A Second Sphinx?

(picture from the Sphinx Stele)

Possible?

I ran across some information a few days ago when exploring some comments made in another thread asserting that the Sphinx may or may not be a "cherubim."

The 'theory' alledges that there was a possible second Sphinx, and that it was destroyed by a lightning strike:

In the Egyptian Museum there is a stela called the "Inventory Stela", which proves that Cheops saw the sphinx and it also mentions that lightening struck the tail of the nemes headdress of the sphinx and destroyed it. To the south the lightening also burnt a sycamore tree. The area between the sphinx and the tree is empty today (I believe this is where a second sphinx lays buried), it could have also been struck by the same lightening causing it great destruction.

The Second Sphinx Theory

And then this:

The Great Sphinx, carved from bedrock at Giza, is a unique monument. There had been nothing like it before, and nothing like it was to be constructed on the same scale since. But in ancient Egyptian iconography, sphinxes usually traveled in pairs. Could there have been a second Great Sphinx at Giza? Archaeologist Michael Poe is certain of it. He wrote:

"There is currently absolutely no archaeological evidence of Khephren 'repairing' the Sphinx. There are two ancient Egyptian references, both during the Middle Kingdom, at a considerably later time. One has it that Khephren found the Sphinx (which would support the Sphinx is older than Khepern), and that Khephern altered it's face. This same source (fragmentary papyrus) said that there was another Sphinx facing this one on the other side of the Nile, and both were built here to represent the dividing line between Northern and Southern Egypt. The other reference said that Khephren built the Sphinx.

Have you ever seen just one Sphinx in later Egypt that didn't have another? Not only did the ancient Egyptians mention a second Sphinx, but so did the Greeks, Romans, and Muslims. It was destroyed between 1000-1200 ad.

At the entrance to buildings and temples there are two Sphinxes, side by side, but on the avenue or approach to the temple they are facing each other. Sometimes they may have as much as 100 or so facing each other in the avenue. The Nile is Egypt's avenue between North and South. All of the writings about the two Sphinxes say that they were facing each other. The second one, by the way, was partly destroyed during a high Nile flood, and then completely destroyed by ensuing Moslems carting it off to rebuild their villages."

Was There a Second Great Sphinx at Giza?


Something is telling me I have mentioned this theory before, but hey.
In the last link, it is mentioned that past Arab writers have written about this 2nd Sphinx:

Al-I'Drisi (AD 1099-1166) who wrote about it in Kitab al-Mamalik wa al-Mansalik (a large geographic encyclopedia) and Al-Kitab al-Jujari, a geographical encyclopedia on Asia and Africa. He describes a second sphinx across the Nile from the first in very bad state of repair, made of mud (bricks?) and faced with stone, most of the stone having been hauled away by local inhabitants and now the Nile "lapping at it's feet." He doesn't say if it was the same size, but since the Nile moved further east after AD 1166, then it would have been destroyed.

Ibn Battuta (AD 1307-1377) in his Travels in Asia and Africa doesn't mention it, either because it doesn't exist, or has already been destroyed by then (it was written around AD 1325-1354).

Musabbihi mentions a smaller Sphinx across the Nile from the large one "south of Cairo" in a "ruined state of brick and stone" in the Annals of Rabi II around AD 1024.

Nasir-i Khosrau visited Egypt between Aug 1047 and April 1048 and heard rumors of a second one but apparently never looked for it or saw it.

Assertion's and hypothesis's have mentioned that if there is a Sphinx located on the East side, then there should be one on the West side, that is, if the theory holds true that Sphinx's came in pairs.

It's an interesting theory, but not sure if it is feasible or even has been remotely explored enough.

Thoughts or comments welcome.



seekerof

[edit on 25-11-2004 by Seekerof]

Unfortunatly, I dont think we will ever know, because AncientEgyptians took most of there knowlege to the grave.

Some say that it sits at the location because on the longest day of the year if you stand where the Sphinx lies, you would see the sun set right in the middle of 2 pyramids. But those are probably the same people who think that 3 pyramids were places in the order to match what they saw above them, Orion's belt. But I see it for what it is, The Ancient Egyptians were great builders. I do not believe the other theory that it was all built by Aliens, We dont use stone to build things today, so if we were advanced enough to build massive structures on another planet we wouldn't make them out of stone.

It's obvious what happened, America was jealous that they didn't have a Sphinx, so they found the other one that was hidden under the sand and had it transported to Las Vegas.

It seems a plausible theory to me. An interesting thing I noticed in the picture from the Steele is that the two sphinxes are not identical. Do you know if this was a common practice in ancient Egypt? It seems to me that most pairs of monuments are as similar as is possible.

Another question I suppose I should just look up for my self is how far away from the Nile is the bedrock on the far side? If there isn't any bedrock available building the second sphinx out of dirt with a stone finish would make sense, but not if there is an available plateu in the area.

very interesting topic. I could see why there may of been 2 sphinxs because it would make sense after all it is the guardian of the pyramids ad to have two of them would make sense. While as mentioned before it could of been destroyed by lightning, the nile flooding or just general vandalism wouldn't there be more evidence eg some kind of oral tradition or archeolgical evidence, discovery of material from the sphinx in other places etc

If there was a second sphinx it would probablly be burried undr alot of sand or maybe somewhere in south america. If you believe that the ancient world traded with each other and all that and since there are pyramids in south america, maybe theres a sphinx there only burried under trees and moss.

Quite interesting. Nice find by the way. It's possible it was created much earlier that the "second/first found" one, so it could have eroded or been destroyed by a past Pharoh...

Originally posted by Seekerof

(picture from the Sphinx Stele)

In fact, there are dozens and dozens of sphynxes around Egypt. There is a whole walkway lined with them at the Temple at Karnak.

Catchpenny.org, the site where you took the GIF of Khepheren's two sphynxes from (you can see his name on the cartouche between them) does a pretty decent job of talking about what's known about the sphynxes and reviews fairly good evidence.

It's suggestive about a second sphynx, but as he points out, inconclusive. If it was (as was mentioned) a mud-brick construction, there simply won't be anything left after the Nile inundation.

Question is... why build it out of DIFFERENT material?

The 'theory' alledges that there was a possible second Sphinx, and that it was destroyed by a lightning strike:

In the Egyptian Museum there is a stela called the "Inventory Stela", which proves that Cheops saw the sphinx and it also mentions that lightening struck the tail of the nemes headdress of the sphinx and destroyed it. To the south the lightening also burnt a sycamore tree. The area between the sphinx and the tree is empty today (I believe this is where a second sphinx lays buried), it could have also been struck by the same lightening causing it great destruction.

I think the correct translation here is "destroyed the headdress." Lightning simply wouldn't destroy something as big as a sphynx. And the Geocities site can be accused of flights of fancy -- there ain't no tree standing in Egypt that's 5,000 years old.

I don't know that they always came in pairs... I'll ask on the Osiris listserv sometime next week.

I think he suggests 2 of the bigger sized Sphinx's.

Bryd, thank you for your imput. Your knowledge and skills in this area are outstanding, as are your connections.

You mention:

Question is... why build it out of DIFFERENT material?

I found what was mentioned on this to be ironic also. In all honesty, I cannot say without going into unconfirmed and unsubstantiated theories and hypothesis's. I agree that the lightning strike would not have totally destroyed the 'second' possible Sphinx, considering its size and mass ratios. I also concur on the inundation, if the 'second' was built with mud bricks.

Your mention of:

I'll ask on the Osiris listserv sometime next week.

would be quite swell.

I am still trying to find more concrete information on the theory that Sphinx's come in pairs, as I mentioned in the "cherubim" thread, concerning "cherubims." For some reason, something is telling me that I read or heard this somewhere before, but I cannot put my finger (can't remember) on the source(s). Will keep trying though.



seekerof

This idea fascinates me too. I was wondering the other day why the tablet outside of the sphinx depicts two separate sphinx both supposedly with underground chambers.



It would seem to me that the ancient Egyptians would have placed the second sphinx about where I drew on. However I don't believe that there is a natural rock outcropping there that would facilitate the construction of a second sphinx. However, the Egyptians were master masons. They certainly could have built up a second sphinx using the same techniques they used in the construction of the pyramids.

Of course there could have been a second sphinx at that location however it could have been dismantled at some point in history and it is in fact now part of several buildings around Giza. The same thing happened to the stone circle at Avebury in England.

Perhaps an investigation into the area where the second sphinx could take place to see if a foundation was left or perhaps some indication of a construct at the site.

Wow I just realized that this is quite the old thread. Oh well better to add to an old discussion than to start a new one.

[edit on 6/22/2007 by whatukno]

Originally posted by whatukno
This idea fascinates me too. I was wondering the other day why the tablet outside of the sphinx depicts two separate sphinx both supposedly with underground chambers.

Which tablet? Do you have a link? I'd love to see a picture of the tablet.

The dream stela, Prince Tuthmosis (son of Amenhotep II) was hunting in the desert one day when he stopped for a rest between the sphinx's paws, much of sphinx was covered in sand blown. Tuthmosis fell asleep and in his dream the Sphinx spoke to him, promising the throne of Egypt in return for clearing the sand from its body. Tuthmosis cleared the sand and so the Sphinx made him King of Egypt.

I'm going to look into this some. This has me intrigued. How could we lose a Sphinx?

Also, the Dream Stela does lead one to the conclusion that there are indeed 2 Sphinxes (is that even how you spell the plural of this?), but it leaves me wondering whether or not anyone will ever know, as tight-lipped as Egypt seems to be about any documents that they find. Truth be told, I don't think we'll ever know. Maybe we could convince them to let an expedition go over and look. I wonder if Zahi would allow it.

TheBorg

It would seem to fit symmetrically The ancient Egyptians were quite deliberate in the things that they had done. The alignment of the standing sphinx to the pyramid leads one to speculate that a second sphinx could have existed.

Unfortunately about 170 years ago there was a plan in place to dismantle the pyramids to modernize Egypt. It would have been a horrible sacrifice of one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. Perhaps this plan was put into place at one point and the second sphinx was indeed dismantled and the material used in the construction of buildings around Giza.

I had always thought that the second Sphinx was located parallel to the first, with the causeway to the Great Pyramid running between them. I seem to remember a documentary showing the remains of the foundation there, and the archaeologists speculating that the chamber beneath the causeway had linked the two Sphinxes in the past.

Does anybody else notice that the Sphinxes on the Dream Stela are on top of tall buildings...?

[edit on 6/23/2007 by mythatsabigprobe]

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe


Does anybody else notice that the Sphinxes on the Dream Stela are on top of tall buildings...?

The popular theory is that the sphinx rests atop a library, a grand vault, or a hall of records of some type. Some interject that the sphinx is actually Atlantian in origin and that underneath is an airtight vault that contains many manuscripts from the lost civilization.

Of course this is speculation and there is no real evidence that would support this theory.

What is widely acknowledged and supported by research and excavation is that the sphinx originally was not as large as it appears now. But in fact was built up and refurbished repeatedly over time. The original sphinx is actually quite smaller in size and could lend credence to the second sphinx theory. A smaller sphinx after all would be much easier to construct if there was no natural rock outcropping in which to build upon.

What would be interesting but near impossible to get the Egyptian government to agree to, would be an exploratory excavation of the supposed second site where a sphinx may have originally rested. Perhaps a second vault would be found and could be opened without risk of further damaging the sphinx.

there is no credible evidence of any vault or hall of records in egypt
the original source for these claims are Madame Blavatsky who made many claims which have since proved erroneous if not laughable and Edgar Cayce who at his own admission came up with the idea when he was asleep and who was very familiar with the work of Blavatsky

Originally posted by Marduk
there is no credible evidence of any vault or hall of records in egypt

Your right, there is no credible evidence yet besides the dream stela's depiction of the sphinx atop of some sort of structure. This has yet to be explianed. This is the reason for the speculation of a vault or some structure underneath the sphinx.

Course let's not discount Edgar Cayce's dream account of the hall of records. After all a dream about the sphinx worked out pretty well for Prince Tuthmosis.

It would make a whole lot of sense for the ancient Egyptians to have a hall of records. The Greeks had the great library at Alexandria. Wouldn't it be feasible that a people that could create structures like the sphinx and the pyramids would have recorded their ideas and knowledge in a secure location? Knowledge in early civilizations was power. The ancient Egyptians held construction techniques that would be valuable to other cultures.

Course let's not discount Edgar Cayce's dream account of the hall of records. After all a dream about the sphinx worked out pretty well for Prince Tuthmosis.

er no
if youre claiming that channeled information is valid then youre more of a loony than cayce was
he clearly only did it for the money
Prince Tutmose had the dream recorded after the fact
and the two sphinxes pictured on the stele do not represent the sphinx itself, just the akhet. which most commonly is shown flanked by two sphinx. it represents the sunrise on the horizon and is very common on declarations by Pharoahs who claim descent from the Sun God

whenever you hear someone claim Cayce was credible you immediately know two things
1) they don't know much about Cayce's predictions and other claims
2) they don't know much about Egypt

I had never heard this theory, but it does make perfect sense. True, the Sphinx are both on top of buildings, but does anyone else wonder if at one point, a few thousand years ago, thos buildings were above ground and have since been covered by sand, but that would mean the pyramids also go farily deep under ground, and arent there entrances on regular ground level already? If so that would disclose everything ive just stated.

I dont think the 'vault' if you will is anything atlantian, if such a thing exists, however i do feel that there is a record vault under the sphinx. What records, i have no idea...

I would add more to this discussion, but ive worked a long day and im tired. So ill retire now...

Oh and by the way, I think Sphinx is plural for Sphinx, kinda like Deer is pluaral for Deer, another great example of that language in which we call English.