personal and (dare I say sometimes ethnic and racial) identity and will do what it takes to protect and preserve those things for posterity.
Oh God, yes we are! And Oh God, yes there was in fact a white Europe for white people.
If you don't believe that, do you believe that there was (and still is) a black Africa for blacks or a yellow China for Chinese?
I imagine your respective rainbow friends would all believe that Israel is the land of the Jews, Africa is the land of Blacks and China is the land of Chinese.
If the economies and civilizations of Europe collapsed, do you really think that if a substantial portion of the white population were to flee to those places, they would be welcomed with open arms by a liberal-minded population ready to embrace "diversity"?
No, but I do think that Islam ceased to have any significant cultural impact on Europe
after that.
I think the operative word is "forced".
Do you really think that all Muslim immigration to Europe is moderate, or will those who probably harbor contempt for an emasculated Europe (even as they reap the benefits of living there) will become emboldened by the native inhabitants failure to give appropriate response to those who dare to take action against the hosts?
As I said, among other things.
The point being that it is never healthy for a civilization to lose its sense of identity. What are we seeing, then?
Precisely my point. They are appalling, and whether we like it or not, there certainly seems to be correlation between urban crime and the degree to which "diversity" has been embraced in the US in the past forty years or so. The more "minority" a US city is, the more dangerous it tends to be for everyone.
No, there certainly is no "set in stone" culture, but I believe that it can be observed
that the more homogenous the populace and the more successful the economy
of any nation, the more socially stable those places tend to be (Japan, for example).
My reason for posting still stands. Islam is in opposition to Western civilizationp
Yes, I make dogs bark and small children cry whenever
they see me....