It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Muslim Extremists Preach Violence in Europe

page: 4
0
<< 1  2  3    5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 04:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by Croat69




Maybe the muslims in the u.k. are violent but not the ones in bosnia or albania. My cousin is muslim so i know all this. I hate that just because they are a religion that they are seperated from catholic croatians.


oh sorry...heh was meaning something else i was meaning that they do go to prayer and stuff.
many muslims i know are quite peaceful but yet seem to have a weird kinda strength about them....weird.
yeah seperation by religion is crap. although sometimes its needed, i mean in NI most things are kept in two camps.




posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 04:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Croat69




Maybe the muslims in the u.k. are violent but not the ones in bosnia or albania. My cousin is muslim so i know all this. I hate that just because they are a religion that they are seperated from catholic croatians.


oh sorry...heh was meaning something else i was meaning that they do go to prayer and stuff.
many muslims i know are quite peaceful but yet seem to have a weird kinda strength about them....weird.
yeah seperation by religion is crap. although sometimes its needed, i mean in NI most things are kept in two camps.


Well as long as your sorry.



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 05:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by Croat69
Maybe the muslims in the u.k. are violent


- Not really.
Some young english lads of asian origin in the north of England have started to fight back if picked on (as they have been for years in some places by run of the mill english yobs and racists).....and as seems inevitable in these things that means on occassion there will be innocent english 'white' lads seemingly attacked for no reason from time to time.

Violence begets violence and retaliation can be a horrible, cruel and indescriminate thing.

This does not mean that the UK has a huge problem with young Muslim lads.
It's just the kind of crap young Brits get themselves into only this time it gets a 'Muslim' tag and not specifically an asian or black immigrant one or the 'wrong' football team one etc etc as it would have done a few years back.

It happens from time to time almost everywhere in Europe.
Idiot boorish young men with too much testosterone not using enough brain, same old same old.


but not the ones in bosnia or albania. My cousin is muslim so i know all this. I hate that just because they are a religion that they are seperated from catholic croatians.


- Really?!
I would have thought things would have been pretty 'raw' out there still what with the war not being so long ago.

The ethnic divide out there always struck me as especially tragic there seeing as historically the Muslim population was by and large exactly the same people as the Christian one with members of the same family being one and some the other just because of a 'forced conversion' long long ago.



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 09:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by Croat69
Europeans dont care what muslims say. Trust me i know. And the muslims in Europe arent violent or anything. They drink wine and eat ham and prochute. They dont pray 5 times a day hell youd be lucky if they prayed once a day.[edit on 29-11-2004 by Croat69]


Funny thing there is most of the Muslims that come to school here in the states love bacon egg and cheese biscuits, smoke cigarettes and love to play quarters......at least the ones I knew. As long as they were not going to loose and hand or their life over it they had fun and did their best to fit in and for the most part did.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 09:05 AM
link   

Originally posted by devilwasp

also lost sailor mabye you might wanna respond to the rest of the UK memebers that are posting with comments on your posts?

[edit on 29-11-2004 by devilwasp]


How many more times do I have to repeat myself? He's just asking the same questions over and over again... all of which I've or other ATS members have answered in this thread.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 09:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by LostSailor
The growing muslim population in the Netherlands is threating the liberal freedoms they held so proudly for years!


- and just how are they doing that?



You might ask Theo Van Gogh the same question. ooops...too late.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:21 AM
link   

Originally posted by jdster
You might ask Theo Van Gogh the same question. ooops...too late.


- So, this is all just yet more wild generalisations on the basis of a single extremist nutter (or small group of extremist nutters)?

Thankfully we in Europe (at least) tend not to run our countries on the basis of hysterical over-reactions to single terrible incidents.

Tragically there are murders every day, some political. Just because this time the outrageous nutter might be claiming a Muslim religious/political motive does not really make too much odds; no one is going to turn their society upside down on the basis of this.

The crime will be investigated as normal and the perpetrator will be caught eventually and go to trial as with any other criminal.


Originally posted by Lostsailor
How many more times do I have to repeat myself? He's just asking the same questions over and over again... all of which I've or other ATS members have answered in this thread.


- Er, because, as anyone can clearly see, these "answers" you claim to have given are not actually answers at all.

There was a comment by Jakko about the supposed Muslim cheering which took place (apparantly) somewhere in the world (yet stock footage is known to have been used at that time by many western media to illustrate this so how can we tell the extent of what went on?).

Jakko also mention (as here) the recent murder of Theo Van Gogh.
No one is denying this happened but to claim that this single incident represents the whole Muslim community in the Netherlands undermining the "way of life" there is absurd.

Lastly it has been mentioned that Muslims tend to be against the current legality of the sex-trade and the less restrictive laws on cannabis use in the Netherlands.

I have recognised that this is true but pointed out that these attitudes are hardly unique to the Muslim community and in any case both of these examples hardly represent the Dutch "way of life".

This also sits along side Jakko's patently absurd claim that

The group of muslims in Europe is growing rapidly in several countries, and several studies allready showed that Europe will probably be 99% muslims in 20X0.
.
There is not a single credible study that shows any possibility of a 99% Muslim Europe this century.

So perhaps you would care to explain how just how this serious "threat" to the Dutch "way of life" is actually working, hmmm.....or is this just yet more non-specific, unthinking and pretty exaggerated anti-Muslim bashing with a load of the usual band-wagon jumping-on?





[edit on 30-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:22 AM
link   

Originally posted by LostSailor

How many more times do I have to repeat myself? He's just asking the same questions over and over again... all of which I've or other ATS members have answered in this thread.

what?
i am saying the OTHER PEOPLE not just him!



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:01 AM
link   

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by jdster
You might ask Theo Van Gogh the same question. ooops...too late.



- So, this is all just yet more wild generalisations on the basis of a single extremist nutter (or small group of extremist nutters)?

Thankfully we in Europe (at least) tend not to run our countries on the basis of hysterical over-reactions to single terrible incidents.

Tragically there are murders every day, some political. Just because this time the outrageous nutter might be claiming a Muslim religious/political motive does not really make too much odds; no one is going to turn their society upside down on the basis of this.

The crime will be investigated as normal and the perpetrator will be caught eventually and go to trial as with any other criminal.


Every flood begins with a single drop.

Now, please enlighten me about how Muslim immigration has improved the quality of life in Europe (for native Europeans) in the last forty years or so.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 11:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

There is not a single credible study that shows any possibility of a 99% Muslim Europe this century.


Indeed no 99%.
20% in 2050 is is credible though, and going from 6.25 to 20 % in just 45 years makes me wonder where we will be in 2090 for example.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 12:35 PM
link   

Originally posted by jdster


Now, please enlighten me about how Muslim immigration has improved the quality of life in Europe (for native Europeans) in the last forty years or so.

it has improved the UK industry after ww2 due to our low baby count and low population.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 01:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by jdster
Every flood begins with a single drop.


- Is that it?
That is lame in the extreme, when do you ever stop worrying about anything then - if that truely is your attitude?


Now, please enlighten me about how Muslim immigration has improved the quality of life in Europe (for native Europeans) in the last forty years or so.


- Well one thing it has done is massively reduce the number of blinkered bigots who find difference a 'worry' or a 'threat' for a start.


Every wave of immigration has contributed, no matter how difficult their initial settling may have been.

Besides, we're all immigrants in one form or another.....and the biggest single group to march about the globe taking what they found and warring with whomever they found were the 'native Europeans' (from whom many Americans decend).

By the way how long did you decide on being whatever you were born into before you were born, huh?



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 05:50 PM
link   

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by jdster
Every flood begins with a single drop.


- Is that it?
That is lame in the extreme, when do you ever stop worrying about anything then - if that truely is your attitude?


Now, please enlighten me about how Muslim immigration has improved the quality of life in Europe (for native Europeans) in the last forty years or so.


- Well one thing it has done is massively reduce the number of blinkered bigots who find difference a 'worry' or a 'threat' for a start.


Every wave of immigration has contributed, no matter how difficult their initial settling may have been.

Besides, we're all immigrants in one form or another.....and the biggest single group to march about the globe taking what they found and warring with whomever they found were the 'native Europeans' (from whom many Americans decend).

By the way how long did you decide on being whatever you were born into before you were born, huh?



OK, since a pithy comment would not suffice for you, I'll elaborate on "every flood begins with a drop" What I mean is that whether you like it or not, such actions as the recent murder of Theo Van Gogh could very well be seen as a symptom of what will eventually
be a cultural war, i.e. Western freedom vs. Muslim Fundamentalism. If that does in fact
ever happen and Islam prevails, I seriously doubt that your "difference" will be valued or appreciated. I imagine that the very existence of something like ATS, for example, would be very unlikely to flourish under an Islamic regime. I, as a believer in Western
Civilization, (despite its current state of corruption and emasculation, it might still be worth saving) think that a culture as alien as Muslim culture is to the freedoms which YOU enjoy and take for granted is most certainly a just cause for "worry" and can certainly be seen as a "threat". I do not support the war in Iraq, nor any of our current foreign policy fiascoes and military blunders. I am not against the right of Islamic culture to exist, though I do not think that it has a place in Europe.

Given what we know of places where Islam dominates the culture, what do you think Muslims will EVENTUALLY contribute to European civilization? . Well, I almost let your
evasive answer to my previous post slide...

As a US citizen, I know only too well how destructive immigration tends to be to the
first inhabitants of any part of the world. That is pretty much a summary of the history
of the Americas. If a desire to preserve my native culture makes me a "blinkered bigot",
then so be it. This all makes me wonder how tolerant Muslims would be if thier homelands suddenly saw massive immigration from the historic inhabitants of the UK. would Pub culture and football hooliganism be seen by the natives as "difference"?


By the way, I never had a choice with what I was born into. As soon as I was cognizant,
I knew that someday, I'd be a corpse.




[edit on 11/30/2004 by jdster]



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 07:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by jdster
OK, since a pithy comment would not suffice for you, I'll elaborate on "every flood begins with a drop" What I mean is that whether you like it or not, such actions as the recent murder of Theo Van Gogh could very well be seen as a symptom of what will eventually
be a cultural war, i.e. Western freedom vs. Muslim Fundamentalism.


- Tragic as that murder was it is one hell of a leap to infer it was the 'begining' of anything.....and in my view utterly at odds with the facts and rational probabilities.


If that does in fact
ever happen and Islam prevails, I seriously doubt that your "difference" will be valued or appreciated.


- Yeah I (obviously?) know what you are saying but the likelihood of this is so totally remote as to be unworthy of much serious consideration.
It's (I suppose) a possibility but a possiblity that is just never going to happen and certainly not as things are now or are likely to be in future....

....at best Jakko has been able to turn up a projection which indicates that if the current (very high) rate of birth is sustained (and there is no previous precedent for this with immigrant groups coming to Europe post WW2) that a Netherlands Muslim population of around 20% might occur within 45 years!

(of course European birth-rates were utterly different within a similar time scale but it appears only one 'direction' in any of this is being considered and such obvious changes are simply being ignored, right?
)


I imagine that the very existence of something like ATS, for example, would be very unlikely to flourish under an Islamic regime.


- I find this sort of 'worry' greatly exaggerated and frankly ridiculous.

There is absolutely no chance - whatsoever - of European 'civilisation' as we know it now being replaced by a fundamentalist Islamic 'civilisation'.


I, as a believer in Western
Civilization, (despite its current state of corruption and emasculation, it might still be worth saving) think that a culture as alien as Muslim culture is to the freedoms which YOU enjoy and take for granted is most certainly a just cause for "worry" and can certainly be seen as a "threat".


- Well I would suggest that for your 'worry' to be in any way justified one would have to have reasonable grounds to believe this might possibly happen.

There is not the slightest possibility of this happening.
Jayzuss, come on, get real.



I do not support the war in Iraq, nor any of our current foreign policy fiascoes and military blunders. I am not against the right of Islamic culture to exist, though I do not think that it has a place in Europe.


- Well tough luck old son.
Islam does have a place in Europe and it has had it's place for centuries, actually.

You will also find that the long established Muslim communities in Europe don't quite fit in with the current stereotype either.

Naturally and unfortunately there are a few individual idiot young Muslim men from here (and the USA, I believe) we have all heard about who have been willing to involve themselves in the fighting going on around the world but to claim this is typical of all Muslims here is a ridiculous exaggeration and patently false.


Given what we know of places where Islam dominates the culture, what do you think Muslims will EVENTUALLY contribute to European civilization? . Well, I almost let your
evasive answer to my previous post slide...


- I am not evading anything. There have been Muslim communities throughout Europe since the year dot. They contribute and get along perfectly well.

What do you mean "EVENTUALLY contribute"?
They have historically contributed to arts and sciences; many many are now simply regular joes like anyone else making a living at 'whatever'.

You seem taken with the idea that European 'civilisation' will become dominated by Muslim culture.
This is an absurd and baseless proposition.


As a US citizen, I know only too well how destructive immigration tends to be to the
first inhabitants of any part of the world.


- Yes except this is not a 'first wave' of immigration and in any event the numbers (even at their 'scariest' projections) show Muslims remaining a definite small minority.


That is pretty much a summary of the history
of the Americas.


- The current situation of Muslim people in Europe is nothing like the settling of America. Come on.



If a desire to preserve my native culture makes me a "blinkered bigot",
then so be it.


- I doubt your 'culture' is under any kind of actual and real 'threat' either. Our European cities in particular are a wonderful vibrant mixture of peoples and cultures from around the world; there is nothing in the least bit either new or scary about any of this.

It's true there are still 'mono-cultural' pockets where this might all seem pretty alien but it isn't when people get to know each other.

I and several of my friends have know several Muslim people personally in my life in the UK and I - and they - have never had reason to say anything negative about any of them; quite the opposite in fact.


This all makes me wonder how tolerant Muslims would be if thier homelands suddenly saw massive immigration from the historic inhabitants of the UK. would Pub culture and football hooliganism be seen by the natives as "difference"?


- Why?
Look back in your history books. It's no surprise it's already happened. You can see how it went.
Sometimes well, usually eventually, not well - as the original populations and their resources were selfishly expolited by a power backed by overwhelming military force, but that too is nothing like what is happening here now.

On the other hand people who individually travel to different cultures around the world usually find the peoples warm, welcoming and generous (obviously war zones excepted).....and surprisingly similar in all the ways that really matter.


By the way, I never had a choice with what I was born into. As soon as I was cognizant,
I knew that someday, I'd be a corpse.


- See, there's none of us that different afterall.








[edit on 30-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 08:59 PM
link   

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by jdster
OK, since a pithy comment would not suffice for you, I'll elaborate on "every flood begins with a drop" What I mean is that whether you like it or not, such actions as the recent murder of Theo Van Gogh could very well be seen as a symptom of what will eventually
be a cultural war, i.e. Western freedom vs. Muslim Fundamentalism.



- Tragic as that murder was it is one hell of a leap to infer it was the 'begining' of anything.....and in my view utterly at odds with the facts and rational probabilities.


Not a beginning so much as a symptom. Also, remember the mainfesto so neatly stuck
into the corpse. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but those aren't the sorts of opinions I would want my neighbors to harbor.


If that does in fact
ever happen and Islam prevails, I seriously doubt that your "difference" will be valued or appreciated.



- Yeah I (obviously?) know what you are saying but the likelihood of this is so totally remote as to be unworthy of much serious consideration.
It's (I suppose) a possibility but a possiblity that is just never going to happen and certainly not as things are now or are likely to be in future....


If you had asked me of the likelihood of a major foreign terrorist attack against the US about four years ago, I would have given a similar answer.

....at best Jakko has been able to turn up a projection which indicates that if the current (very high) rate of birth is sustained (and there is no previous precedent for this with immigrant groups coming to Europe post WW2) that a Netherlands Muslim population of around 20% might occur within 45 years!

(of course European birth-rates were utterly different within a similar time scale but it appears only one 'direction' in any of this is being considered and such obvious changes are simply being ignored, right?
)


I imagine that the very existence of something like ATS, for example, would be very unlikely to flourish under an Islamic regime.



- I find this sort of 'worry' greatly exaggerated and frankly ridiculous.


see above

There is absolutely no chance - whatsoever - of European 'civilisation' as we know it now being replaced by a fundamentalist Islamic 'civilisation'.


I, as a believer in Western
Civilization, (despite its current state of corruption and emasculation, it might still be worth saving) think that a culture as alien as Muslim culture is to the freedoms which YOU enjoy and take for granted is most certainly a just cause for "worry" and can certainly be seen as a "threat".



- Well I would suggest that for your 'worry' to be in any way justified one would have to have reasonable grounds to believe this might possibly happen.



There is not the slightest possibility of this happening.
Jayzuss, come on, get real.


see above. Whether you admit it to yourself or not, The chances of some of the
things I mentioned are in fact very real possibilities. Remember the bombing of the train station in Spain. Now, remember that the UK has troops in Iraq as well.


I do not support the war in Iraq, nor any of our current foreign policy fiascoes and military blunders. I am not against the right of Islamic culture to exist, though I do not think that it has a place in Europe.



- Well tough luck old son.
Islam does have a place in Europe and it has had it's place for centuries, actually.


Not any that has a major positive influence on the dominant cultures of Europe.


You will also find that the long established Muslim communities in Europe don't quite fit in with the current stereotype either.


Such as in the Balkans, I suppose.


Naturally and unfortunately there are a few individual idiot young Muslim men from here (and the USA, I believe) we have all heard about who have been willing to involve themselves in the fighting going on around the world but to claim this is typical of all Muslims here is a ridiculous exaggeration and patently false.


I agree. But the typical Muslim is certainly not the typical European either.


Given what we know of places where Islam dominates the culture, what do you think Muslims will EVENTUALLY contribute to European civilization? . Well, I almost let your
evasive answer to my previous post slide...


- I am not evading anything. There have been Muslim communities throughout Europe since the year dot. They contribute and get along perfectly well.


What do you mean "EVENTUALLY contribute"?
They have historically contributed to arts and sciences; many many are now simply regular joes like anyone else making a living at 'whatever'.


Also agreed. However, for the most part only in Spain and only until 1492. Meanwhile,
to the east, there was the invasion of Europe by the Ottoman Empire.


You seem taken with the idea that European 'civilisation' will become dominated by Muslim culture.
This is an absurd and baseless proposition.


If I were indigenous to the Americas at the beginning of massive European colonization,
I imagine that I might have held a similar opinion.


As a US citizen, I know only too well how destructive immigration tends to be to the
first inhabitants of any part of the world.


- Yes except this is not a 'first wave' of immigration and in any event the numbers (even at their 'scariest' projections) show Muslims remaining a definite small minority.


That is pretty much a summary of the history
of the Americas.



- The current situation of Muslim people in Europe is nothing like the settling of America. Come on.


Not now, perhaps. Why did the Roman Empire collapse? There were no Romans left, among other things. History does seem to have a way of repeating itself and it's always very ugly.


If a desire to preserve my native culture makes me a "blinkered bigot",
then so be it.



- I doubt your 'culture' is under any kind of actual and real 'threat' either. Our European cities in particular are a wonderful vibrant mixture of peoples and cultures from around the world; there is nothing in the least bit either new or scary about any of this.


I think it is. The paradox of the situation is that the "vibrant mixture" is usually what
turns metropolitan areas into third-world cesspits. Detroit is a very good example
of the joys of diversity right here in the US. I imagine that there would be places in
London, Manchester, etc. where It is dangerous for a native to go.


It's true there are still 'mono-cultural' pockets where this might all seem pretty alien but it isn't when people get to know each other.

I and several of my friends have know several Muslim people personally in my life in the UK and I - and they - have never had reason to say anything negative about any of them; quite the opposite in fact.


In the US, a similar response is usually given by a white person about black people when
someone accuses him of being a racist.

I have not known any Muslims personally, although I have worked with several. There was a language barrier.


This all makes me wonder how tolerant Muslims would be if thier homelands suddenly saw massive immigration from the historic inhabitants of the UK. would Pub culture and football hooliganism be seen by the natives as "difference"?



- Why?
Look back in your history books. It's no surprise it's already happened. You can see how it went.
Sometimes well, usually eventually, not well - as the original populations and their resources were selfishly expolited by a power backed by overwhelming military force, but that too is nothing like what is happening here now.


I know of no predominantly Muslim country where Europeans make (for example) 6.25% of the resident population. (perhaps Spain during the middle ages
and we all know what happened there)

As for the issue of selfish exploitation, It was through
superior technology. If any other culture had possessed technology similar to that
of Europe during colonization, it is certain it would have been used by them in a similar manner, so I think we have to pause and think as we sit before what can very well be seen as the latest fruits of our long history of exploitation. If this seems overreaching,
I think you have to imagine a life in a more "traditional" society. Nasty, brutish, and short. Which leads back to why I posted in the first place. Islamic culture is in
opposition to Western culture.


On the other hand people who travel to different cultures arouind the world usually find the peoples warm and welcoming and generous (obviously war zones excepted).


I've only been to Canada. My car and belongings were very thoroughly searched....

But the foreign travellers I've met in the US have been very civilized.


By the way, I never had a choice with what I was born into. As soon as I was cognizant,
I knew that someday, I'd be a corpse.



- See, there's none of us that different afterall.


Not then, at least....






[edit on 11/30/2004 by jdster]



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 10:26 PM
link   

but not the ones in bosnia or albania. My cousin is muslim so i know all this. I hate that just because they are a religion that they are seperated from catholic croatians.


- Really?!
I would have thought things would have been pretty 'raw' out there still what with the war not being so long ago.

The ethnic divide out there always struck me as especially tragic there seeing as historically the Muslim population was by and large exactly the same people as the Christian one with members of the same family being one and some the other just because of a 'forced conversion' long long ago.

Actually The Muslim population is a minority among Croats. Catholisism has always been the majority since 700 when we converted. Your right we were forced to convert when the turks invaded but its not like they are religious finatics. My cousin Dino his father is muslim and he Drinks alcohol and eats Ham and prochute. Befor the war he lived in Bosnia. I forget the name of the town but I know that there is a bridge and on one side is the muslim religion and the other is the catholic religion. Its very rare to see a women all covered in cloths, we`d rather they didnt where the cloths
, and evan though it was horrible what the serbs did but they dont jihad. Hell during the war it was outlawed to sell weapons to croats. Its not like the rest of the muslim world evan cared, why doesnt Bin Laden attack the serbs they killed muslims america didnt.Its because he doesnt care because the rest of the muslim communtiy doesnt think they are truely muslim. I hope that one day Bosnia will once again be reunited with the rest of croatia but until the U.N. recognizes that Religoin shouldnt seperate ethnicity I dont see that ever happening, which makes me sad because my grandfather was born in bosnia. Anyway the croatian muslims are just like the croatian catholics they dont want war or violence and just want to live their lives peacefully, but until the serbs get out of Bosnia I think they will always be afraid. Hell Im afraid theyll attack again some day, I`v seen the bullet holes the pictures of concentraition camps, the look on my cousins dads face. Hes still pretty shooken up about it you can tell just by looking at him. So remember when you talk about the muslims in Europe leave out the Croatian muslims because the are not violent they are croatian first and muslim second.

[edit on 30-11-2004 by Croat69]



posted on Dec, 1 2004 @ 04:25 AM
link   
jdster, you are talking about birthrate being the one reason the muslim population would grow to 20 % in the next 45 years.
It is however not only birthrate that creates the growth.

In the netherlands, radical imams are constantly trying to find young people they can get to join the Islam.
Young, not so intelligent people with a life full of problems are very vulnarable to the words of such imams, which is why amazingly, in the netherlands there are quite a few dutch people that turned to the Islam.

Besides this there is the simple fact of people from marocco getting their bride out of marocco when they live in the netherlands, which results in all kinds of problems as well.
It's not just about birthrate.



posted on Dec, 1 2004 @ 09:28 AM
link   

Originally posted by jdster
Not a beginning so much as a symptom. Also, remember the mainfesto so neatly stuck
into the corpse. I don't know what it's like in the UK, but those aren't the sorts of opinions I would want my neighbors to harbor.


- As I said, tragic as this crime was (regardless of any 'manifesto' at the scene) this still remains a nutter acting either alone or in a very small gang. It doesn't reflect the majority of Muslim opinion or the begining of anything.

We in the UK have loud-mouthed idiots (actually of various 'fundamentalisms') who talk crap too and occassionally there is a disturbance or crime but it does not mean the sky is falling in either.

Nothing of any substance is happening or has happened to alter our 'culture' in any meaningful way and it is certainly not being replaced against the will of the majority here.

(*which is what this thread has all been about*)


If you had asked me of the likelihood of a major foreign terrorist attack against the US about four years ago, I would have given a similar answer.


- Really?

You see this is one thing I just don't get.
How come many Americans blithely thought they could involve themselves in the politics and business of various countries around the globe - sometimes involving hugely violent, lethal and destructive wars - and not think they would not ever being a possible target of a terrorist attack?

I suspect the truth is many never gave it the slightest thought at all.

I suppose this is the difference with Europe having experience of this kind of thing for decades. It might not have been on the 'one-off' scale of a 9/11 but in the UK alone we lost over 3500 to our terrorist problems in the last 30yrs with indescriminate bombings in civilian areas etc (which many Americans funded and supported by the way).....and many more over the dacades before that and the centuries even.


see above. Whether you admit it to yourself or not, The chances of some of the
things I mentioned are in fact very real possibilities. Remember the bombing of the train station in Spain. Now, remember that the UK has troops in Iraq as well.


- Terrible as it undoubtedly was the Madrid bombing was not the first horrific bombing Spain ever experienced ditto regarding any attack on the UK.

Those things (occassional attacks) are already a "very real possibility" and have been for decades.....what is this?
You get one large external terrorist attack on the continental USA and suddenly you think you guys are the only ones ever to experience terrorism?!

And the point still stands....as horrible and unacceptable as those attacks have been and are it still does not herald an Islamic Europe in any possible way whatsoever.


Not any that has a major positive influence on the dominant cultures of Europe.


- Well in view of the time here that would take more than a cursory glance to establish.
However, you show me the culture anywhere that has been in place for centuries and had no impact on the wider culture at all, the idea just doesn't stand up, sorry.


Such as in the Balkans, I suppose.


- Er, were we not discussing the EU?
'The Balkans' are not members of the EU and the special circumstances there are hardly typical of the Muslim reality within the EU.

By the way....are you saying the 'blame' for what happened in 'the Balkans' was all - or mainly - down to the Muslims there!?
If so you are dead wrong.


I agree. But the typical Muslim is certainly not the typical European either.


- .....and you base this opinion on what?

Every Muslim I ever knew here was pretty much like anyone else, they may have had a different religion but so what? Lots of people I know have different religions and particular practices different to me because of them.

What is this 'typical' anyway?
The 'typical European is a mix of all sorts.....

.....or, Oh God, are we into talking some kind of ludicrous tedious crap about an imaginary never was and never will be 'white Europe for white people'!?


Should I be suspicious and write the Jewish people I know off because they aren't this mythical 'typical' either; what about my black friends or the couple of Chinese people I know?

The idea is ridiculous.


Also agreed. However, for the most part only in Spain and only until 1492.


- So, do you imagine everyone with a Muslim connection left in 1492?! Along with all the inter-marrieds etc etc?


Meanwhile,
to the east, there was the invasion of Europe by the Ottoman Empire.


- Again.....and what? Basically people of the same families divided. Some remained Christian and some were forced to become Muslim.
The same people, not different. Europeans not alien.

Even the Ottomans were a European mix......or do you imagine that when the centuries of the various Greek/Turkish wars and all that was going on there was no inter-mixing?


If I were indigenous to the Americas at the beginning of massive European colonization,
I imagine that I might have held a similar opinion.


- There is no prospect of such an uncontrolled influx of people into the EU. This is simply a groundless scare story.

Again, there is no reasonable comparison to be drawn between the invasion and colonisation of the USA back then and the moderate Muslim immigration into the EU at preset.


Not now, perhaps. Why did the Roman Empire collapse? There were no Romans left, among other things. History does seem to have a way of repeating itself and it's always very ugly.


- Yeah yeah yeah. Rome. Greece. and what?
Things change.
On the timescale you have to be talking about you might as well say the USA.

I'm surprised you didn't blame the fall of Rome on a reputed tolerance for homosexuality, that's the other usual excuse cited.

Mind you, I always find it funny how few ever mention that Rome itself at the end had become so corrupt and so grotesquely skewed towards the few of their ultra wealthy that the bulk of the people could care less who ran the show.
Life was already a horrible slog for the many and maybe the new bosss wouldn't be exactly the same as the old boss.....hence Rome collapsed from within as much as without as it's own people refused to adequately defend it.
Why is no one ever interested in that side of the equation, hmmm?

In any event, maybe eventually in a few hundred years - if we continue to make having children the gross expense it is - then you might be right......but not today and certainly not this century or next.

To recap, we are not seeing the begining of European culture being taken over by Islam.


I think it is. The paradox of the situation is that the "vibrant mixture" is usually what
turns metropolitan areas into third-world cesspits.


- I do not deny that there are slum areas in our cities. I think (in view of our crime rates....especially continental western Europe's crime rates) that you cannot compare the US with Europe at all in this.


Detroit is a very good example
of the joys of diversity right here in the US. I imagine that there would be places in
London, Manchester, etc. where It is dangerous for a native to go.


- Very few actually; really.
There are places reputed to be dangerous but from my own experience I know a lot of this to be myth.
I lived in London for many years and regularly went to places reputed to be dangerous and never once had any real 'moments' or even saw any real horrors.

Similarly with Belfast now and on my returns during the troubles.

I think a lot of this is simply that people get to a certain age, they become afraid as they get less capable and start to believe what they had once not believed, maybe I'll begin to change and start remembering certain areas as ultra dangerous as I get older!


I can certainly say that the experience of my brother in New Orleans (5yrs ago) is utterly alien to here.
(the hotel staff - a very expensive reputable hotel - basically told and gave him a 'how many blocks away from the hotel' radius was 'safe' for a given time. After midnight they simply advised him not to go out.) This might have been them trying to make the most out of him except for the people he visited there fully backing the hotel's ideas up.
It was obviously a city with a very major crime problem, particularly at night.

I think the statistics bear this out but US metropolitan crime compared to ours in the UK (and again continental Europe's rates are far better than the UK's generally) is far worse.

Occassionally in certain years in a specific narrow area of crime there might be a better statistic but overall your crime rates are appalling.


In the US, a similar response is usually given by a white person about black people when
someone accuses him of being a racist.

I have not known any Muslims personally, although I have worked with several. There was a language barrier.


- I think you'll find the joke is either " I'm no racist but......" or "Many of my friends are (insert the name of whichever grouping you're about to insult with some dumb comment)...."

Pity you couldn't talk to your Muslim colleagues, if they are anything like the people I knew, one hates to generalise but (
) they were a nice bunch of people, my experience was of guys very funny, very bright and thoughtful and women that were shy but when you got to know them forthright, funny, quick and sharp as a tack.


I know of no predominantly Muslim country where Europeans make (for example) 6.25% of the resident population. (perhaps Spain during the middle ages
and we all know what happened there)

As for the issue of selfish exploitation, It was through
superior technology. If any other culture had possessed technology similar to that
of Europe during colonization, it is certain it would have been used by them in a similar manner, so I think we have to pause and think as we sit before what can very well be seen as the latest fruits of our long history of exploitation. If this seems overreaching,
I think you have to imagine a life in a more "traditional" society. Nasty, brutish, and short. Which leads back to why I posted in the first place. Islamic culture is in
opposition to Western culture.


- OK, maybe so.
But, firstly there is no such thing as a 'set in stone' culture and secondly this thread is not about comparing the merits of Islamis and western European culture.

.....and my reason for posting still stands.
The idea that European civilisation is set to be replaced by an Islamic civilisation is laughable and completely false.


I've only been to Canada. My car and belongings were very thoroughly searched....


- Canada!? Wow, it must be you matey!
You must have that look about you!



But the foreign travellers I've met in the US have been very civilized.


- Well exactly.


Not then, at least....


- indeed.


Originally posted by Jakko
In the netherlands, radical imams are constantly trying to find young people they can get to join the Islam.


- What you mean their religion is like any other religion? It's trying to attract new members and grow?!
Wow.


Young, not so intelligent people with a life full of problems are very vulnarable to the words of such imams, which is why amazingly, in the netherlands there are quite a few dutch people that turned to the Islam.


- Oh come on Jakko. You can't write the people you disagree with off as the mentally sub-normal.

In any case this (preying on the vulnerable) sounds exactly the same as how the (far more numerous and growing rapidly too so they claim) fundamentalist evangelical 'Christians' go about their 'recruitment' too.....I can't say I like that too but I don't find it very scary either.

They are minorities and will remain so.


Besides this there is the simple fact of people from marocco getting their bride out of marocco when they live in the netherlands, which results in all kinds of problems as well.
It's not just about birthrate.


- Jakko if you really think Europe is about to turn Islamic because a few people decide to adopt the Muslim religion or some brides are brought into the country I suggest you take a long lie down and try to relax.

These are all very peripheral to the issue; the substance of it lies within birth rates and immigration policy.

Neither of which point towards anything other than a Europe pretty much like the one we have now for a long long time to come.

The Muslim birth rate will moderate (as it has for every other ethnoic group that ever came to Europe) as the people assimilate and immigrattion policy will tighten to asuage the fears of people like yourself.

Stay calm and rational.


[edit on 1-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Dec, 1 2004 @ 03:29 PM
link   

- As I said, tragic as this crime was (regardless of any 'manifesto' at the scene) this still remains a nutter acting either alone or in a very small gang. It doesn't reflect the majority of Muslim opinion or the begining of anything.

We in the UK have loud-mouthed idiots (actually of various 'fundamentalisms') who talk crap too and occassionally there is a disturbance or crime but it does not mean the sky is falling in either.

Nothing of any substance is happening or has happened to alter our 'culture' in any meaningful way and it is certainly not being replaced against the will of the majority here.

(*which is what this thread has all been about*)


I interpreted this thread as relating to the potential threats that Muslim immigration
might pose to countries which have had (until recently) very few Muslims.



- Really?

You see this is one thing I just don't get.
How come many Americans blithely thought they could involve themselves in the politics and business of various countries around the globe - sometimes involving hugely violent, lethal and destructive wars - and not think they would not ever being a possible target of a terrorist attack?

I suspect the truth is many never gave it the slightest thought at all.

I suppose this is the difference with Europe having experience of this kind of thing for decades. It might not have been on the 'one-off' scale of a 9/11 but in the UK alone we lost over 3500 to our terrorist problems in the last 30yrs with indescriminate bombings in civilian areas etc (which many Americans funded and supported by the way).....and many more over the dacades before that and the centuries even.


In fact, I have always thought that foreign entanglements were potentially dangerous.
I suppose that you are referring to mostly attacks in the UK by the IRA. Perhaps Irish
immigration is potentially dangerous as well. Whatever the case, it seems that to a terrorist, there is no such thing as an "indiscriminate" attack.


- Terrible as it undoubtedly was the Madrid bombing was not the first horrific bombing Spain ever experienced ditto regarding any attack on the UK.

Those things (occassional attacks) are already a "very real possibility" and have been for decades.....what is this?
You get one large external terrorist attack on the continental USA and suddenly you think you guys are the only ones ever to experience terrorism?!

And the point still stands....as horrible and unacceptable as those attacks have been and are it still does not herald an Islamic Europe in any possible way whatsoever.


No, I never thought we were the only ones to experience terrorism. But I think were
were the first to experience it on such a one-time massive scale.


- Well in view of the time here that would take more than a cursory glance to establish.
However, you show me the culture anywhere that has been in place for centuries and had no impact on the wider culture at all, the idea just doesn't stand up, sorry.


I never implied that cultures do not affect each other. That is why I asked you to give me
an example of the positive impact that Muslim immigration is having on Europe. (which
you STILL haven't done) Frankly, I have no idea what could serve as such an example, and I imagine that the same holds true for you.




- Er, were we not discussing the EU?
'The Balkans' are not members of the EU and the special circumstances there are hardly typical of the Muslim reality within the EU.

By the way....are you saying the 'blame' for what happened in 'the Balkans' was all - or mainly - down to the Muslims there!?
If so you are dead wrong.


Since you said in a previous post that Muslims have been in Europe for centuries, I
referred to Balkans, where that is a fact. While I don't blame the Muslim population there
for the region's problems, I would wager that it would be a much more stable place if they weren't there.


- .....and you base this opinion on what?


If by typical I mean majority (and I do), then I would say that the majority of Europeans are leftist secular humanists who tend to feel a strong sense of guilt for the somewhat checkered pasts of thier respective nations, so they make themselves feel better and more "tolerant" by espousing the myth of multiculturalism and the importance of diversity, whereas a typical Muslim is probably somone who has a very strong sense of his personal and (dare I say sometimes ethnic and racial) identity and will do what it takes to protect and preserve those things for posterity.





Every Muslim I ever knew here was pretty much like anyone else, they may have had a different religion but so what? Lots of people I know have different religions and particular practices different to me because of them.

What is this 'typical' anyway?
The 'typical European is a mix of all sorts....
.

see above.


.....or, Oh God, are we into talking some kind of ludicrous tedious crap about an imaginary never was and never will be 'white Europe for white people'!?


Should I be suspicious and write the Jewish people I know off because they aren't this mythical 'typical' either; what about my black friends or the couple of Chinese people I know?

The idea is ridiculous.


Oh God, yes we are! And Oh God, yes there was in fact a white Europe for white people. If you don't believe that, do you believe that there was (and still is) a black Africa for blacks or a yellow China for Chinese? I imagine your respective rainbow friends would all believe that Israel is the land of the Jews, Africa is the land of Blacks and China is the land of Chinese. If the economies and civilizations of Europe collapsed, do you really think that if a substantial portion of the white population were to flee to those places, they would be welcomed with open arms by a liberal-minded population ready to embrace "diversity"?



- So, do you imagine everyone with a Muslim connection left in 1492?! Along with all the inter-marrieds etc etc?


No, but I do think that Islam ceased to have any significant cultural impact on Europe
after that.



- Again.....and what? Basically people of the same families divided. Some remained Christian and some were forced to become Muslim.
The same people, not different. Europeans not alien.

Even the Ottomans were a European mix......or do you imagine that when the centuries of the various Greek/Turkish wars and all that was going on there was no inter-mixing?


I think the operative word is "forced".



- There is no prospect of such an uncontrolled influx of people into the EU. This is simply a groundless scare story.

Again, there is no reasonable comparison to be drawn between the invasion and colonisation of the USA back then and the moderate Muslim immigration into the EU at preset.


Do you really think that all Muslim immigration to Europe is moderate, or will those who probably harbor contempt for an emasculated Europe (even as they reap the benefits of living there) will become emboldened by the native inhabitants failure to give appropriate response to those who dare to take action against the hosts?



- Yeah yeah yeah. Rome. Greece. and what?
Things change.
On the timescale you have to be talking about you might as well say the USA.

I'm surprised you didn't blame the fall of Rome on a reputed tolerance for homosexuality, that's the other usual excuse cited.

Mind you, I always find it funny how few ever mention that Rome itself at the end had become so corrupt and so grotesquely skewed towards the few of their ultra wealthy that the bulk of the people could care less who ran the show.
Life was already a horrible slog for the many and maybe the new bosss wouldn't be exactly the same as the old boss.....hence Rome collapsed from within as much as without as it's own people refused to adequately defend it.
Why is no one ever interested in that side of the equation, hmmm?

In any event, maybe eventually in a few hundred years - if we continue to make having children the gross expense it is - then you might be right......but not today and certainly not this century or next.

To recap, we are not seeing the begining of European culture being taken over by Islam.


As I said, among other things. The point being that it is never healthy for a civilization to lose its sense of identity. What are we seeing, then?



- I do not deny that there are slum areas in our cities. I think (in view of our crime rates....especially continental western Europe's crime rates) that you cannot compare the US with Europe at all in this.

- Very few actually; really.
There are places reputed to be dangerous but from my own experience I know a lot of this to be myth.
I lived in London for many years and regularly went to places reputed to be dangerous and never once had any real 'moments' or even saw any real horrors.

Similarly with Belfast now and on my returns during the troubles.

I think a lot of this is simply that people get to a certain age, they become afraid as they get less capable and start to believe what they had once not believed, maybe I'll begin to change and start remembering certain areas as ultra dangerous as I get older!


I can certainly say that the experience of my brother in New Orleans (5yrs ago) is utterly alien to here.
(the hotel staff - a very expensive reputable hotel - basically told and gave him a 'how many blocks away from the hotel' radius was 'safe' for a given time. After midnight they simply advised him not to go out.) This might have been them trying to make the most out of him except for the people he visited there fully backing the hotel's ideas up.
It was obviously a city with a very major crime problem, particularly at night.

I think the statistics bear this out but US metropolitan crime compared to ours in the UK (and again continental Europe's rates are far better than the UK's generally) is far worse.

Occassionally in certain years in a specific narrow area of crime there might be a better statistic but overall your crime rates are appalling.


Precisely my point. They are appalling, and whether we like it or not, there certainly seems to be correlation between urban crime and the degree to which "diversity" has been embraced in the US in the past forty years or so. The more "minority" a US city is, the more dangerous it tends to be for everyone.




- OK, maybe so.
But, firstly there is no such thing as a 'set in stone' culture and secondly this thread is not about comparing the merits of Islamis and western European culture.

.....and my reason for posting still stands.
The idea that European civilisation is set to be replaced by an Islamic civilisation is laughable and completely false.


No, there certainly is no "set in stone" culture, but I believe that it can be observed
that the more homogenous the populace and the more successful the economy
of any nation, the more socially stable those places tend to be (Japan, for example).

My reason for posting still stands. Islam is in opposition to Western civilization




- Canada!? Wow, it must be you matey!
You must have that look about you!


Yes, I make dogs bark and small children cry whenever
they see me....





[edit on 12/1/2004 by jdster]



posted on Dec, 1 2004 @ 06:18 PM
link   

Originally posted by jdster
I interpreted this thread as relating to the potential threats that Muslim immigration
might pose to countries which have had (until recently) very few Muslims.


- We shal have to agree to disagree.

I see no rational reason to believe European culture or civilisation is under any kind of actual threat whatsoever.



In fact, I have always thought that foreign entanglements were potentially dangerous.
I suppose that you are referring to mostly attacks in the UK by the IRA.


- The IRA were the most known group but Europe has had more than a few throughout the continent at various times.


Perhaps Irish
immigration is potentially dangerous as well.


- There was a time when English people were peddled that stupidity (about Irish, Scot or Welsh for that matter).
Thankfully we have (well, most of us) moved far away from such retarded notions.


No, I never thought we were the only ones to experience terrorism. But I think were
were the first to experience it on such a one-time massive scale.


- I am not going to minimise the tragedy of 9/11.
I am simply saying though that I consider the UK and Ireland's loss of 3500+ deaths in our problems a 'greater' loss than the approx 2800 poor souls lost then.


I never implied that cultures do not affect each other. That is why I asked you to give me
an example of the positive impact that Muslim immigration is having on Europe. (which
you STILL haven't done) Frankly, I have no idea what could serve as such an example, and I imagine that the same holds true for you.


- I suggest you go and google 'muslim influences on europe' or some such; those influences are there whether you accept them or not.


Since you said in a previous post that Muslims have been in Europe for centuries, I
referred to Balkans, where that is a fact.


- No this thread was all about the EU and whether European culture is being over-thrown thanks to Muslim immigration and Muslims already here (or some similar alarmist tosh).


While I don't blame the Muslim population there
for the region's problems, I would wager that it would be a much more stable place if they weren't there.


- They had a right to defend themselves from genocidal attacks upon them.


If by typical I mean majority (and I do), then I would say that the majority of Europeans are leftist secular humanists who tend to feel a strong sense of guilt for the somewhat checkered pasts of thier respective nations,


- LMAO.

Mate you want to learn about what people are like here cos that is just so far of the mark it is funny.

People really do not think in those terms.


so they make themselves feel better and more "tolerant" by espousing the myth of multiculturalism and the importance of diversity,


- No.
The vast majority of us I would suggest simply realise that under it all we are much the same and all deserve the fair shake we would all want for ourselves.


whereas a typical Muslim is probably somone who has a very strong sense of his personal and (dare I say sometimes ethnic and racial) identity and will do what it takes to protect and preserve those things for posterity.


- There is no doubt truth in that but the idea that all Muslims are sympathetic to the ' Sayyid Qutb' version of aggressive political Islam is simply nonsense, even if that seems to be todays western 'orthodoxy'.


Oh God, yes we are! And Oh God, yes there was in fact a white Europe for white people.


- Oh Jayzuss.

Look mate there never was an 'all white Europe'. It is a myth. Black people and others from all over the globe (with, maybe, the exception of some - very - far eastern peoples) have been in Europe as early as records began.


If you don't believe that, do you believe that there was (and still is) a black Africa for blacks or a yellow China for Chinese?


- Africa is mainly populated by black people and China by Chinese, what of it?


I imagine your respective rainbow friends would all believe that Israel is the land of the Jews, Africa is the land of Blacks and China is the land of Chinese.


- No. Africa is a land with a mostly black population, China one with mostly Chinese and Israel mainly Jewish people.....and what?

They are not "the land of" at all.
People have migrated all over the globe at various times ever since we came to be......and few more so than those of European descent in recent centuries.


If the economies and civilizations of Europe collapsed, do you really think that if a substantial portion of the white population were to flee to those places, they would be welcomed with open arms by a liberal-minded population ready to embrace "diversity"?


- In the light of the way we have collectively treated these people for so long probably not. Hard lives breed hard attitudes.

Maybe we shall all find out as the ravages of global climate disruption impact more and more.......mass 1st world migration, won't that be an irony!

I wonder how long you'll hold your "land of" ideas then?


No, but I do think that Islam ceased to have any significant cultural impact on Europe
after that.


- We shall have to agree to disagree on that. There mere being hwere in my opinion guarantees an infuence, you seem not to agree......that kind of writes off everyone's small influences though doesn't it? If you will only accept large scale obvious influences I mean. Sorry I can't agree with that.


I think the operative word is "forced".


- No. In view of what this thread is about and the notion of an alien 'subversion' I'd say the operative phrase was 'Same people, not alien'.


Do you really think that all Muslim immigration to Europe is moderate, or will those who probably harbor contempt for an emasculated Europe (even as they reap the benefits of living there) will become emboldened by the native inhabitants failure to give appropriate response to those who dare to take action against the hosts?


- Er, actually I meant moderate as in moderate numbers coming to live here.

I have no doubt there will be some fiery loons accompanying those simply trying to make a decent and honest living for themselves and theirs but as is the track record with this kind of thing they will be a tiny minority who will most likely fade away as the new people assimilate.

That kind of scare story goes out with every wave of immigration, it simply isn't true.


As I said, among other things.


-
I knew you wouldn't disappoint!


The point being that it is never healthy for a civilization to lose its sense of identity. What are we seeing, then?


- We are seeing what we should be seeing. A very healthy, dynamic, confident and evolving civilisation.

Not a scare story.


Precisely my point. They are appalling, and whether we like it or not, there certainly seems to be correlation between urban crime and the degree to which "diversity" has been embraced in the US in the past forty years or so. The more "minority" a US city is, the more dangerous it tends to be for everyone.


- I suggest that is your (American) problem.
We in Europe seem to be able to do this 'diversity' quite well without massive crime problems.
As I said it is not problem free - anywhere - but, overall, we do one hell of a lot better than you do in the US.


No, there certainly is no "set in stone" culture, but I believe that it can be observed
that the more homogenous the populace and the more successful the economy
of any nation, the more socially stable those places tend to be (Japan, for example).


- Japan? You must be kidding.
Japan is an example of a mono-culture that suffered unbelievably because of the idiocy that mono-culture 'bred'.
Japan's 'stability' comes from the barrel of a gun telling them what they were going to do and how.

Come on.


My reason for posting still stands. Islam is in opposition to Western civilizationp


- For some maybe. But Islam is like Christianity. There are numerous versions and the current notion that they are all violent lunatics waiting to suicide themselves and us all to death is ridiculous.


Yes, I make dogs bark and small children cry whenever
they see me....


- Well at least I'm sure your mother loved you!






[edit on 1-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1  2  3    5  6 >>

log in

join