Why I Think God Warned us About Conservatives and Capitalism.

iRoyalty

SisyphusRide
the topic title is about evil conservatives...

OK... already stated that the title was a bad choice... My whole point of this is the question I've asked both of you about 6 times now... Answer it, or I will take your silence as my answer and leave it at that.

As for forcing Christian doctrine in schools, how is that better than communism?? I'm pretty sure God doesn't want his word to be forced onto people, otherwise he wouldn't have given us free will... That isn't very Christian of you...

edit on 16-12-2013 by iRoyalty because: (no reason given)

the United States of America... the first place of its kind in all of history... where Liberty is a blessing from God the creator.

founded on Christian principals...

TheWrightWing

MamaJ
The fact that our "Father" gave in the beginning ( life.. spirit) and continues to give is why we are also supposed to be a giver at heart. This is why Jesus says that if a man asks for something to give it to him. Being a giver is a selfless act and one that Jesus portrays over and over in His- Story.

Giving is voluntary, having your property removed by force and penalty of law is not giving, an important difference.

Allowing oneself to be looted, too, does not qualify as giving.

Removing property from another person or voting for a legal system which will do it for you (under the mistaken idea that you have a right to other peoples property) is nothing at all like "asking for something".

Voluntary charity is in fact giving, and a good thing.

Giving is voluntary. I didn't say it wasn't did I? Having property taken by a state or federal law could have it's own thread. I am a Realtor so I can relate to the laws of real estate but not in this context or thread.

Allowing yourself to be robbed is definitely an extreme form of "giving" however to each his own and to his own a good karma. Being concerned with your own actions and intent and is where it's at.

Giving to charities is good, especially if the intent is good. If you give with an intent of self gratification and gloating over ones self then it's not so good. The heart needs to be sincere with giving.

iRoyalty

Ok so having your property forcibly removed by the rich business and banks is fine when it's done by law? But not the other way around?

I don't recall anyone suggesting that as being 'fine'. Do you?

reply to post by iRoyalty


I try. lol Thank you.

I do find so much truth, yet heartache within the OP.

It truly saddens me the way we have hardened the heart for the sake of self gratification. It's almost a norm and acceptable, isn't it? We are truly powerless. No matter who "we vote it", they are all the same. They work for the ones with the most money. The ones with the most can sell an idea so quick and it doesn't matter if it messes with the Earth, our fellow man, the Universe, and so on.

I rely on Karma... with each cause there is an effect.

Eventually this terrible system will fall apart.

reply to post by TheWrightWing


No I don't, but you seem to defend the wealth that big business have gain, usually not without screwing people over here and there but I haven't heard you once defend people who get screwed over by them. Don't take anything I say as aggressive by the way, it's not my style. I'm always genuinely interesting in opinions. I would appreciate if you did me the same kindness.

SisyphusRide

iRoyalty

SisyphusRide
the topic title is about evil conservatives...

OK... already stated that the title was a bad choice... My whole point of this is the question I've asked both of you about 6 times now... Answer it, or I will take your silence as my answer and leave it at that.

As for forcing Christian doctrine in schools, how is that better than communism?? I'm pretty sure God doesn't want his word to be forced onto people, otherwise he wouldn't have given us free will... That isn't very Christian of you...

edit on 16-12-2013 by iRoyalty because: (no reason given)

the United States of America... the first place of its kind in all of history... where Liberty is a blessing from God the creator.

founded on Christian principals...

But my point is. That the United States has become a very un-christian system. Liberty has become scarce and greed rampant.

You still have not answered my question, so I believe I have made my point.

MamaJ
reply to post by iRoyalty

 

I rely on Karma... with each cause there is an effect.

Very similar to my own, Metta to you

iRoyalty

No I don't, but you seem to defend the wealth that big business have gain, usually not without screwing people over here and there but I haven't heard you once defend people who get screwed over by them. Don't take anything I say as aggressive by the way, it's not my style. I'm always generally interesting in opinions. I would appreciate if you did me the same kindness.

Again, based on nothing I've ever said.

Had I declared: The evil rich should have their wealth removed and given to the needy for the greater good!

Would that have been seen as not defending big business?

The point is, once again: Wealth will not gain anyone entrance into heaven.

The Christ offered no opinion on the subject of economic systems.

Earning wealth is rarely dependent on "screwing over" anyone, unless you count tax-fattened politicians who enrich themselves from the every growing dependency of others.

Being a successful person is a fulfillment of the potential of being a person and the opposite of squandering ones life. This is not an evil thing, it is a good thing.

As is Charity, which is not possible without creating wealth.

reply to post by TheWrightWing


Hooray! This is more of what I wanted for you! Thank you lol

I understand he didn't bother himself with economic issues and just dealt with helping those who needed him.

I feel like the system we have creates more people who would be in need of Jesus if he were around.

Also he did get involved, even if it was in-directly, he was hunted down by the ruling class, defied their religion and threw their way of life up in the air! Sounds like a revolutionary and he was, he was so revolutionary that he started a religion that has lasted 2000 years.

reply to post by TheWrightWing


If Jesus asked his followers to give up everything they have and or owned and walk with him would you consider that an idea of how he would have judged an economic system of taking from the people and not giving back to the people? Taxing people left and right for this, that and the other?

Our leaders will call them self Christians, they will ask and or thank God for the blessings, yet, will take and take and take for self gratification purposes to amend or pass a law that is not good for their fellow man or perhaps Planet they live on.

This is what I think the OP is conveying. Its simple. It aint right.

reply to post by MamaJ


I think we've kind of hit a brick wall here lol

MamaJ
reply to post by TheWrightWing

 

If Jesus asked his followers to give up everything they have and or owned and walk with him

No, he did not. He suggested that to an individual he had a conversation with.

Try re-reading that verse once again.

reply to post by TheWrightWing


Yes but every story in the bible has a purpose. It is a book to teach on morals, they didn't put that story in there just because that was what was right for that one dude. No, everything in the bible is purposefully put there.

Now he was a holy man and a good man, all he had was a lot of wealth and possessions. Jesus said all he needed to gain salvation was to give these up and follow him.

The entire OP as well as the entirety of socialism can be debunked in one sentence:

Forced Altruism is no altruism at all, its an evil mockery of altruism and has proven destructive to society over and over again.

Enough said.

iRoyalty
reply to post by TheWrightWing

 

Yes but every story in the bible has a purpose. It is a book to teach on morals, they didn't put that story in there just because that was what was right for that one dude. No, everything in the bible is purposefully put there.

Now he was a holy man and a good man, all he had was a lot of wealth and possessions. Jesus said all he needed to gain salvation was to give these up and follow him.

It was a conversation between the Christ and a man, Christs response to him was meant for him and not a condition of faith for all humans.

I find that in spite of the clarity of the Biblical text, there are those who continue to insist on 'misunderstanding' the texts, the same sort of folks who seem driven by an agenda.

Generally speaking, these are the same sort who declare "Government must to what Jesus "wanted!" to help the poor!"

Which are the first sort of people to shriek about "Separation of Church and State!"

reply to post by Skyfloating


I'm not trying to prove Jesus was a communist, I'm trying to ask people if they think Jesus would agree with this Capitalist system, which favours the greedy and shuns the poor. Many socialist revolutionaries have existed because they came from working class backgrounds and want a fairer wage for the poor people in their societies.

I agree it has failed in all instances where it has been attempted, I only want to know the answer to one question. Would Jesus approve of the state of Capitalism and why?

TheWrightWing

iRoyalty
reply to post by TheWrightWing

 

Yes but every story in the bible has a purpose. It is a book to teach on morals, they didn't put that story in there just because that was what was right for that one dude. No, everything in the bible is purposefully put there.

Now he was a holy man and a good man, all he had was a lot of wealth and possessions. Jesus said all he needed to gain salvation was to give these up and follow him.

It was a conversation between the Christ and a man, Christs response to him was meant for him and not a condition of faith for all humans.

I find that in spite of the clarity of the Biblical text, there are those who continue to insist on 'misunderstanding' the texts, the same sort of folks who seem driven by an agenda.

Generally speaking, these are the same sort who declare "Government must to what Jesus "wanted!" to help the poor!"

Which are the first sort of people to shriek about "Separation of Church and State!"

Yeah I'm not overly fond of those guys either...

I just don't think they would put it in a holy book if it has no meaning what so ever, that it was just a chat Jesus had one day. Otherwise, where's the story where Jesus goes to the shops to buy some bread? And the one where he told old lady Palmer that her garden looks lovely? See my point?

iRoyalty


I agree it has failed in all instances where it has been attempted, I only want to know the answer to one question. Would Jesus approve of the state of Capitalism and why?

You wonder why so many Christians also embrace Capitalism although Jesus appeared to be siding with the poor. Your conception and definition of Capitalism then, is apparently that they do not side with the poor. That however, is not the self-definition of a Capitalist but rather an anti-capitalist angle.

The Christian embrace of Capitalism is founded more on the Old Testament than the New Testament. In those books the principles of Property, Business, Exchange, Value, Money, Wealth, etc. were laid out. With those principles many throughout the ages have done well for themselves, their families and communities. Having viewed the results of Capitalist thought for thousands of years, Christians embraced that which bears good fruit...as Jesus taught them to.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Dude this is the kind of answer I was looking for! Seven pages of going through back and forth and thank the Lord () you have finally given me a valid answer on the actual question in my mind!!!

I actually wouldn't say I am anti-capitalist. I am anti-wherever the hell we have now, do you think that these early structures for Capitalism in the old testament are still valid for the form of capitalism we have today? In regards to all the things businesses and banks do to the working and lower middle class citizens?

iRoyalty

I actually wouldn't say I am anti-capitalist. I am anti-wherever the hell we have now, do you think that these early structures for Capitalism in the old testament are still valid for the form of capitalism we have today? In regards to all the things businesses and banks do to the working and lower middle class citizens?

If you are not anti-capitalist as in "anti Business" perhaps you are anti-corporatist or anti-consumerist or anti-bank-misdeeds. There are certainly dark variations of capitalism...as there are dark variations of anything.

You say you are "anti" whatever we have today. But keep in mind that we`re not actually doing THAT bad in the grand scheme of things. What is considered poor today would have been seen as rich just 100 years ago. 300 years a go only the super-super-super-rich-power-elite could afford toilets. Today, every welfare-recipient has a TV, a cellphone and a car.

Thats not to say we couldnt be doing much better.