Local lawmakers lead push for prayer in schools bill

reply to post by ownbestenemy

The term was a paraphrase of the whole of the Establishment Clause; not as it has been taken, as an absolute construct between the church and the state

Forced evolution. The main reason things got so secularly strict is because one group said that other groups couldn't exercise their religious freedom. Government is rightly not allowed to show preference so anything coming from the State had to become religion free otherwise it would have become a very clearly Christian government.

reply to post by beezzer


"Section 59-1-443. All schools shall provide for a minute of mandatory silence at the beginning of each school day, during which time the teacher may deliver a prayer, provided the school allows a student to leave the classroom if the student does not want to listen to or participate in the prayer."

During which time the teacher MAY deliver a prayer...?

It's designed to permit prayer - in the classroom. What kind of prayer? Not that that should matter. Prayer doesn't belong in school - not as part of actual schooling

C'mon Beezzer - I know you want there to be some kind of exception - but not everyone is Christian

Not everyone is any one religion - and some of us are not religious at all

This isn't workable in a public school, and neither should it be - even if it's intent is secular

Even - and if

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


may1
/mā/
verb

modal verb: may
1. expressing possibility.
"that may be true"
•used when admitting that something is so before making another, more important point.
"they may have been old-fashioned, but they were excellent teachers"
2. expressing permission.
"you may use a sling if you wish"
(bold, mine)

It is designed to allow prayer in school. It does not mandate that Christian prayer or any religious prayer be conducted.

What do you have against people conducting religious prayer in school?

Are you (please NO!) denying people their right to free expression? A bill is being presented that would allow a prayer, any prayer, or no prayer be conducted. It has set aside a specific time period that would indicate that there is a time and a place.

Now you are against the time mandate.

Would you be for the freedom to spontaneously pray at any time during the school period?

Would you allow students to freely hold prayer groups at anytime during the school day?

Would you allow prayer to be conducted at any other type of school venues?

reply to post by beezzer

Oh, criminentlies - the dictionary? Yes - the word may...suggests a loophole to me :-)

It does not mandate that Christian prayer or any religious prayer be conducted.

NO - but it makes it permissible - whereas it wasn't before

What do you have against people conducting religious prayer in school?

Not one thing actually, for an individual - quietly taking a moment to themselves. I spent enough time in school staring out the window wondering what it would be like to fly - I figure it all works out

As a mandated moment every day for every student - where the teacher in each and every classroom is free to decide whether or not there is to be a prayer - and then what that prayer is?

Not on your life

What part of this do you not understand?
In spite of the caveats in the last two sentences, if adopted the amendment would allow public officials, including teachers, to dictate how, when and where school children and others should pray, thus undermining one of the core values of the First Amendment: the complete freedom of religious conscience through the nonestablishment of religion. The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly said that officially organized prayer is coercive in a school environment, even when designated as "voluntary."

If a kid in class wants to pray - I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to if it doesn't disrupt the classroom or interfere with their education. I'm not sure how that would be determined. But, if you're suggesting that by not allowing this law to go through somebody is being denied their religious freedom - I'd like to see your argument :-)

Not mandating a moment where prayer may or may not happen is not the same thing as denying someone their right to freedom of expression

Unless (as I asked earlier on) there is someplace in the Bible that specifically states that God requires school children to pray for exactly one minute along with their fellow classmates each and every morning - in their classroom - with their teacher...

Why make it mandatory? (oh yeah - I forget - they're free to leave if they don't want to participate...)

Why can't kids do their praying before or after school?

Krazysh0t
What's so wrong with praying before you get to school? Are kids these days so strapped for time before making it to school they can't take a minute or two out of their morning to say a prayer? Why does it have to be in school? You are probably right OP, this is really just a way for religious people to parade their faith in front of non-believers. Again.

And why the push for so much public worship? According to my 4 bibles, God honors those that pray alone in private and admonished those that make a public show of it. I really wish Christians would actually take the time to read their bibles. I have. That is probably why I am not one of them.

beezzer
What do you have against people conducting religious prayer in school?

What is your argument for using tax dollars to pay for time for a teacher to hold a moment to have children do something they can choose to do on their own time? Sounds like big government and is fiscally irresponsible. Please correct me.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Prayer is not mandated if they have the freedom to leave.

If they are taking up valuable time, then my question remains, why can't they learn sex ed before or after school?

Buttonlip

beezzer
What do you have against people conducting religious prayer in school?

What is your argument for using tax dollars to pay for time for a teacher to hold a moment to have children do something they can choose to do on their own time? Sounds like big government and is fiscally irresponsible. Please correct me.

Using tax dollars to talk about birth control is offensive to a catholic. Yet they do that.

You, of course, would be against using tax dollars to offend a religious person, wouldn't you?

reply to post by beezzer

Prayer is not mandated if they have the freedom to leave.

There is no need to specifically go out of our way to create a situation in school where some students should have to physically leave if they feel uncomfortable

Why should some students and the teacher have the floor? That classroom is for everyone - and it's for educational purposes

Church, as I understand it - is for prayer

Those students that wish to pray should be the ones to leave - if in fact it really comes to that. Or have prayer time before school - outside of school. Or, attend a religious school

How is this a necessity - and not a want?

Special privileges?

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


On that, we do agree.

If a student feels the need to pray, he/she should be able to and be able to leave as he/she sees fit.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Loved this part: "Students who don't want to participate would be allowed to leave the classroom, the bill states." How bout the students who do want to participate be allowed to leave the classroom. How bout this. If you want to pray, raise your hand and ask permission to be educated about church and state. It's amazing that we live in a supposed nation of religious tolerance, but feel the need to legislate it. Does this mean that children that don't want to participate in the sunrise or noonday or afternoon prayer of the muslim faith should leave the room? What about the kid that's secretly praying that somehow the test is cancelled, should the smart, well prepared students leave the classroom until he's done? He could filibuster-pray the test away!

Who says your kid has to pray to God? If you or your kids don't want prayer in school and still want him or her to attend, just tell them to pray to Batman or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I'm non-religious but even I see this as kind of a non-issue; there are far more worthy topics to lend debate to other than this. It's just another distraction keeping people from the real decisions they should be making.

Spiramirabilis
reply to post by beezzer

 

"Section 59-1-443. All schools shall provide for a minute of mandatory silence at the beginning of each school day, during which time the teacher may deliver a prayer, provided the school allows a student to leave the classroom if the student does not want to listen to or participate in the prayer."

This part right here is the problem for me
"provided the school allows a student to leave the classroom if the student does not want to listen to or participate in the prayer"

It is bad enough that at a public school a teacher can decide what god the whole class is going to pray to but to then ask children to ostracize him or herself by being that one kid that gets up and leaves is a terrible thing to do to schoolkids. Children can be sooo cruel.

ArchAngel_X
Who says your kid has to pray to God? If you or your kids don't want prayer in school and still want him or her to attend, just tell them to pray to Batman or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I'm non-religious but even I see this as kind of a non-issue; there are far more worthy topics to lend debate to other than this. It's just another distraction keeping people from the real decisions they should be making.

Why should a child in any school have to pray to anything and why should I be forced to pay for it?

Buttonlip

Spiramirabilis
reply to post by beezzer

 

"Section 59-1-443. All schools shall provide for a minute of mandatory silence at the beginning of each school day, during which time the teacher may deliver a prayer, provided the school allows a student to leave the classroom if the student does not want to listen to or participate in the prayer."

This part right here is the problem for me
"provided the school allows a student to leave the classroom if the student does not want to listen to or participate in the prayer"

It is bad enough that at a public school a teacher can decide what god the whole class is going to pray to but to then ask children to ostracize him or herself by being that one kid that gets up and leaves is a terrible thing to do to schoolkids. Children can be sooo cruel.

So can posters on the internet.

I agree, however.

I think a better stipulation would be to allow students to pray as they feel they need to. Away from supervision. As long as they are not punished by exercising their freedom of expression.

Buttonlip

ArchAngel_X
Who says your kid has to pray to God? If you or your kids don't want prayer in school and still want him or her to attend, just tell them to pray to Batman or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I'm non-religious but even I see this as kind of a non-issue; there are far more worthy topics to lend debate to other than this. It's just another distraction keeping people from the real decisions they should be making.

Why should a child in any school have to pray to anything and why should I be forced to pay for it?

Yet, if my child were catholic, he would be subjected to issues that went against the catholic tenet of birth control.

Yet that continues.

And I pay for it.

beezzer
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

Prayer is not mandated if they have the freedom to leave.

If they are taking up valuable time, then my question remains, why can't they learn sex ed before or after school?

Everyone has sex. STDs and unwanted pregnancies are a huge issue and more so in places that do not have sex ed. Not everyone has the same religion and it really does not impact society if they do not learn about their religion. How many kids have you adopted?

reply to post by Buttonlip

It is bad enough that at a public school a teacher can decide what god the whole class is going to pray to but to then ask children to ostracize him or herself by being that one kid that gets up and leaves is a terrible thing to do to schoolkids. Children can be sooo cruel.

I guess we'll have to see how far this gets

You know what sticklers those Constitutionalists can be about the letter of the law...when it suits them

:-)

beezzer
Using tax dollars to talk about birth control is offensive to a catholic. Yet they do that.

You, of course, would be against using tax dollars to offend a religious person, wouldn't you?

No I do not care who is offended either way. This is about the good of society. Kids who not learn about birth control have babies they cannot care for. Kids who do not pray...well just do not pray. How are you trying to equate the two?

beezzer
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

On that, we do agree.

If a student feels the need to pray, he/she should be able to and be able to leave as he/she sees fit.

That is how it already is. There is not one school in the entire country that forbids any child from praying. Why the need to carve out a special exception the tax dime to let a select few force others to either listen to their prayer or be that kid that leaves the room that mommy and daddy wont let the other kids play with anymore because he or she is different in a bad way?