Another couple found guilty of murder for parenting by "To Train Up a Child"

I had 5 children and the same disciplinary techniques did not work equally for them all. The social butterfly child could be made to understand her poor behavior by grounding her for a day. The quiet child was thrilled to be grounded and left to his own devices. The "indigo" child could be redirected by just explaining why particular behaviors were considered unacceptable.

Discipline and punishment are 2 different things entirely. Discipline is for the betterment of the one being disciplined. Punishment is for the benefit of the twisted turd who feels the need to hurt others.

There were a couple of times I spanked my kids but always after I'd calmed down and thought about whether their behavior REALLY needed correcting or whether it was just irritating to me personally. It always broke my heart to think I'd failed to get through to them and had to resort to swatting their bottoms (no more than 3 times).

They never went without food as a form of punishment. It's your duty as a parent to provide the necessities of life to your children whether they're compliant with your rules or not. Even hardened criminals in prison get to eat.

reply to post by whitewave


In fairness my grandparents made me skip a meal because I was wasting food. All it came down to was how much I put on my plate. I don't feel it was an injustice.

Huge difference between that and starving a kid.

In any case, sounds like you had the right approach to raising your kids.



*To note, it's funny when I think back to my childhood. Each household had different rules. We knew not to do X at the aunts, X at the uncles, or X at the grandparents.

Kinda shows you how arbitrary rules are. In any case, we were the most well behaved with the ones we liked or respected.

reply to post by nugget1
As a rule, most high schools are too busy trying instill a fear of pregnancy and new born infants, to teach about bad parenting. Besides, given the warfare over teaching about sexuality and birth control to any age "child," could you image the nuclear war if, say high school juniors or seniors were taught the psychology classes about parenting. Like homosexuality maybe an inherent trait, due to genetics or gestational causes, and physical punishment just creates an individual that may practice similar behavior, or go off the deep end and become a quiet, and deadly psycho. Check out the text books.
In the meantime, "christian" individuals and groups, Focus on the Family, will continue to sucker in people with parenting problems or expectations, that the "christian" advisers will pronounce is due to lack of proper parenting. If you are having parenting problems and are aware of them, isn't it a kind of double blow to self-esteem to have an outsider tell you, you are a bad parent?

reply to post by whitewave


No more than 3 times? That's child abuse you know that right. If you pinch a kids ear that's child abuse even, spanking them 3 times!? Lemme guess you got a garden that's doing really well in your backyard. You're no better than these people mam.

reply to post by Grimpachi


this is christianty my arse the punlishers of this book and the authors need to be held accountable in these childrens books. my friends mother tried getting my parents involved with that tough love thing back in the 90s thankfully my mom saw it for bullfodder it was my friend and his sister bot so lucky. but this books author sounds like he might be more hitler youth than Christan my god loves every one and would never expect someone to do these vile things.

Asktheanimals

amazing
And they wonder why there seems to be a war on Christianity. Do they really not know?

Do you think Jesus would treat a child this way?
This has nothing to do with Christianity.
In fact, what they advocate is the complete opposite of love, charity and patience.

I think the authors should be thrown in prison myself.
Talk about a real hate crime - this qualifies.
And I don't even believe in hate crimes.

No, Jesus wouldn't have done or taught this, BUT...many Christians and churches embrace these teachings and cling to the old testament teachings etc. Everyday there is something like this In the news concerning Christians. My question remains valid, "People wonder why there seems to be a war on Christianity.." and this IS why. I realize that not all Christians believe this but when you have a book that teaches spare the rod and spoil the child and an eye for an eye, you get this. If Christians really wanted to be Christians and get rid of these old outdated beliefs then it's time to rewrite the bible and get rid of the garbage or you'll always have people like this doing and writing stupid things in the name of Jesus.

I took time to talked to my kids.

Never beat them, turned out great.

Someone should take a water pipe to the guy that wrote this book, A Steel one that is, screw the plastic.

Well, I don't like Christianity, or any other organised religion.

But I don't think Christianity itself is to blame. Certain people who support certain things will do things like this. Just like there are sociopath and criminal cops, and cops who actually go about justice fairly.

People are the problem, not ideas, or objects such as guns, and etc.

And when people are subjected to intense torture, ridicule, abuse, that's actually a recipe to breed sociopaths and psychopaths. Not to say the abused child will end up that way, not every person ends up like that. But usually people who become violent offenders have themselves been victim to such acts in their lives.

People like this disgust me. And things like this make me nervous, since ANYONE can have a kid. They can screw their child's mind for the rest of their lives. But, as I said, not everyone is like this. But bad parenting seems to be around much to frequently.

Incidentally I feel the US government could write a book like this.

amazing

Asktheanimals

amazing
And they wonder why there seems to be a war on Christianity. Do they really not know?

Do you think Jesus would treat a child this way?
This has nothing to do with Christianity.
In fact, what they advocate is the complete opposite of love, charity and patience.

I think the authors should be thrown in prison myself.
Talk about a real hate crime - this qualifies.
And I don't even believe in hate crimes.

No, Jesus wouldn't have done or taught this, BUT...many Christians and churches embrace these teachings and cling to the old testament teachings etc. Everyday there is something like this In the news concerning Christians. My question remains valid, "People wonder why there seems to be a war on Christianity.." and this IS why. I realize that not all Christians believe this but when you have a book that teaches spare the rod and spoil the child and an eye for an eye, you get this. If Christians really wanted to be Christians and get rid of these old outdated beliefs then it's time to rewrite the bible and get rid of the garbage or you'll always have people like this doing and writing stupid things in the name of Jesus.

An eye for an eye is not a Christian teaching . . . . you need to better educate yourself on this.

Here are a few that have nothing to do with Christianity:

Police Review Journal of Arizona Teen Held Captive
abcnews.go.com...

Child Protective Services under fire after another child's death
communities.washingtontimes.com...

YOU ONLY ARE SEEING THIS ARTICLE BECAUSE THE OP HATES CHRISTIANITY . . .




Scientology, the CIA, and MIVILUDES: Cults of Abuse



The world is full of sick people who claim to be things that they are not.

-FBB

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


I beg to differ, respectively. An Eye for an Eye is Christian because it's in the Holy book of Christianity. It's part of the word of God. Christian Scholars will tell you it's there as a history lesson from Whence Christianity came, but I say it muddies the waters and Christian history and subtext should be in a different companion book. The word of God, or Christ or Jesus as he's known should be enough. Take out this old testament violence and hatred and you'll have a better religion without this train your children crap.

amazing
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

I beg to differ, respectively. An Eye for an Eye is Christian because it's in the Holy book of Christianity. It's part of the word of God. Christian Scholars will tell you it's there as a history lesson from Whence Christianity came, but I say it muddies the waters and Christian history and subtext should be in a different companion book. The word of God, or Christ or Jesus as he's known should be enough. Take out this old testament violence and hatred and you'll have a better religion without this train your children crap.

Matthew 5:38-48 New International Version (NIV)

Eye for Eye 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

No.

Please deny ignorance when you are on this site.

-FBB

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


Well look, you have me there with one point. I could list many verses with ease that are problematic with the way most Christians view themselves. The bible is at the heart of why there will continue to be stories like this in the news and why there will continue to be fringe Christian organizations that do more harm than good. The was the greater point of my post but here's a few verses that I find I have issue with.

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12) --This tells me that in the New Testament Christians are being taught that women are not equal to men and should be subservient to them. I don't agree.

“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3) --God is saying this. To go and kill children and all the animals. That's even worse than Genocide. This is in the Christian Bible with no rebuke from Jesus. It's okay to kill every living thing in the land of your enemy if God says it's okay. I don't believe God ever said that.

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18) --God said this to Moses, bringing up the problem of how to determine if someone is a witch and leading to all of the INNOCENT women burned in New England.

“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9) --I don't recall hearing this one read in church. The Psalms are generally very beautiful but...

“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28) -- And why pray tell is this in the Christian Bible? Why?

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18) --and of course it's okay to be a slave. Don't stand up for your freedom. Because God wouldn't want that.

I mean come on . This is just a handful of the thousands of errant verses that should be removed from the Bible. This is why Christianity is a sham. We could go on about Islam, Judaism, Scientology. This story was about Christianity though and thus is the focus of my posts here. Not singling out Christianity as any worse than other religions.

Denying ignorance means really taking a hard look at your beliefs. Do you?

reply to post by amazing


Which of those verses is telling people about an eye for an eye?

If you want a debate to vent your outrage concerning religious beliefs there are always plenty of threads on ATS where you can engage in such activities.

Also my "a" key is broken and I have to keep copy and pasting the letter which is getting very tedious or I would gladly hear you out and conduct a discussion on the matter in PMs or another thread.

-FBB

PS
I will say that the Bible as a whole reads like story about a people learning through personal experience why certain actions are good or bad. Also important is that the material world and a happy life while occupying it is NOT what is promised by the Biblical God.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


LOL you made me laugh with the stuck a key! I've had stuck keys and understand completely! I thank you for your replies. Just to clarify, I used the eye for an eye comment as merely an example of, what I deem as an inappropriate verse that could be taken out of context by an extremist like Michael Perl. There are a lot of issues here that could take up multiple threads and it's hard to stay completely on topic on an issue and story like this. Cheers.

Bundy
reply to post by whitewave

 

No more than 3 times? That's child abuse you know that right. If you pinch a kids ear that's child abuse even, spanking them 3 times!? Lemme guess you got a garden that's doing really well in your backyard. You're no better than these people mam.

you are comparing a couple of swats,spankings, an ear pinch with the horrible abuse in this book that has lead to dead children and calling them the same thing...are you nuts??????? I hope you were being sarcastic.

I grew up in a Catholic foster home and they did all those exact same punishments, except the beatings until you can't breath, thank goodness or I'd be dead

I don't understand how is such book legal.
Is freedom of speech and liberalism gone too far in some cases.

NihilistSanta
My grandfather on the other hand was an extreme proponent of corporal punishment and I never misbehaved in his presence.

I bet your grandfather never left you outside in the cold, or denied you meals as punishment? I think most of us got a kick up the butt every now and again for doing something wrong, asserting a level of dominance as a parent is essential. However, if you assert a level of dominance you have to let them know that you do it because of love, hosing down a child with cold water in the yard because they had an accident is humiliating and degrading, even prisoners get a warm room to wash in.

There definitely isn't one right way or one wrong way and I don't think corporal punishment should be banned, in the wild an animals mother will give it a gentle nip if it does something wrong, but they would never do something that puts it's child at risk, anything that could be a health risk of any kind is where the line should (obviously) be.