China to one-up the U.S. by mining the Moon!

For a long time China did indeed copy everything. Half a century of automaton indoctrination through communism isn't exactly a breeding ground for creativity.

But a knowledgeable person on China - she's a writer / translator and has lived in and speaks fluent Mandarin (interview can be heard here) - spoke of how when the Chinese became cognisant of this lack of creativity on their part, they sent a delegation to the U.S. etc to find out what was so different about how creative people lived and grew up in the West, what their influences were and what could possibly explain their own deficiency in his faculty.

What they found was that that most Western creative thinkers grew up with science fiction as a key component of their intellectual diet. Science fiction, at the time, was illegal in China and therefore this discrepancy was felt to account for (or at least be one of the contributing factors to) Chinese peoples' lack of innovation. Suffice to say, after discovering this anomaly, the Chinese adopted sci-fi story-telling in their own culture.

As such, people should be weary about using the stereotypical Chinese predilection for stealing others' ideas for basis to treat them like they haven't a creative bone in their billion+ bodies. Don't forget all the past innovations we have to thank China for: the loom, the bellows, gun powder..., to name only three. So, it's not as if this creative spark cannot be reignited (if it hasn't been already).

SasquatchHunter

justwokeup
reply to post by SasquatchHunter

 

I had hoped to end the discussion politely. Your sarcasm and smug condescension is unwarranted.

I do not believe i ever invoked magic or mysticism. I simply do not write off the possibility that there is much more we can learn and more we can do with what we learn.

You rule out the possibility of success and even the worth of the effort. Thats a fundamental difference in outlook that no amount of discussion will bridge. You see my vision of humanities future as worthless fantasy and I see yours as one of futile despair.

Your vision for humanity is science fiction. The only feasible way to traverse the universe as Human is to attain light speed capabilities. Forgetting all the problems like lightspeed requires things to have 0 mass and infinite energy. ENERGY. That type of energy would power everything in America for 100 years or something. The worlds problems would already be solved with infinite energy sources! If you can run a car forever on the fumes of a gallon of gas what is the problem that we need resources from other planets?

Your talking about averting the extinction of the human race. Stars burn out. One day the universe will burn out and that's the end.

If somehow it becomes economically viable to colonize planets or mine for resources. We have already solved the problem for the solution youre seeking.

How many things do we do now, that was considered science fiction? You keep on talking about light speed, as if thats the only way we could travel to reach the stars. Thats not trues. You have many scientists talking about wormholes, moving time and space (not the space ship) Yes, just theories, but everything starts as a theory.

Who would have thought that parallel universes could actually be possible, but here we are, with many physicist believing that this could be the case.

"With our partners, Weyland Industries, we can together, build a better world"

They sure don't need to go to the moon to do that - they're doing it by mining the hell out of bit coins here on Earth lol.

Jay-morris
reply to post by SasquatchHunter

 

What is there for human bodies in outterspace? Death! NO HUMAN WILL EVER VISIT ANOTHER SOLAR SYSTEM IT IS NOT POSSIBLE AS HUMAN BEINGS. Everything we know about science tells us that.

WOW! If everyone thought like you, we would still be in the dark ages. Science is changing all the time, with new ideas and theories on space travel. To say its impossible, just because "science" tells us that now, is a bit ignorant, considering how primitive we are when it comes to space technology and what we know. Hence the reason why we hear theories all the time.

Can you show me what theories exist, that transport humans from Earth to our suns closest neighbor at 4.2ly
That's 28,216,799,200,000miles away. That's 28trillion miles its a really big number. Let's start our travel speed at

1million/mph = 3,200 years flight. Hmm that's not gonna work at all.
10million/mph = 321 years. That doesn't seem reasonable.
30million/mph = 107 years now were talking just enough time to get there and die.

Its simple math anyone can understand the problem.

To achieve these speeds would require vast amounts of energy, it would also require the same amount of energy to stop at your destination.

Wormholes stargates. OK this is science fiction. Parallel universe and string theory its possible but that change our situation one bit we can never get to these destination s ever. If were now saying we can bend space and time at our will we have solved all the problems of Earth.

reply to post by SasquatchHunter


We can understand the problem. Nobody here doubts the immensity of the proposition or the fact its beyond us at our current stage of development. We just don't believe the appropriate response is "impossible, book closed, stop thinking about it".

If nobody ever reached for the impossible or the inspirational there would be little progress.

In the mean time we should go where we can go, perfect the technology necessary for tolerably fast travel within the solar system at least. In the first instance that means probably nuclear thermal, something we could have done a long time ago if the political will was there.

justwokeup
reply to post by SasquatchHunter

 

We can understand the problem. Nobody here doubts the immensity of the proposition or the fact its beyond us at our current stage of development. We just don't believe the appropriate response is "impossible, book closed, stop thinking about it".

If nobody ever reached for the impossible or the inspirational there would be little progress.

In the mean time we should go where we can go, perfect the technology necessary for tolerably fast travel within the solar system at least. In the first instance that means probably nuclear thermal, something we could have done a long time ago if the political will was there.

No I don't think you or most of the people demanding Moon and Mars colonies and space trips to Proxima understand the full problems. Just like you say "at our current stage" like its somehow possible in the future just because hey its the future anything can happen! I'm all for exploring the universe but to do anything of the things people are suggesting is impossible and to do them we would have to solve Earths problems first.

You would have to strap 10,000,000 nuclear rockets and fire at our closest solar neighbor and it would still take thousands of years to get there.

This theoretical technology would still require thousands of rockets and thousands of years. For what????????

We are going where we can go. Were sending out probes and rovers. Its excessively expensive and dangerous sending people into space. Just to say look what we can do look what we can do!

The fastest probe ever went 38k mph. Were not going anywhere ever. Neither are any of those aliens stuck trillions of miles away from their neighbors.

Look guys, China might mine the moon and provide the planet with a source of viable power!

...thread turns into a border pissing match and arguments about pollution.

*grabs pepsi*
*fssst..fizzz..glug glug glug glug*
*tosses empty bottle into river*

ahh well.. if ya can't beat 'em...

Why is anyone here arguing about travelling The Universe when the topic is China on The Moon?

The differences between putting people on the Moon, and going another solar system is like the difference between a child's cardboard box with wheels drawn on it, and flying a fighter jet.
Big difference.

The only other "planet" we've set feet on is our own moon.
Roughly HALF the machines we try sending to Mars fail.
Space is NOT EASY.

Going to the Moon decades ago wasn't easy, and even with advances in technology, propulsion technologies have not advanced sufficiently such that going to the moon again will be much easier than done on the Apollo Missions.

Sending people to the moon for mining, at least initially, seems inefficient when much more equipment that can be teleoperated, and programmed with automated tasks would likely be the most economical per square gram use of weight allowance in shooting payloads to the Moon.

I'm certainly interested to see how China goes about this, at to what success, or failure.
I'd love to see them, or anyone really, set up a base of machines with sufficient capability to be self sufficient in not only having ability to manufacture replacement parts from native raw materials, but, to replicate every piece of every machine, conduct repairs and even build new copies to expand mining operations.

Such wouldn't require sophisticated AI since there's decent connectivity for instructions, bugfix, design upgrades, and workarounds to problems here on Earth.

I don't see US, or Russia doing this any time in the near future. I hope China has some success and in so doing, it may very well light a fire of competition under the bootys of everyone else in sparking off a new Space Race in establishing mining territory claims on The Moon, which in turn, will advance funding for the Sciences to answer and solve problems for Engineers to enact to solution issues with the new market in Moon Mining.

Whatever the case, even if it's concerted effort by robots, it advances our presence off planet, may result in opening a whole new market, and could fuel the old supply and demand for even greater.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite

TextI don't see US, or Russia doing this any time in the near future.

No, they've done nothing on the moon for a long time now.

A Chinese Long March rocket is scheduled to blast off to the Moon on Sunday evening at about 6pm British time carrying a small robotic rover that will touch down on to the lunar surface in about two weeks’ time – the first soft landing on the Earth’s only natural satellite since 1976.

The take-off from the Xichang Satellite Launch Centre in Sichuan Province marks the latest stage in China’s grand ambitions not just to put a man on Moon by the end of the next decade, but to build a permanent lunar base from which it can plan missions to Mars and beyond.

While the United States scales back its grand ideals of re-conquering the Moon, China is forging ahead with a bold three-step programme beginning with the robotic exploration of possible landing sites for the first Chinese astronauts to set foot on lunar soil between 2025 and 2030.

When China announced its lunar exploration programme in 2004 it made no secret of the fact that it wanted to follow in America’s footsteps, quite literally, but putting a man on the Moon. But even more ambitious than this, China said that the third and final phase of the programme will include the establishment of a moon base.

It was perhaps no accident that China announced this just after President George Bush said in January 2004 that it was time for the US to return to the Moon and to use it as a permanent outpost for a manned mission to Mars.

However, the dream of a lunar base was shattered in the aftermath of the financial crisis of 2008. In 2010 President Barrack Obama cancelled Nasa’s Constellation programme to build a new generation of rockets that could send people to the Moon and beyond in a new spaceship called Orion.

In the footstep of the US
It really is a Shame, America will never get it's edge back, I'm sure it's lost and now you'll just have you're Honey BoBo, Gator Boys and Wildman to watch and root for.

There is at least one person who believes that ownership of the moon could go to China once the country's efforts to actualize a moon base are realized (planned for the 2020s) -- even though there exists an international treaty that forbids direct ownership by claim, use, or other means of the moon by any one country or organization.

Really,,, You Think!?!?

However, space exploration advocate Robert Bigelow says, according to Discovery News, that China's economic strength, national direction, and proposed timeline for reaching the moon and constructing a lunar base will place the Asian nation in an optimum position to dictate moon matters and claim important mineral rights. He says the international treaty will not matter and ownership of the moon will be the first step in China's gambit to win what he calls "Solar System Monopoly."

Chinese Moon Grab

reply to post by Kinetik


What a smug little mess of a post you had fun with.

So will China care to your nations needs? Has your nation NOT profited from the geopositioning which the US is and always has been the driving force of?

You made me laugh some. All these years reading this utter dribble and people like you still revel in it. Stagnant and older.....dumber. The same....and you have the balls to call others ignorant, fat or dumb. Do you own a mirror or have any honest friends that can tell you what you really are?

Lol

Yeah. China is great. You are great.

BYE!

EDIT:
And since your English....hows Europe doing lately? Any riots yet for bread? Hows your population dealing with losing your homes and wealth to the bank you can afford..or thought you could? You are SOOO different from us and better.....

And you are right. We cant afford to feed ourselves. We are called fat Americans because we eat the fatty air of poverty.

and hows your nation doing asking france for a ride whenever it needs to send a jet anywhere?

Hows it doing on space exploration and gaining new ground for the human race in space? We are going to to mars eventually....are you guys?

How are you NOT part of the west that you can afford to crap where you eat? You think for example that France could exert ANY force in Mali to secure gas prices for dear Europeans if the entire continent wasnt first secured by NATOs and the UNs influence which we pay far more of and enforce directly? This is not even mentioning all the monies spent and forces committed worldwide to exert western influence by us alone.

How many aircraft carrier battle groups does your nation field to protect international shipping?

How many break through technologies came from your neck of the woods in the last 50 years which altered the human condition?

yeah. The world doesnt need us and your little Island would be just fine today fine by simply riding on the coat tails of the history of a long forgotten and bitterly resented empire by everyone it trampled.

reply to post by iLemming


One small step for China, one giant leap for Asia

Really this is going to be the start of a moon base project.

How do they plan on transporting the fuel regularly?

reply to post by guohua


I enjoyed reading your comments and what a beautiful scene from your home. I can understand why your husband thinks it is darn cold at times.
For all those arguing on how to transport material from the moon to the earth.... Back several years ago (30+ ?) a simple process was worked out using a large scale magnetic rail gun device that fired special buckets that contained a couple of tons of ore. It was powered by solar arrays... The buckets had retro rockets and simple guidance computers to insert them into earth orbit. I would expect from orbit the retro package would fire for de-orbit and chutes would be used for a soft landing just like used even today. Pretty simple actually with the hard part getting to the moon and surviving to set the whole thing up.
The transfer of material from earth to the moon is another biggie but there are possibilities of assembling a factory from parts taken from earth to make the rest of the needed structures once on the moon from resources the moon has. No small undertaking yet once it is set up then it becomes rather easy to use robotics for mining while sitting in your underground bunker and eating Swanlaton soup. Like others have said, I hope they go for it for no other reason than to lead the way. Competition always brings the best out in human kind as far as advancement so let us see what they can do. Being American I am sorry it is not us but during the Apollo missions there were protest about all the money being wasted when we had so many poor right here on earth. Scaled back and cancelled the missions fed the poor and ended up with the space shuttle that was supposed to cut the launch cost which turned out to be a total miscalculation if not outright lie. Now we pay for rides from the Russians.. Something in the water..?... We either ran out of funding or WWll German scientist.. There is certainly not the will or the money there once was.

ChefSlug
reply to post by iLemming

 

One small step for China, one giant leap for Asia

Really this is going to be the start of a moon base project.

How do they plan on transporting the fuel regularly?

Actually, it's going to be the Largest Step the Human Race has made in a Long Time.
Yes, there will be a Moon Base and America needs to get it's Collective Head Out Of It's A## and Get With The Program! I can Guarantee You, You Don't Want My Relatives and Old Working Comrades in Beijing with A Foot Hold on the Moon!
They don't need to transport any Fuel, all the Fuel you would every need is there.
Water or Ice of liquid hydrogen, ( rocket Fuel ) and don't forget an abundance of helium-3.
Here are some links for you.

Our atmosphere prevents any of this helium-3 arriving on the Earth. However, as it does not have an atmosphere, there is nothing to stop helium-3 arriving on the surface of the Moon and being absorbed by the lunar soil. As a result, it has been estimated that there are around 1,100,000 metric tonnes of helium-3 on the surface of the Moon down to a depth of a few metres.

Explaining the Future

At the moon’s north pole, Spudis said a minimum estimate for the amount of ice located there — as gleaned from Mini-RF data alone — is 600 million metric tons.

"If you convert that to liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen to launch a rocket … that is the equivalent of a space shuttle launch every day for 2,200 years," Spudis said. "And that’s just what we can see. I think the actual amount is at least an order of magnitude greater than that. So there’s plenty of water. The water is there. We can use it to actually bootstrap spacefaring infrastructure. That’s the real significance."

Water in Lunar Craters

My friend 727Sky , yes he thinks it's cold and you know, It is too,,, after these years in Arizona I have a Very Hard Time going home in the Winter.
Here is the picture of the Ski Resort we stayed at in 09, seven miles from our apartment.

This is the back side, our cottage is on the right. Also, this is February 2009.
And Yes these are the people going to the Moon.
Harbin, China Festivale of lights

SasquatchHunter

Jay-morris
reply to post by SasquatchHunter

 

What is there for human bodies in outterspace? Death! NO HUMAN WILL EVER VISIT ANOTHER SOLAR SYSTEM IT IS NOT POSSIBLE AS HUMAN BEINGS. Everything we know about science tells us that.

WOW! If everyone thought like you, we would still be in the dark ages. Science is changing all the time, with new ideas and theories on space travel. To say its impossible, just because "science" tells us that now, is a bit ignorant, considering how primitive we are when it comes to space technology and what we know. Hence the reason why we hear theories all the time.

Can you show me what theories exist, that transport humans from Earth to our suns closest neighbor at 4.2ly
That's 28,216,799,200,000miles away. That's 28trillion miles its a really big number. Let's start our travel speed at

1million/mph = 3,200 years flight. Hmm that's not gonna work at all.
10million/mph = 321 years. That doesn't seem reasonable.
30million/mph = 107 years now were talking just enough time to get there and die.

Its simple math anyone can understand the problem.

To achieve these speeds would require vast amounts of energy, it would also require the same amount of energy to stop at your destination.

Wormholes stargates. OK this is science fiction. Parallel universe and string theory its possible but that change our situation one bit we can never get to these destination s ever. If were now saying we can bend space and time at our will we have solved all the problems of Earth.

edit on 03pm03qupm302013-11-30T19:31:03-06:000707 by SasquatchHunter because: (no reason given)

Even nasa is looking into warp drive technology. Its not about the speed and getting to other plantes/solar systems etc. Its about warping space-time around the craft in question. A device that causes the space in front of the spacecraft to contract, while the space behind it expands.

We need proof of concept,” to see if the physics of the warp drive actually play out in practice, but many Physicists are saying this could work.

Like i said before, how many theories were laughed at, and they happened to be true? Just like the parrallel universe theory, and now that theory is taken very seriously.

You really think we know everything about the universe, and how it works? You really think we should not progress with these theories and see what happens, just because you watched star trek, so that means warp drive theories are just fantasy? Thats not the way to look at things. If we all looked at it that way, we would have never done anything, and would not be where we are now technology wise?

tadaman
reply to post by Kinetik

 

What a smug little mess of a post you had fun with.

So will China care to your nations needs? Has your nation NOT profited from the geopositioning which the US is and always has been the driving force of?

You made me laugh some. All these years reading this utter dribble and people like you still revel in it. Stagnant and older.....dumber. The same....and you have the balls to call others ignorant, fat or dumb. Do you own a mirror or have any honest friends that can tell you what you really are?

Lol

Yeah. China is great. You are great.

BYE!

EDIT:
And since your English....hows Europe doing lately? Any riots yet for bread? Hows your population dealing with losing your homes and wealth to the bank you can afford..or thought you could? You are SOOO different from us and better.....

And you are right. We cant afford to feed ourselves. We are called fat Americans because we eat the fatty air of poverty.

and hows your nation doing asking france for a ride whenever it needs to send a jet anywhere?

Hows it doing on space exploration and gaining new ground for the human race in space? We are going to to mars eventually....are you guys?

How are you NOT part of the west that you can afford to crap where you eat? You think for example that France could exert ANY force in Mali to secure gas prices for dear Europeans if the entire continent wasnt first secured by NATOs and the UNs influence which we pay far more of and enforce directly? This is not even mentioning all the monies spent and forces committed worldwide to exert western influence by us alone.

How many aircraft carrier battle groups does your nation field to protect international shipping?

How many break through technologies came from your neck of the woods in the last 50 years which altered the human condition?

yeah. The world doesnt need us and your little Island would be just fine today fine by simply riding on the coat tails of the history of a long forgotten and bitterly resented empire by everyone it trampled.

edit on 12 1 2013 by tadaman because: (no reason given)

My God! This whole post proves my point about how conditioned we are about our countries. Its really quite scary. But this is how governments keep the people in check. Lets them get away with everything they do. Its amazing that these few people in governments have complete control over us. People really do start believing that their country is all that matters. That they would fight and die for their country.

When are people going to realise its all BS!

Jay-morris

SasquatchHunter

Jay-morris
reply to post by SasquatchHunter

 

What is there for human bodies in outterspace? Death! NO HUMAN WILL EVER VISIT ANOTHER SOLAR SYSTEM IT IS NOT POSSIBLE AS HUMAN BEINGS. Everything we know about science tells us that.

WOW! If everyone thought like you, we would still be in the dark ages. Science is changing all the time, with new ideas and theories on space travel. To say its impossible, just because "science" tells us that now, is a bit ignorant, considering how primitive we are when it comes to space technology and what we know. Hence the reason why we hear theories all the time.

Can you show me what theories exist, that transport humans from Earth to our suns closest neighbor at 4.2ly
That's 28,216,799,200,000miles away. That's 28trillion miles its a really big number. Let's start our travel speed at

1million/mph = 3,200 years flight. Hmm that's not gonna work at all.
10million/mph = 321 years. That doesn't seem reasonable.
30million/mph = 107 years now were talking just enough time to get there and die.

Its simple math anyone can understand the problem.

To achieve these speeds would require vast amounts of energy, it would also require the same amount of energy to stop at your destination.

Wormholes stargates. OK this is science fiction. Parallel universe and string theory its possible but that change our situation one bit we can never get to these destination s ever. If were now saying we can bend space and time at our will we have solved all the problems of Earth.

edit on 03pm03qupm302013-11-30T19:31:03-06:000707 by SasquatchHunter because: (no reason given)

Even nasa is looking into warp drive technology. Its not about the speed and getting to other plantes/solar systems etc. Its about warping space-time around the craft in question. A device that causes the space in front of the spacecraft to contract, while the space behind it expands.

We need proof of concept,” to see if the physics of the warp drive actually play out in practice, but many Physicists are saying this could work.

Like i said before, how many theories were laughed at, and they happened to be true? Just like the parrallel universe theory, and now that theory is taken very seriously.

You really think we know everything about the universe, and how it works? You really think we should not progress with these theories and see what happens, just because you watched star trek, so that means warp drive theories are just fantasy? Thats not the way to look at things. If we all looked at it that way, we would have never done anything, and would not be where we are now technology wise?

Jay if you go to the NASA website they have an entire page dedicated to the topic of interstellar travel. They preface the introduction by calling all of this science fiction before moving into dicussing current theories.

I'm all for discussion pushing the boundaries discovering, learning, space, I'm just as passionate about it as anyone else. NASA needs more funding.

My debate lies in the fact that not everything exists and is possible in the future just because its the future. This is the mentality of many people.

We already know propulsion will never get us there. Its just not possible. Now we are saying bending spacetime will get us there. They don't know if its even possible. What we do know is that if it was possible, it would still require infinite amounts of energy. Where does infinite energy come from? Not even the stars were dreaming of visiting have inifinte energy they too will burn out before we ever gain the ability to surpass their power.

SasquatchHunter
30million/mph = 107 years now were talking just enough time to get there and die.

The closer you get to the speed of light, the slower time progresses. Slower ageing is observed even in current day astronauts, so this isn't science fiction. Einstein says so.

Therefore, if we could achieve such speeds, people wouldn't age anywhere near the rate they do on Earth. Couple that with 'hyper sleep' and / or anti-ageing technologies, and it's conceivable, even with current hypothesized innovations, that we can travel quite far out into interstellar space. Then, of course, you have habitable space craft 'biomes' that will allow for generations to live their lives in transit.

I'd be more concerned about the fact that the universe is expanding and that eventually we'll have no neighbours. And given our nearest galactic neighbour, the Andromeda Galaxy, will eventually collide with our own Milky Way (in ~5 million years), the real race is against the clock.

GeisterFahrer
reply to post by webedoomed

 

Who says we haven't?

I do. It's illogical to think we could have done this clandestine. What would be the purpose of that?

4 tons of H3 powers the USA for a full year. Look at how much environmental degradation we're doing with fracking, and shale "oil" just to keep our economy rolling in 2013.

If we went there with a mission to mine the moon for H3, it would be known to everyone.