Social programming + the collapse of religion and values.

frazzle
Unfortunately, women are filled with anger and bitterness and they're looking in all the wrong places for a sense of self.

And people wonder why they're called "sexist."

What a baseless, meaningless statement of absolute arrogance! So every woman everywhere is angry and bitter?

You know how they should find their sense of self, all on your own? Would that be "The Good Book", I imagine?

Yes, plenty of uplifting tales for women in that volume. Women as property, women as rape-objects, women as responsible for the "sins" of the whole human race ... /eyeroll spinning like slot machines ...

And some Christians wonder why they're called on being "falsely superior."

Gryphon66

frazzle
Unfortunately, women are filled with anger and bitterness and they're looking in all the wrong places for a sense of self.

And people wonder why they're called "sexist."

What a baseless, meaningless statement of absolute arrogance! So every woman everywhere is angry and bitter?

Of course not, that was only in reference to the more vociferous feminist activists who spew hated and resentment toward that other half of their humanness. They know who they are.

You know how they should find their sense of self, all on your own? Would that be "The Good Book", I imagine?

No surprise that you didn't read the site I linked before spitting at me.

frazzle
Okay, lets change the goalpost to the claim that wage inequality is gender based. So why does the male CEO of an insurance company make a thousand percent more dollars in an annual bonus than can be earned by some other male in, say, the plumbing industry? Plumbers definitely rank higher on my list of which is more important for keeping life (and other things) running smoothly.

Don't be obtuse. There are multiple types of wage inequality. One of which is definitely gender based. Women tend to make less than men for the same EXACT jobs. While you can argue many different positions for the wage inequality that you are talking about, unless you are a sexist, you shouldn't be supporting the wage inequality that I am speaking about.

Who's pretending otherwise? The human race has always been in a race for the bottom. Something has kept us from getting all the way there so far but we're still working on it.

What does this even mean? What is the bottom? What happens when we reach the bottom? To me, those sentences read like a religious person upset that society is moving away from what they consider right and just, but that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

Absolutely correct about the indigenous peoples and they would still be taking care of their young and old, as well as the natural world if not for the invasion of "modern" morals and codes. Traditional people's still live that way. It isn't about longevity, its about how well life is lived and what makes life worth living.

Incidentally, that description was also passed down from one generation to the next through stories that have a great similarity to parables.

So your only examples of a good society are native tribes like the Native Americans? You know despite the fact that they had civilizations and even empires that were just as destructive, if not more so than European cultures? I mean you do realize that prior to Europeans coming here en mass, Native society was highly varied, distinct and more often than not didn't look anything like the modern day description of what a Native is? Right?

reply to post by Krazysh0t

You know despite the fact that they had civilizations and even empires that were just as destructive, if not more so than European cultures? I mean you do realize that prior to Europeans coming here en mass, Native society was highly varied, distinct and more often than not didn't look anything like the modern day description of what a Native is? Right?

There are always going to be "other" bad people to point fingers at so, by all means, lets ignore those cultures that functioned for the benefit of the people and instead strive to emulate the worst of them.

And like you said "modern day descriptions" are generally made by people who like to emphasize how EVIL those cultures were. IOW, we were doing god's work in destroying them all.

Outta here for now, I have things to do.

reply to post by frazzle

Ironic, that is exactly what this thread is about, finger pointing and ignoring the things in modern society that benefit the people.

frazzle
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

You know despite the fact that they had civilizations and even empires that were just as destructive, if not more so than European cultures? I mean you do realize that prior to Europeans coming here en mass, Native society was highly varied, distinct and more often than not didn't look anything like the modern day description of what a Native is? Right?

There are always going to be "other" bad people to point fingers at so, by all means, lets ignore those cultures that functioned for the benefit of the people and instead strive to emulate the worst of them.

There are good things and bad things about ANY culture, ever. This point doesn't say anything.

And like you said "modern day descriptions" are generally made by people who like to emphasize how EVIL those cultures were. IOW, we were doing god's work in destroying them all.

Outta here for now, I have things to do.

I don't recall ever saying any of that.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by spirited75

 

Yes it seems we are. I didn't realize sharing thoughts was a waste of breath.

edit on 26-2-2014 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

There is not any SEEMS about it LL.

I know you did not and would not realize that,
we have opposite world views,
like I told you once before.

reply to post by spirited75

Actually it only seemed that way because you refused to explain what you meant.

Well this was an enlightening conversation.

reply to post by frazzle

And it would seem that since Christianity is the religion that primarily surrounds you and hampers you in some nebulous way, that would be your particular target.

…because Christianity is literally primarily surrounding me. I live in a nation that is primarily Christian. That said I am against your Islam too.

Agnostics admit that they don't know one way or another, and Atheists say they know there is nothing after death ~ kaput. So the only ones who claim to know the unknowable are the latter. Not very scientific of them if you ask me.

IF that's the belief of said atheist sure. I rarely ever see them say they know with absolute certainty.

I lack a belief in gods existence [atheism] because there is a lack of evidence [agnosticism]. Agnosticism is not 'don't know either way'. Agnosticism states you can't know. God is unprovable. There is no evidence. That's agnosticism. I am not saying I know god doesn't exist, I simply lack the belief in the existence. This position of atheism is compatible with agnosticism.

Ah yes, lets grant them "the right" to act irresponsibly with no consequences or repurcussions, that has worked out so well for women.

I see why you like that book now.

And a lot of people think one should not take one quote from a book and think he knows everything about it.

One? I thought I posted the one that says Allah will brutally murder me simply for being an atheist. Oh well I will post it now. In 3 different translations so you don't accuse me of 'cherry picking' or using a 'fake' one.

[Shakir 22:19] These are two adversaries who dispute about their Lord; then (as to) those who disbelieve, for them are cut out garments of fire, boiling water shall be poured over their heads.
[Pickthal 22:19] These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads,
[Yusufali 22:19] These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.

[Shakir 22:20] With it shall be melted what is in their bellies and (their) skins as well.
[Pickthal 22:20] Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted;
[Yusufali 22:20] With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.

[Shakir 22:21] And for them are whips of iron.
[Pickthal 22:21] And for them are hooked rods of iron.
[Yusufali 22:21] In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.

[Shakir 22:22] Whenever they will desire to go forth from it, from grief, they shall be turned back into it, and taste the chastisement of burning.
[Pickthal 22:22] Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.
[Yusufali 22:22] Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

And it would seem that since Christianity is the religion that primarily surrounds you and hampers you in some nebulous way, that would be your particular target.

…because Christianity is literally primarily surrounding me. I live in a nation that is primarily Christian. That said I am against your Islam too.

My Islam? Because I read a book and thought it was worthwhile? Someone once said "I have written many books, seek them all" or words to that effect. You only see or hear what you choose ~ selectively.

ME: Ah yes, lets grant them "the right" to act irresponsibly with no consequences or repurcussions, that has worked out so well for women.

YOU: I see why you like that book now.

Consequences and repercussions such as STDs, unwanted pregnancies and broken homes. In the first two instances at least, the consequences and repercussions for such irresponsibility are PAID for by taxpayers, many of whom object to promiscuity, whether for religious or social or financial reasons. The taxpayers are the ones who are "surrounded". And screwed. The women (and men) who engage in these activities often pay a silent price for their behavior. And they often end up seeking medication to dull the mental/spiritual pain.

Like I said once before, you need a new Qur'an, one without a political agenda attached.

frazzle

Of course not, that was only in reference to the more vociferous feminist activists who spew hated and resentment toward that other half of their humanness. They know who they are.

SO, it's okay to be sexist so long as women have the audacity to speak their minds openly and you disagree with them.

Check.

Why label their passionate and independent thought as hatred and resentment? Is it that threatening?

reply to post by frazzle

Like I said once before, you need a new Qur'an, one without a political agenda attached.

Lol!!!!!!

I even provided three different translations this time! It's still 'fake' translations huh? heh…

I asked you for which translation to use…. you still have not answered. Why is that?

And I said 'your Islam' because you said it was the best book for 'good life ways'. The best. Perhaps if you don't want people to associate you with Islam you shouldn't say something like that. Just a tip.

Gryphon66

frazzle

Of course not, that was only in reference to the more vociferous feminist activists who spew hated and resentment toward that other half of their humanness. They know who they are.

SO, it's okay to be sexist so long as women have the audacity to speak their minds openly and you disagree with them.

Check.

Why label their passionate and independent thought as hatred and resentment? Is it that threatening?

Well, apparently you missed that site I linked so I'll make my attitude towards wimmin folk a little clearer:

Women as Source

(Russell) Means began his discussion of the importance of matriarchies as a source of guidance in a troubled world by articulating the basis of all matriarchal societies: awe for the woman as life giver. He observed that the calibration of the human gestation period of 280 days with great astronomical cycles indicates “the woman is in rhythm with the entire universe.” “Men get in rhythm by honoring the female,” he said.

an-uncommon-scold.newsvine.com... rite-rigoglioso-phd

As someone keeps saying, your mileage may vary.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

Like I said once before, you need a new Qur'an, one without a political agenda attached.

Lol!!!!!!

I even provided three different translations this time! It's still 'fake' translations huh? heh…

I asked you for which translation to use…. you still have not answered. Why is that?

And I said 'your Islam' because you said it was the best book for 'good life ways'. The best. Perhaps if you don't want people to associate you with Islam you shouldn't say something like that. Just a tip.

If I said "THE best" that was not accurate. I think I said "one of the best". Actually what I said was "you can't go wrong". Well apparently I was wrong on that count.

On a different thread I linked to a series of books by Emmanuel Velikovsky, (some) of whose conclusions I find incredibly likely, "one of the best" I have found on the subject. Does that make me a disciple of the Velikovsky doctrine?

I also just moments ago on this thread, linked to an article about the Lakota matriarchal life ways, which I find extremely useful for getting our heads on straight about gender roles. Does that make me Lakota?

I can't "tell you" which translation to use although I know I did suggest picking one up from your local mosque.

reply to post by frazzle

Here is your exact wording:

"But when it comes to a book written by man that details good life ways, you just about can't do better than the Qur'an"

So just about the best.

Anyways.

If you don't know which translation to give me, how do you know there is something wrong with the translations I used??

Here is a 4th translation:

[22:19] Here are two parties feuding with regard to their Lord. As for those who disbelieve, they will have clothes of fire tailored for them. Hellish liquid will be poured on top of their heads.

[22:20] It will cause their insides to melt, as well as their skins.

[22:21] They will be confined in iron pots.

[22:22] Whenever they try to exit such misery, they will be forced back in: "Taste the agony of burning."

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

Here is your exact wording:

"But when it comes to a book written by man that details good life ways, you just about can't do better than the Qur'an"

So just about the best.

Anyways.

If you don't know which translation to give me, how do you know there is something wrong with the translations I used??

Here is a religious forum where Muslims are discussing the best English translations of the Quran. Guess what? I used the ones they suggested. It appears you are the one with an agenda. Check it out yourself

I'm thinking about hiring you as my editor. You certainly have a fascination with every word I write and you seem driven to constantly critique them.

I know because I got my copy from the local mosque about 25 years ago and it reads quite differently. I like to hear it directly from the horse's mouth, so to speak. But it is curious, with as many translations as you claim to be out there, some of them radically anti-Islamic in terms of teachings, something seems to be out of kilter there.

reply to post by frazzle


If you say so. I read many forums and articles and wiki and aboutdotcom and yadda yadda and I continually see recommendation for the translations I used. Why can you not tell me what translation your Quran is?

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

If you say so. I read many forums and articles and wiki and aboutdotcom and yadda yadda and I continually see recommendation for the translations I used. Why can you not tell me what translation your Quran is?

Because I'd prefer it if you got it directly from the source.

Anti-Islam is almost a religion in its own right in the west and there are many who would happily pervert it for political reasons. Unfortunately, people will believe almost anything incriminating, from any source at all, if they have an already well developed bias against the grouping in question. Media is so good at that.

reply to post by frazzle

Because I'd prefer it if you got it directly from the source.

What do you literally mean by this? Is an English translation of the Quran not a good enough source? Lots of Muslims have no issue on forums I am reading recommending English translations to use..

You said yours reads very differently. Perhaps you're the one with the bad translation.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by frazzle

 

Because I'd prefer it if you got it directly from the source.

What do you literally mean by this? Is an English translation of the Quran not a good enough source? Lots of Muslims have no issue on forums I am reading recommending English translations to use..

You said yours reads very differently. Perhaps you're the one with the bad translation.

Whatever. I do know the people at the mosque made no attempt at anonymity as you'll find on online forums, along with a scattering of these guys. investmentwatchblog.com...

They gave me their book, which is in Arabic on one side of the page with the English translation on the other. I guess if you doubted the translation you could learn to speak Arabic. I don't know what else to suggest.

End of subject. I will not respond to any more silliness over it.