Local lawmakers lead push for prayer in schools bill

Buttonlip

beezzer
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

Prayer is not mandated if they have the freedom to leave.

If they are taking up valuable time, then my question remains, why can't they learn sex ed before or after school?

Everyone has sex. STDs and unwanted pregnancies are a huge issue and more so in places that do not have sex ed. Not everyone has the same religion and it really does not impact society if they do not learn about their religion. How many kids have you adopted?

One.

You?

Spiramirabilis
reply to post by Buttonlip

 

It is bad enough that at a public school a teacher can decide what god the whole class is going to pray to but to then ask children to ostracize him or herself by being that one kid that gets up and leaves is a terrible thing to do to schoolkids. Children can be sooo cruel.

I guess we'll have to see how far this gets

You know what sticklers those Constitutionalists can be about the letter of the law...when it suits them

:-)

Odd how often the pick and choose and cry about it, isn't it? They wear their tricorner hats and scream about the constitution but usually mistake freedom of speech for the right to not be criticized and pretend that separation of church and state business altogether.

Buttonlip

beezzer
Using tax dollars to talk about birth control is offensive to a catholic. Yet they do that.

You, of course, would be against using tax dollars to offend a religious person, wouldn't you?

No I do not care who is offended either way. This is about the good of society. Kids who not learn about birth control have babies they cannot care for. Kids who do not pray...well just do not pray. How are you trying to equate the two?

You don't care who is offended?

Good.

Then have prayer in the classroom and to hell with those that don't believe!

For sake of the debate, if the language was changed to what I suggested earlier, striking out the part in which the teacher may lead the prayer, are those opposed still in opposition of a "moment of silence" at the beginning of the school day?

beezzer
You don't care who is offended?

Did you already forget what you wrote or are you changing the context to alter the meaning of my response on purpose? My concern is not with people being offended as far as this matter goes. That is not my issue. Kids offend each other all the time. People get offended all the time. That is a different matter altogether. What I said was in direct response to what you said but now you made it somehow different. My concern here is not with personal offense.

Good.

Then have prayer in the classroom and to hell with those that don't believe!

Again, why should I be paying for prayer time for a select few in public schools when they can pray on their own all they want for free? Why should anyone be subjected to it in a place for learning, not worshiping?

I'm done here.

Spiramirabilis, I agree with you. Kids should be allowed to pray where, when and how they see fit. They should be able to leave the classroom if the need arises.

We should respect the rights of everyone.

As a conservative libertarian, free expression is important to me. I've written enough threads on the darned subject.

I doff my bunny hat in your direction.

reply to post by ArchAngel_X

ArchAngel_X
Who says your kid has to pray to God?

Who says your kid has to have a minute in class time to pray when they have ample time before and after school and during their break times? The weekend as well. So who says your kid can't do it in that time? Why *must* it be during the time they have school? Answer is, there's no reason.

If your kid doesn't get a minute during classtime to pray they have ample time to make up for it. Really now.

beezzer


One.

You?

Just one? Hardly a dent in the unwanted and uncared for baby population. I have adopted none, I advocate teaching kids how to use birth control and how easy it is to get pregnant since that is something they will all go through. I would really rather not have orphans all over the place, especially if people like you are only going to adopt one of them when there are millions that need a good home.

Buttonlip
Odd how often the pick and choose and cry about it, isn't it? They wear their tricorner hats and scream about the constitution but usually mistake freedom of speech for the right to not be criticized and pretend that separation of church and state business altogether.

And yet throughout this thread, those who proclaim "separation of church and state" have willfully ignored the complete Establishment Clause and the South Carolina Constitution equivalent.

The main question here is, does setting aside time in a public school, as a "moment of silence", constitute an "establishment of religion"; where no specific religion was ever referred to?

*School Mandated Prayer.

People really need to stop calling it school prayer, because it gives people impression that students are not being allowed to pray at all in schools. Sure it might be helpful for the Religious Right's agenda, it does paint a misleading picture.

That being said, is that seriously the entire bill? It's such a trivial thing to write an entire bill for, considering that students and teachers can already pray in school (Teacher just can't force it on other children much to the Religious Right's chagrin). I imagine this will probably stop the moment a Non-Christian decides to lead one of their own prayers, so it probably won't be an issue for long.

This is nothing more than pandering to fundamentalist Christians.

ownbestenemy
And yet throughout this thread, those who proclaim "separation of church and state" have willfully ignored the complete Establishment Clause and the South Carolina Constitution equivalent.

The main question here is, does setting aside time in a public school, as a "moment of silence", constitute an "establishment of religion"; where no specific religion was ever referred to?

It clearly states that the teacher gets to decide what prayer and who will be prayed to. It is not just a moment of silence. It is a teach lead prayer. See the difference?

Buttonlip

ownbestenemy
And yet throughout this thread, those who proclaim "separation of church and state" have willfully ignored the complete Establishment Clause and the South Carolina Constitution equivalent.

The main question here is, does setting aside time in a public school, as a "moment of silence", constitute an "establishment of religion"; where no specific religion was ever referred to?

It clearly states that the teacher gets to decide what prayer and who will be prayed to. It is not just a moment of silence. It is a teach lead prayer. See the difference?

I forget that people don't read threads...that which you bring up...I have already expressed my opposition to in the language. Read page one -- since I was the only one to actually grab the bill rather than have some news piece tell me how to think.

ETA: You also side-stepped the question. Is prayer specific to religion or is it something we equate to religion? If I pray for rain, am I invoking religious deities to hear my plea? As stated, I proposed that this bill would have no problems Constitutionally if it struck the part regarding the teacher leading the "prayer".

ownbestenemy
For sake of the debate, if the language was changed to what I suggested earlier, striking out the part in which the teacher may lead the prayer, are those opposed still in opposition of a "moment of silence" at the beginning of the school day?

There are already lots of moments of silence in schools. None need be state mandated.

Buttonlip

ownbestenemy
For sake of the debate, if the language was changed to what I suggested earlier, striking out the part in which the teacher may lead the prayer, are those opposed still in opposition of a "moment of silence" at the beginning of the school day?

There are already lots of moments of silence in schools. None need be state mandated.

Never mind then. People are wanting to debate, discuss and further our society. You just want it the way you want it and to hell with what others may want. I am not even sure why I even bother to broker a compromise as it is a bunch of 4 year old children in here fighting for a toy they won't play with until another wants it again.

ownbestenemy
Is prayer specific to religion or is it something we equate to religion? If I pray for rain, am I invoking religious deities to hear my plea?

I have a better question here. Of what value, educational value, does this provide to school time? And spare me the one minute nonsense because people have ample "minutes" outside of actual school time. What's the value? Do you support these politicians wasting tax payer money and time passing bills that absolutely add nothing of value to class time? Just to appease religious groups?

For all the howls about this federal government using tax payer money inappropriately, adding nothing of value to this country, you certainly seem defensive over what these politicians are doing. Interesting.

Southern Guardian
I have a better question here. Of what value, educational value, does this provide to school time? And spare me the one minute nonsense because people have ample "minutes" outside of actual school time. What's the value? Do you support these politicians wasting tax payer money and time passing bills that absolutely add nothing of value to class time? Just to appease religious groups?

What educational time does recess have? It is an activity to refocus is it not? Take a minute out of recess and or time between classes to accommodate this moment.

You see, the above is called discussion and the free exchange of ideas. It is how ideas become better. Apparently some of you are so entrenched that anything less than absolute denial of anything opposed to you, matters.

For all the howls about this federal government using tax payer money inappropriately, adding nothing of value to this country, you certainly seem defensive over what these politicians are doing. Interesting.

Please do highlight all of which you claim I have done. I am one of the few here who do not subscribe to partisan hacks or allow them to think for me. I call out all sides, including this thread in which I will yet again, say that the language proposed is not kosher, but you seem to want to put me in your cute little compartments. I deny you the ability to do so, because once again, you do not know me.

I am defensive of the idea, because I see no harm in having a moment of silence. I am critical of the idea if they have the teacher lead the prayer. What is so hard for your dense responses to figure that out?

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Quote of the day.

"You see, the above is called discussion and the free exchange of ideas. It is how ideas become better."

Brilliant!

Krazysh0t
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

The question remains though. Why is a moment of silence even necessary? It's not like someone just died and we want to reflect on that person. What does an atheist need to reflect on in the morning at the start of class? His homework that he didn't do the night before and is desperately trying to finish before the start of class? To me this just looks like a waste of time to placate the religious people who could have easily spent the minute or two saying a prayer while at home, on the bus/car ride to school, or before class. Why do we need to waste actual class time with this nonsense?

edit on 6-1-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

While not an athiest, but agnostic, I wake up early and reflect on the day I have just lived, and the one that is before me. I have done this for many years, and sometimes my best and brightest ideas come to me during that time, other times, there is nothing but the regrets of the whiskey I drank the night before. A moment of silence, I have no problem with, teacher led prayer, I am punching them in the throat.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


After all of what you typed, you still have not addressed the fundamental question I addressed to you here. What value will this serve in school time? This is a simple question that you yourself can't seem to answer. Not much unlike Beezzer who couldn't really explain exactly what kids would be learning during abstinence only classes. A moment of silence for people to worship, a class that teaches "abstinence", and yet neither of these appear to offer anything of educational value. So why are people pushing for them? Is it really based on the belief that they do offer educational value to kids? Or is it just a ways to cater to the sensitivities of a segment of the population? Do you have an answer?

Church, as I understand it - is for prayer

Then some people don't understand what religion is or what a prayer is.

It is a anytime,anyplace,anywhere a person is feeling froggie kind of thing.

IT is not nor has it ever been 'location specific'.

A temple isn't a place, or a book, or a building.

Least that is how I see it other opinions will vary with mileage.