Should the Bible be used as a textbook in schools?

Originally posted by _BLiND_
I think it should be teached in schools as a text book, especially along side the lord of the rings as a history paper.

It is a story, if i write a story right now and use names and places of long forgotten people, does that make it fact? no.

But it's enevitable, with bush and his jihad/crusade, whatever you want to call it. have fun with that.

huh???

I think I know what you are trying to say, but I need some help. Are you saying that it is nothing more than a story to be read like science fiction?

Regardless of what bush may or may not want, the concept of Christianity being taught in public schools will never float. If attempted, it would draw fire from almost all angles and split our already divided country further.

BG

True, as it was pointed out, it is not the responsibility of the school to teach Christianity, but as this is a Christian nation, and I have proven time and time again on this board that it is a Christian nation (At least was founded to be one), it would harm nothing. The teaching would have to be very generic, not going anwhere near any of the topics that separate the several denominations, though.

Can you prove it here please. If I can recall my history, American's founder may have been Christian, by majority, but the certainly did not adhere Christianity unto the Constituion, and, they, themselves, had run from religious prosecution. America is a secular and pluralist society, and quite laudable regarding those qualities aswell.

Religion SHOULD be taught in schools, or should we say: theology. Canada has taken light of the positive ramnifications of teaching "world religion" in class rooms. Judging from the level of idiocy of racist and bigots on this board -not to say any names-, I think it would employe some standard of acceptence, in an already ignorant world, of others.

Deep

No way. We need to let children decide their religion for themselves. I mean really...MAKING them read the bible? unless they go to a religious school, we cannot force them to do such a thing. think of the problems that would arise. it would further separate our country and intense opposition would ensue. what of the muslims, jews, atheists, etc...I mean all America does is try to force other nations to be more like us, instead of deciding for themselves. this is a country of religious freedom, and was founded as such. doing this would be horrendous.

[edit on 24-11-2004 by cleopatra selene]

There is also morality and ethics. How do you teach the roots of morality without employing the Bible, which has been the basis for morality for thousands of years. Though much of it may be outdated, there are parts that are still very relevant today. The Bible shows the history of our natural law system.

Which brings me to Social Studies....The Bible is ultimately one of our ancient sources of law. There is not a law code today that the Bible has not touched in some shape or form. I believe it is very relevant.

In my senior year of high school I was required to read Genesis as part of a Western Civilization class.

As much as people want to ignore it or bury it, the Bible, morality and religion have shaped our world for thousands of years and still does today.

[edit on 24-11-2004 by Jamuhn]

Well, I meant for my first post in this forum to be in the "Introductions" section, but the subject of this thread caught my eye before I had the chance to introduce myself. All in good time, though.

In my opinion this is not an arguable subject, because you just can't go around using scriptures to "teach" people when, believe it or not, the Bible is not PROVEN to be a factual book. I myself have trouble discerning between what is an actual happening in the Bible and what is just a story. I don't know how anyone can claim to know that there really was an Adam and Eve, or a Noah and his big Ark, or if those are just parables to teach a lesson. The Bible is filled with stories and parables, and it's all intermixed with the "true" stories, that to me, even if the Bible is indeed the word of God, (which it may or may not be), we can't be sure what is factual history and what is just a good story with a good moral.

And aside from that, there's too many people who do NOT believe in the Bible, that it would offend a great deal of people, including me. I mean, talk about a civil rights issue. I once refused to do an assignment in English class while going to Junior High in Utah, Mormon capital of the world. The assignment had a question that could not be answered unless you knew a thing or two about Mormon doctrine. Although I knew the answer, it offended me that the teacher would be so discriminatory toward the one person in our class who was not Mormon. I think you might have a lot of people refusing to study a book that they believe is blasphemous to their own beliefs.

Not to mention, can you imagine the hell teachers would have to go through putting a curriculum together for a book like this?

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, my insights may not be very insightful at all, I just wanted to get my opinion out there.

[edit on 24-11-2004 by an3rkist]

Not to mention, can you imagine the hell teachers would have to go through putting a curriculum together for a book like this?

Not terribly difficult at all.
In college, I had the pleasure of taking a Religion 101 class entitled Introduction to the Bible. Was quite an eye-opening class and taught from an unbiased viewpoint, though the college was member and sanctioned by the Southern Baptist (ie: it was a Christian college).
I then took an extensive world religions class, also quite informative and well taught.

As to one being offended by reading the Bible, despite not being of the Christian faith, try reading it from a open-minded, unbiased literarture point of view. Being offended is a relative statement these days anyhow.



seekerof

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
No. Not particularly. Here's my reason why.

The schools should be focusing on Reading, Writing and Arithmetic, not to mention hard sciences and languages. It should spend all its resources on these topics and no time on either religion or the liberal social engineering topics. It takes minimum of 12 years to prepare a human to enter the workforce, and with the changing of the world, both high and low tec jobs being outsourced, the child needs as much information as possible to compete. Parents need to turn off the TV and do their jobs of rearing their offspring.

I wished I could applaud you TC

I also think that to much emphasis is placed on sports, so that while we are churning out great football players half of them cant read. We are outsourcing the low end jobs and we are starting to get ate up in the Tech sector because we are not turning out kids with even basic Math skills not to mention Science.

But instead of addressing that issue we are having court cases on whither a kid can bring a Bible to school or they can have a manger scene during Christmas. I disagree with the statement that we are a Christian nation but fail to see how either of the two things I mentioned would harm ANYBODY regardless of their faith.

If we don't take care with giving our future citizens the proper eduction to start in life we had better study the bible, because we wont have a prayer

Originally posted by jupiter869
Should we start using the bible as a text book in the classroom?

What? Why the heck would one start doing that? Atextbook for what? Why it over any other religion? Maybe students could study the Koran to keep it neutral eh? Think anyone would like that idea?

Maybe so. It may teach atheists a little about religion (or Christianity at least) and help them realize it is a part of our society and always has been.

Since when do atheists not understand religion or understand its value and history in society? Atheists are more aware of these things than probably a large section of the 'religious'. The religious practically don't think about religion at all, they jusst react, whereas atheists spend a heck of a lot of time thinking about it. (It's not a bad thing to know about religion even if you don't believe in it.) Perhaps then they may not demand that the word �God� be stricken from every sign, monument, building and document (including the Declaration of Independence).
God is only mentioned in teh Declaration of Indepence in the portion that says 'In the year of our lord, yada yada yada" and to say that atheists are requesting it be removed is, quite plainly, a lie. Perhaps you should learn from atheists why lying is bad, since obviously religion has failed to teach you that.

They may learn to respect our roots about who we were and who we are [/quiote]
Perhaps if the 'religionists' would learn about the actual beleifs of the founders and what deism is all about and why a number of them had profound distaste for the bible then teh 'religionists' would respect the nation's roots and where it is today.

croat
They would only use it to talk about Egypt, Rome and Israel.

And even in those subjects it would be a very poor text book. 'Biblical Archaeology' has found that most of whats going on in the bible never happened. Like exodus and the like.

xephyr
Much of what we understand of early Jewish history, as well as that of Babylon, Assyria, etc is taken from the Bible

Like what? It gets extremely little correct. I'd say its biggest 'success' is keeping the name of the hittites alive, when knowledge of them was dead. People hadn't thought that they existed at all, and then later found out about them. However teh bible didn't provide much information about them at all, just some names. And its accounts of jewish history and foreign customs are 'biased' at best. I don't mean to knock these books, but they aren't good for very much other than either being a source of religion or some relatively decent poetry (like teh psalms. Not really world class, but good).

There is nothing wrong with using the Bible as required reading in a literature class.

Sure, and there it can be deconstructed, torn apart, critically analyzed, and utterly rejected as a monolith single-inspiration unchanging text, certainly not anything inspired by any god. But really, there are better works of literature, from a 'literary' standpoint, than the bible, so why even bother to use it? It'd be torwards the bottom of the list.

TC
but as this is a Christian nation, and I have proven time and time again on this board that it is a Christian nation (At least was founded to be one), it would harm nothing

What? The US is not a christian nation. The articles of its founding were not christian documents and didn't draw the rights of man directly from christian theology. The founders weren't trying to model the country on the city of god or some biblical interpretation of a nation. They were modeling it on the roman republic and the spartan city state. Sure, many of the founders were christians, and the Deists were sort of half-way in that group, and I suppose one could argue that anything 'nice' stems from a christian tradition, but beyond that the US isn't a christian nation, other than to say the majority of people at least profess to be christians. But the US certainly accomodates jews and muslims and what not. The US is a secular nation first, not a christian nation.

The schools should be focusing on

Perhaps that pragmatic point is the most important one right now. US public schools are failing, nationwide (generally), miserably. Teaching 'religious and cultural diversity and humanitarian perspective' is a luxury. The Basics aren't being picked up by the students, so there is no room for luxuries.

jamuhn
How do you teach the roots of morality without employing the Bible, which has been the basis for morality for thousands of years.

The bible has been part of jewish morality and ethics for thousands of years and has been a major source of 'christian' morality and ethics for only two thousand years. Irregardless people were moral and ethical before the bible and are so today without it. The roots of the type of ethics that people want taught in the US today are not found in teh bible with its laws concerning cleanliness and what foods are metaphysically distasteful or the proper procedure a man is supposed to use to break his wife's hymen or any of that. The roots of the United States are exactly where the Founders, er, found them. In Rome and Sparta and English Common Law. The 'christian tradition' wrt morality and ethics is communal, group loving, charitable, world denying, life denying, pious obediance to god authorized tyrants. The founders weren't interested in charity and obediance and servitude.

There is not a law code today that the Bible has not touched in some shape or form

Perhaps, but there is not a law today that the vedic epics haven't touched on and haven't touched on first. The presentation of the popular assembly in the Odyssey is a better source and inspiration for democratic society and law than the bible. I mean, honestly, the OT was written for a group of pastoral sheep herders from 5 thousand years ago. Sure, some of its relvant (killing people, baaaad) but its not particularly appropriate or helpful.

seekerof
As to one being offended by reading the Bible, despite not being of the Christian faith, try reading it from a open-minded, unbiased literarture point of view.

Why? Why shouldn't muslims be "offended" at being forced to read the bible in public schools of all places??? Or anyone else who doesn't go for that religion? I very seriously doubt that most of the peopel supportive of biblical instruction in public schools would also support koranical teachings in public schools. And, about that University being 'unbiased'. How can it not be biased, if it was teaching something contrary to the beleifs ofteh "Southern Baptist" organization that sanctioned it, would they not 'un-sanction' it? Isn't that enough to say that there might be some bias inherent in any class it gives on the bible and christianity?

amuk
I also think that to much emphasis is placed on sports

I find it bizzare also, especially since even in 'Physical Education" classes, well, its not phys ed or general health and fitness, but rather games and sports that are taught. Phys ed classes shoudl be more like military PT sessions with calesthenics and or at least varied 'track and field' types of activities, rather than learning the arbitrary rules of lacrosse or field hockey or any of that. IOW, especially given that the US has terrible health problems, it should be used to rectify that problem, and teach students how to stay healthy and why they should for their lifetimes. Obviously this can include 'fun and games', but that shouldn't be the focus.

Originally posted by jupiter869
Should we start using the bible as a text book in the classroom?

What? Why the heck would one start doing that? Atextbook for what? Why it over any other religion? Maybe students could study the Koran to keep it neutral eh? Think anyone would like that idea?

Maybe so. It may teach atheists a little about religion (or Christianity at least) and help them realize it is a part of our society and always has been.

Since when do atheists not understand religion or understand its value and history in society? Atheists are more aware of these things than probably a large section of the 'religious'. The religious practically don't think about religion at all, they jusst react, whereas atheists spend a heck of a lot of time thinking about it. (It's not a bad thing to know about religion even if you don't believe in it.) Perhaps then they may not demand that the word �God� be stricken from every sign, monument, building and document (including the Declaration of Independence).
God is only mentioned in teh Declaration of Indepence in the portion that says 'In the year of our lord, yada yada yada" and to say that atheists are requesting it be removed is, quite plainly, a lie. Perhaps you should learn from atheists why lying is bad, since obviously religion has failed to teach you that.

They may learn to respect our roots about who we were and who we are [/quiote]
Perhaps if the 'religionists' would learn about the actual beleifs of the founders and what deism is all about and why a number of them had profound distaste for the bible then teh 'religionists' would respect the nation's roots and where it is today.

croat
They would only use it to talk about Egypt, Rome and Israel.

And even in those subjects it would be a very poor text book. 'Biblical Archaeology' has found that most of whats going on in the bible never happened. Like exodus and the like.

xephyr
Much of what we understand of early Jewish history, as well as that of Babylon, Assyria, etc is taken from the Bible

Like what? It gets extremely little correct. I'd say its biggest 'success' is keeping the name of the hittites alive, when knowledge of them was dead. People hadn't thought that they existed at all, and then later found out about them. However teh bible didn't provide much information about them at all, just some names. And its accounts of jewish history and foreign customs are 'biased' at best. I don't mean to knock these books, but they aren't good for very much other than either being a source of religion or some relatively decent poetry (like teh psalms. Not really world class, but good).

There is nothing wrong with using the Bible as required reading in a literature class.

Sure, and there it can be deconstructed, torn apart, critically analyzed, and utterly rejected as a monolith single-inspiration unchanging text, certainly not anything inspired by any god. But really, there are better works of literature, from a 'literary' standpoint, than the bible, so why even bother to use it? It'd be torwards the bottom of the list.

TC
but as this is a Christian nation, and I have proven time and time again on this board that it is a Christian nation (At least was founded to be one), it would harm nothing

What? The US is not a christian nation. The articles of its founding were not christian documents and didn't draw the rights of man directly from christian theology. The founders weren't trying to model the country on the city of god or some biblical interpretation of a nation. They were modeling it on the roman republic and the spartan city state. Sure, many of the founders were christians, and the Deists were sort of half-way in that group, and I suppose one could argue that anything 'nice' stems from a christian tradition, but beyond that the US isn't a christian nation, other than to say the majority of people at least profess to be christians. But the US certainly accomodates jews and muslims and what not. The US is a secular nation first, not a christian nation.

The schools should be focusing on

Perhaps that pragmatic point is the most important one right now. US public schools are failing, nationwide (generally), miserably. Teaching 'religious and cultural diversity and humanitarian perspective' is a luxury. The Basics aren't being picked up by the students, so there is no room for luxuries.

jamuhn
How do you teach the roots of morality without employing the Bible, which has been the basis for morality for thousands of years.

The bible has been part of jewish morality and ethics for thousands of years and has been a major source of 'christian' morality and ethics for only two thousand years. Irregardless people were moral and ethical before the bible and are so today without it. The roots of the type of ethics that people want taught in the US today are not found in teh bible with its laws concerning cleanliness and what foods are metaphysically distasteful or the proper procedure a man is supposed to use to break his wife's hymen or any of that. The roots of the United States are exactly where the Founders, er, found them. In Rome and Sparta and English Common Law. The 'christian tradition' wrt morality and ethics is communal, group loving, charitable, world denying, life denying, pious obediance to god authorized tyrants. The founders weren't interested in charity and obediance and servitude.

There is not a law code today that the Bible has not touched in some shape or form

Perhaps, but there is not a law today that the vedic epics haven't touched on and haven't touched on first. The presentation of the popular assembly in the Odyssey is a better source and inspiration for democratic society and law than the bible. I mean, honestly, the OT was written for a group of pastoral sheep herders from 5 thousand years ago. Sure, some of its relvant (killing people, baaaad) but its not particularly appropriate or helpful.

seekerof
As to one being offended by reading the Bible, despite not being of the Christian faith, try reading it from a open-minded, unbiased literarture point of view.

Why? Why shouldn't muslims be "offended" at being forced to read the bible in public schools of all places??? Or anyone else who doesn't go for that religion? I very seriously doubt that most of the peopel supportive of biblical instruction in public schools would also support koranical teachings in public schools. And, about that University being 'unbiased'. How can it not be biased, if it was teaching something contrary to the beleifs ofteh "Southern Baptist" organization that sanctioned it, would they not 'un-sanction' it? Isn't that enough to say that there might be some bias inherent in any class it gives on the bible and christianity?

amuk
I also think that to much emphasis is placed on sports

I find it bizzare also, especially since even in 'Physical Education" classes, well, its not phys ed or general health and fitness, but rather games and sports that are taught. Phys ed classes shoudl be more like military PT sessions with calesthenics and or at least varied 'track and field' types of activities, rather than learning the arbitrary rules of lacrosse or field hockey or any of that. IOW, especially given that the US has terrible health problems, it should be used to rectify that problem, and teach students how to stay healthy and why they should for their lifetimes. Obviously this can include 'fun and games', but that shouldn't be the focus.

I took a class my second year of college called 'Comparative Study of Religion' It was optional, and the people that took it were fairly open minded about having their religion referred to as a 'mythology' of sorts.

Very different experience from when I took a mythology elective in High School, where even hinting that the bible was the same as Greek or Roman mythology. Many of the kids in my class couldn't handle it, and it caused problems outside of the classroom simply because it wasn't stressed enough that the mindset should be somewhat objective.

It's because of that I don't believe it ought to be taught in public schools... I don't think kids can handle many of the issues presented. It's hard to grow up believing one thing your entire life just to have it picked apart just as you're settling into your comfort zone. In college it's a different story... you know what you're getting into before you even sign up, there's more of a choice as opposed to be being stuck in a class for the sake of enrollment issues.

No, Zero, I will not do it at this time. It is not a paragraph or two, but a class worthy of credit hours. If you�d like to run through my previous posts by clicking on the button at the bottom of this post, you�ll find it. My wrists are not up to the task at this time.
When I�m thoroughly stuffed from binge-eating tonight, I might be able to find it if you do not.

Cleo Sel, that is very interesting that you think that children should fend for themselves spiritually. Actually, I don�t think interesting is the right word, but it�ll do.

I think it would be a great idea to have the Bible as one of the text books in a Religious Studies Class. Of course, it should be along with other Religious texts, just so students can get a broader viewpoint on the subject of religion. I don't think it is a good idea to have the Bible as material for a literature course, because (as mentioned before) some students would not be able to handle having their religious book torn apart and dissected.

[edit on 25-11-2004 by babar]

This is the first time that I have visited this site and my first post.
In my opinion religious studies classes should not be taught at any less than Senior HS level.
As preparation for this course, I believe that students should first learn the dictionary definitions of words like "virtue","value", "to care" (verb), "satisfaction", "contentment" and many other words that can be applied to human relations, the human experience, and effective communication.
They should have already read and discussed Orwells' novel "1984" so that they can recognize how the cultural authorities value and use Orwellian language as a mind control tool in order to discourage independent thought.
In addition, it is my beleif that the students should be well grounded in the history of human affairs and the history of the class warfare that has always existed between the rich and powerful and the work force.

Maybe students could study the Koran to keep it neutral eh? Think anyone would like that idea?

Yes I think it would be intrsting to atulay read the koran rather than just hear what fundametalists(both chriten and muslim) take from it.

Originally posted by Elfwood
Yes I think it would be intrsting to atulay read the koran rather than just hear what fundametalists(both chriten and muslim) take from it.

No one is preventing you or anyone else from reading it, so go ahead. I suspect that most people who approve of the bible being required reading in school, and not for 'literature' lesson or even some 'historical lesson' but to 'straighen those dern kids out' would be horrififed if scholars from the local mosques were brought into their schools to have their kids do required readings from the Koran and Hadiths.

Should the bible be used as a textbook in schools?

First of all, which bible? There are alot of proclaimed "bibles" out there.

Personally, I think religion should be seperate from school. It causes alot of complications and conflict. Simply put, If you teach one religion, you will end up having to teach all of them or none.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
True, as it was pointed out, it is not the responsibility of the school to teach Christianity, but as this is a Christian nation, and I have proven time and time again on this board that it is a Christian nation (At least was founded to be one), it would harm nothing.

I usually don't post to the religious forum, but I think the above should be answered; it presents a very common misconception about the United States held by many, especially by evangelical Christians.

The United States was not founded as a Christian nation, and our forefathers made this clear. All of the European nations were "Christian nations", and this union of government and religion was a disaster; our forefathers (most of whom were Deists, not Christians) wanted no part of it.

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

Jefferson also said:

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

John Adams:

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

George Washington:

The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

James Madison;

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

Benjamin Franklin, a Deist and close personal friend of Voltaire and Paine, was also critical of Christianity.

In a letter to the Dansbury Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson penned the following famous words:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

The United States of America was founded not on a religion, but on a radical, revolutionary ideal from the Age of Enlightenment: Freedom.

The United States was not founded as a Christian nation, and our forefathers made this clear. All of the European nations were "Christian nations", and this union of government and religion was a disaster; our forefathers (most of whom were Deists, not Christians) wanted no part of it.

Yeah, maybe this is why your society is so screwed up with a definite lack of distinct values - where the world watches in humour as your shows like Jerry Springer reflect where the cultural values of your general population are at, where a government claims to be 'Christian' but their actions show otherwise, where you have the highest rate of gun deaths in the world, where you cry freedom and liberty as it is being stripped away from you at the same time, where your 'founding fathers' thought it acceptable to have a sub class slave system ...... the list never ends.

The United States of America was founded not on a religion, but on a radical, revolutionary ideal from the Age of Enlightenment: Freedom.

So the question begs, what are you exactly 'free' from? Terrorism? (just a hint of sarcasm) I am pretty sure that you will become one of the least 'free' nations on earth.

'Age of Enlightenment: Freedom' Interesting terminology. According to the Bible and the garden of Eden, this is exactly what the devil offered Eve. So, not such a new concept.

I guess I should address the topic now: Yes, the Bible should be taught as an elective in a religious studies class. All beliefs should be covered in schools. Student can then decide for themselves what to believe. (After all, evolution a theory is taught at all schools). They should be at least given the opportunity to learn what other people believe. I agree, it is a sad day when this needs to be done at an institution level and not at home.

Just my opinion.

PS. (Sorry if I get any Americans off side, the last post niggled me)

Freedom is a sytem by witch you can do what you like as long as it dose not interfear with the rights of others(as a side not anarkey is being able to what you like)

hmmm Interesting, Over here(England) We have one lesson a week up until year 11(11'th grade)in which we learn about major world religions. We would learn about a different religion every term, For example one term we would learn about Islam, the next we'd read parts of the bible. It makes sense in todays world that students at least have some knowledge of the major religions that exist in the world.
Never was any religious ideas forced on the students.

Something like this would be good in the states, however the hard line christians would insist that kids ONLY learn about the bible, which defeats the point in these lessons...