Controversy Over 5th-Grader’s Religion Speech

reply to post by WilsonWilson


People always need somebody or some entity to point the finger at,

unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) the Servants of Christ are more often than not the ones who get pointed at, and for the most part, we are more than happy to bear the burden

for it is written:

Psalm 44:20 If we had forgotten the name of our God,
Or stretched out our hands to a foreign god,
21 Would not God search this out?
For He knows the secrets of the heart.
22 Yet for Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Jeremiah 15:15
LORD, you understand; remember me and care for me. Avenge me on my persecutors. You are long-suffering--do not take me away; think of how I suffer reproach for your sake.

Matthew 5:11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

God bless

reply to post by NavyDoc

Separation of church and state. We shouldn't be mentioning religion in schools--or is it only cool to have anti religion in schools but not pro religion in schools?

Is there a difference between teaching religion in school - or teaching about religion in school?

I think there is :-)

The world is full of religion - kinda pointless to have a history class that can't include it

Did you not have a world religions class? They don't use a religion as an explanation for our world, or instruct kids to understand this world through the eyes of only one religion - they instead teach that religion is a part of our world, and then go on to explain the various religions...

Seems simple enough

:-)

reply to post by Eryiedes


I find it interesting that people aren't just as upset about the mass murder excuse - as if kids don't know anything about it

Can you teach history without including either killing or religion?

Silly teacher :-)

Bet she thought she'd get away with it too

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

If a student pulled a Bible out in any class, to note anything positive contained within? He'd be risking suspension if not more, depending on past history...with a Teacher getting the same or worse if it were allowed to continue. Whether it should be that way or not, isn't my focus...but it IS that way, and headlines carry it daily from around the nation.

Yes - if he pulled it out of The Bible in order to promote The Bible

I'd like to think that an argument that was pro-religion in general, neutral terms would be accepted. Who knows these days - I'm sure many will want to cry foul ahead of time, but since that isn't what happened at this school, there's no way to know for sure

Anyhow, he didn't attack one religion - or promote a specific religion over another - he wasn't proselytizing or targeting - his premise is that religion has been used to do a lot of damage in this world

How is this wrong? How is this bad?

Don't take my word for it - here you go :-)

In the Name of Religion, written by Zachary Golob-Drake

The world’s major religions all have messages about coexisting. But oftentimes people have found a way to bend that rule; sometimes people even use religion as an excuse to take each other’s lives. The three major religions on the earth include the Eastern religions, Islam, and Christianity. About one billion people live by the Eastern religions; about 1.4 billion are Muslim; and about 2.3 billion are Christians. Religious differences have always sparked conflict, even leading to warfare and mass murder.

Well, I'd have to say that that is a smart kid. I wouldn't expect a statement from a kid that age. Maybe he has some help from parents, but then again maybe not. Nevertheless, it is indeed true that religion as a whole has been one of the leading causes of human casualties. And aside from deaths, it also has carried out many other atrocities over the years. And there are far to many examples to give regarding that. Many different creeds of people have fought against each other simply because they worship a different image of god from their counterparts.

And I suppose you could just say that religion has just been a scapegoat from the ruling classes to rile up the rest of the people. And religion is the perfect tool to use against people. There are very few buttons you can push to people that will really get them upset. And brings up or disproving their religion is one of the better ways to doing that. Not to mention you can manipulate religious people somewhat easily. Especially if they have a very, very strong faith. Because that can become dangerous under the right circumstances.

The images of god man has created is very dangerous. Or has the potential to become dangerous. And since humans are clearly very flawed and fallible, your going to have people becoming religious crusaders thinking that what their doing is what god wants them to do. But in fact, it's not what god wants them to do. It's more what their IMAGE of god wants them to do. And typically god is just a reflection of the believer. Not to say that some sort of higher power isn't there. But, it does seem like peoples alter ego, or their image of god, is pushing them to fulfill their own subconscious desires. And an actual god isn't. Like I said, their just being influenced by a shallow and fake god that is basically just in their own mind. And if there truly is a actual god, it is not what is influencing them in reality.

So in closing, I agree that religion has been a tool that has been manipulated to serve the purpose of certain people. But to be fair, many other things have been used to justify such actions. Although it has been a more major factor over the years, that's for sure.

FraternitasSaturni
reply to post by iRoyalty

 

Yea... how can your parents support that people? I agree... how the hell can they? How can one be religious after all that has been done in the name of religion?

Its true!!! Why can the kid feel the same way? I dont have any problems in waking the kids up... in fact I have more issues with having this religious bs being carried on decade after decade and believe me "let kids be kids" must be the last resort if I ever heard one... no. They actually have to learn at a young age that all that their parents have been fed... is wrong. Is non existent. Only brought pain and misery to this world and people died and still die they most painful and excruciating deaths at the hands of the most fanatic and psychotic, sick, depraved, sadistic people this world has ever seen... all in the name of... their nonexistent, invisible, inaudible, improvable, never seen, never heard, never present... so called... GODS.

lol

Seriously... what are you afraid of? hm?

I don't disagree with you, just 10 years old? I was still waiting for my first boner then, let alone being taught about everything described above... You can't subject a large group of kids to that. Chances are, one kids gets mega upset, cries to parents, parents wonder wtf happened with letting their kids hear about that.

Religious violence should be taught at a GCSE level (not sure what that is to you guys in the states) which starts at 15, that way you can guarantee that everyone is old enough and can put it into a context that isn't going to %$*! them up!

Besides,
If you brought your kids up right in the first place they should have been able to work it out for themselves and see through the BS like the kid who did the speech did.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

I'd like to think that an argument that was pro-religion in general, neutral terms would be accepted. Who knows these days - I'm sure many will want to cry foul ahead of time, but since that isn't what happened at this school, there's no way to know for sure

I'm sorry but as much as we agree on some things, and respectfully disagree on others...this one I'm just dug in with absolutely no give left on.

When my son can't even call Christmas Break, Christmas Break without being corrected at school and (gasp) Various schools around the nation won't even permit the ornaments of the season for the ..KINDA..wildly out there connection to Christianity as the core of it all?

Nope.. I'm not even going to begin to creatively hunt for ways the anti-religion position can be shoe-horned in while the pro- side is blocked by law and intimidation from the top down in the schools. It merely started when I was in...and it's almost successfully removed anything fun or decent from all the Holidays at this point.

The mere acknowledgement that some people out there..(Ahem..the vast numerical majority of the world population) consider some form of creation is strictly forbidden to even mention in a school in passing ...and very public fights had over that issue.

In that environment? No... I don't see, even a little, where the Anti-Religion side gets exception because it's the Anti- side of what is so thoroughly removed and scrubbed at every possible level.

Have both.......or have none. Anything in between is advocacy of position, one way or the other, and Government isn't in that business for Religious Faith. For, or against.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

I'd like to think that an argument that was pro-religion in general, neutral terms would be accepted. Who knows these days - I'm sure many will want to cry foul ahead of time, but since that isn't what happened at this school, there's no way to know for sure

When my son can't even call Christmas Break, Christmas Break without being corrected at school and (gasp) Various schools around the nation won't even permit the ornaments of the season for the ..KINDA..wildly out there connection to Christianity as the core of it all?

Nope.. I'm not even going to begin to creatively hunt for ways the anti-religion position can be shoe-horned in while the pro- side is blocked by law and intimidation from the top down in the schools. It merely started when I was in...and it's almost successfully removed anything fun or decent from all the Holidays at this point.

This is TiC......save for witches day. Not really bad mouthing them here. Only pointing out and lest we forget that the dark side gets a full unfettered wallowing in public schools around the country during the Halloween week. Witches, demons, warlocks, the dead and the craft are on full display and our kids are encourage to dig in.

Spiramirabilis
reply to post by Eryiedes

 

I find it interesting that people aren't just as upset about the mass murder excuse - as if kids don't know anything about it

Can you teach history without including either killing or religion?

Silly teacher :-)

The typical administrative psychobabble. Drop it like a bomb and the sheep scatter, scratch their heads....wtf? And a heck of a way to bomb out a 5th graders even though his intent was to bring the thing into some scrutiny. It leaves the unwearied with the impression that the boy was promoting mass murder but on the contrary was promoting the Golden Rule.

In my opinion that's why the thing was caned.

Eryiedes

brandiwine14
Atheists cry foul when kids, parents, teachers tell others about religion but whine when one of their kids is told not to spread Ahteism.

Apparently many countries don't have the same problem discussing religion that America does.
If you prefer to think of your inflexibility as a strength I won't stop you...but I won't take you seriously either.

-Peace-

edit on 17-12-2013 by Eryiedes because: Typo

america doesn't have a problem discussing religion as much as your godless country does, it seems, civilly,
and if you think a spineless worm is as strong as an eagle, keep your eyes open for the early bird.

peace.

Logarock

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

I'd like to think that an argument that was pro-religion in general, neutral terms would be accepted. Who knows these days - I'm sure many will want to cry foul ahead of time, but since that isn't what happened at this school, there's no way to know for sure

When my son can't even call Christmas Break, Christmas Break without being corrected at school and (gasp) Various schools around the nation won't even permit the ornaments of the season for the ..KINDA..wildly out there connection to Christianity as the core of it all?

Nope.. I'm not even going to begin to creatively hunt for ways the anti-religion position can be shoe-horned in while the pro- side is blocked by law and intimidation from the top down in the schools. It merely started when I was in...and it's almost successfully removed anything fun or decent from all the Holidays at this point.

This is TiC......save for witches day. Not really bad mouthing them here. Only pointing out and lest we forget that the dark side gets a full unfettered wallowing in public schools around the country during the Halloween week. Witches, demons, warlocks, the dead and the craft are on full display and our kids are encourage to dig in.

yeah cept no cowboy or indian costumes, right?

no sushi chefs or geisha's, either.

it's racist.

no snow white and dwarfs,
no simba, might offend peta.

tsingtao
america doesn't have a problem discussing religion as much as your godless country does, it seems, civilly,
and if you think a spineless worm is as strong as an eagle, keep your eyes open for the early bird.

Guess I struck a nerve.

-Peace-

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Is it possible that you misunderstood what I said - even though it's right in front of you?

I'd like to think that an argument that was pro-religion in general, neutral terms would be accepted. Who knows these days - I'm sure many will want to cry foul ahead of time, but since that isn't what happened at this school, there's no way to know for sure

As I said - this isn't what happened - the story isn't about a student that wrote an essay about the good religion does in this world. But, as I also said - it could have been - as well as should have been. Nothing wrong with discussing religion - promoting a religion is different

The separation of religion and government is meant to prevent having one religion rule over everybody. This is the simplest way to explain it, and most religious people get it. There was a time when it wasn't as much an issue (well, sorta) because there weren't as many people to contest just one religion presiding over everyone or taking precedent

Our constitution is meant to be inclusive - not exclusive

His essay wasn't an attack on anyone in particular - it was a well thought out and nicely written observation - something we should be encouraging

If a student had written one arguing the opposite, that religion is a good thing, I'd like to think (one more time, in case you missed it) that it would be as well received as this one was

So - do you honestly mean to tell me that you don't see the difference?

Critical thinking and the ability to express our thinking - useful skills

Should we now demand that our schools pretend that religion doesn't exist in our world as far as education goes?

Out of spite is it?

This is absolutely ridiculous. It seems that this kid is one of the only people that has the right idea in current society.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


This is what I've been getting at. Why is everyone confusing proselytizing religion or atheism with discussing how religion has impacted the world? Just because I mention the word religion, doesn't mean that I am discussing my views on it or if you should believe it or not. This is a bad result of the PC crowd trying to push their agenda. It is totally possible to discuss religion objectively in a historical context, and to ignore it when speaking about history does a huge disservice to the students.

reply to post by Eryiedes

In some strange way he is also saying that even science and think tanks take up the same cause to eliminate peoples all around the world ..Think of how much money and energy is spent by science to create ways of devastating populations and countries .. Do the math and I would almost think that acidemia and scientist have come up with bigger better ways than religion ..man is not a pretty picture ...God help us ..

reply to post by Krazysh0t

I think we agree - and disagree maybe a little

This is a bad result of the PC crowd trying to push their agenda.

Political Correctness has come to mean so many different things to so many different people now, it's difficult to have a conversation about it without pissing people off

But one thing is for sure - people who are accustomed to having everything their way, even if it's at the expense or exclusion of others, are likely to be angry if anybody (and that is a large list right there) suggests or insists that things need to change. Even Steven is not popular. Why, I'm pretty sure that that must be a socialist idea right there

And away we go :-)

To be fair - I don't blame them. Anger is obviously going to be to be a natural response to the implied message that there's something wrong with them. The only thing is - that's not the obvious intended message. And nobody likes being told that the way things always were needs to change. People hate change

The Constitution may not have originally been intended to include everybody - or, maybe it was. I wasn't there. People can argue about that forever I suppose - but, whatever...if you love it and mean to defend it, you gotta be honest about what it says:

"Separation of church and state" (sometimes "wall of separation between church and state") is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson and others expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. The phrase has since been repeatedly used by the Supreme Court of the United States. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...."

When we get to a point where things begin to change (demographically let's just say) maybe that idea becomes a little bit uncomfortable. For some - not all

So - political correctness... :-) Yeah - what a pain in the ass that whole things is

It is totally possible to discuss religion objectively in a historical context, and to ignore it when speaking about history does a huge disservice to the students.

Absolutely. The humans haven't existed separately from their religions - there isn't any history without it

reply to post by Eryiedes


I find it absolutely abhorrent that a young person who displays geopolitical understanding, empathy with his fellow human beings, an awareness of how easily propagandist publication can skew an issue, and the brass balls, never mind the ability to speak publicly about it, can be marginalised like this in an educational setting.

A persons age does NOT have any bearing on whether or not they ought to be delivering talks on serious, emotive issues. From the death penalty, to war, famine, waste and it's effects, politics and crime, it is VITAL now more than ever, that when a young person displays understanding of these things, that they be allowed to share their understanding with others of their age group, and that they be allowed to develop that understanding without impediment.

Further more, it is important that thinking independently and intelligently about these matters, be reinforced as a good habit, not a bad one. Far too often a person reaches quite an advanced age, without being made aware of, or being able to psychologically process the truth on a given, divisive topic. That this young person not only formed his own opinion, but was able to summon together a piece of factual writing to lay it out, is to be applauded. Perhaps if his current school are incapable of accepting this, they ought to ensure that this young person be sent to a school where kids who display a significant gift of intellect, are actually nourished, rather than having their ideas shot to ribbons over a matter of diplomacy?

Eryiedes

tsingtao
america doesn't have a problem discussing religion as much as your godless country does, it seems, civilly,
and if you think a spineless worm is as strong as an eagle, keep your eyes open for the early bird.

Guess I struck a nerve.

-Peace-

naw, you just exposed your backside.

civility is the operative word.

you come across from the emotional side of things. like your own views and opinions.

nothing to do with facts, just rudeness.

the kids speech was out of order. let him save and work on it till he uses it as his thesis.
lol.

reply to post by TrueBrit


What else can I say except:

"I couldn't have put it better myself."

-Peace-