Another couple found guilty of murder for parenting by "To Train Up a Child"

monkofmimir
"Train" is about the truth of it from the sounds of this book. You "train" animals, you educate humans.

I realy think they're should be a lot of leway for parents deciding how to raise their children, but this is sick and twisted, any parent who reads this book and then decides to inflict such sick "training" on their child clearly shouldn't have a child or possible even be in the same area as one.

Exactly. Training a child in the same manner you would train a dog (although I wouldn't even do these things to a dog) gets you the same results. A dog doesn't do anything because he is smart, a dog does things based on a very simple association based thought process. That's not higher function, that's not intelligence.

Getting a child to stop doing something by making him afraid of what YOU will do to him if he does it, is NOT education the child. It's making him a stupid coward that functions on fear not logic. You get a child to stop doing something by conveying the reason to NOT do it. If you cannot convey that reason, maybe you should really look hard at how arbitrary and pointless the rules you place on your child are.

If a child has to obey a rule, it should be a logical, fair rule. If it's a logical fair rule, it will be easy to get the child to understand why they should follow it. If you can't communicate that, you are making pointless rules, you suck at communication, or your child is developmentally delayed. None of those are the fault of the child, any fault is on your shoulders.

Parents that beat their children are loosers, that's the simple truth. By striking a child you are admitting you suck. You are admitting you fail as a parent and teacher, and can only fall back on being a bully to get your child to stop annoying you. That's basically it. Think of what a worthless piece of trash such an adult is.

You admit you fail at being a person worthy of any kind of respect, so to replace the respect you crave so much you induce fear instead. What an immature, unevolved behavior. Because you are not worthy of respect, your child does not respect you, and you blame your child. Your a failure and so were your parents, hopefully your abused child will break the cycle and actually turn out to be a decent human. Not very hopeful though, you did a good job damaging them.

It's the difference between having a boss you obey because you admire and respect, vs one you obey because they constantly go around being an arse threatening to fire people. The type of "little man" complex bosses out there are so embarrassing and shameful we can all instantly identify them. Parents who need to resort to using physical punishment are just such sad sobs. Worthless hunks of trash worthy of fewer human rights than a diseased rat.

general "you" not specific "you" in case anyone was confused.

This hit home for me and pisses me off severely. I was raised by a mother and step father who would whip me like that. I never understood why until I got older. My step brothers would break all the rules and got nothing since they were there only seasonally I was the one who got the belt/switch/tube etc. I remember meals when I wasn't allowed to eat and times when I was whipped to unconsciousness. I still have physical scars and mental walls from it.

The only time I got away from the abuse was when I lived with my grandmother.

Those "people" need to undergo the same abuse as they tout. And I would LOVE to apply it in spades to them.

Anything else I have to say is against the t&c.

catfishjoe
Jesus. Are they Nazis? That's terrible. People have lost their damn minds. No common sense anymore. Poor little girl.

NO! Not Nazis! Not everything purely evil can be compiled to the Nazis in Germany - my parents were obviously raised by their parents, whom obviously were at least in the NSDAP at that time..

And NOTHING like that would have happened in a normal Nazi-household!

This!
Is barbaric to the extreme!

reply to post by James1982

Parents that beat their children are loosers, that's the simple truth. By striking a child you are admitting you suck. You are admitting you fail as a parent and teacher, and can only fall back on being a bully to get your child to stop annoying you. That's basically it. Think of what a worthless piece of trash such an adult is.

Your entire post was brilliant. This above, especially. I've had a few nephews, kids of friends, spend time with me… and "troublemakers" the parents declared unwaveringly, "there's something wrong with that one."

Watching a kid either get completely ignored, yelled at, hit, etc. and no real communication with them, it only takes a short while to start building their communication skills. To let them actually live and not live in constant fear.

This kind of fear can be emotional or physical.

The saddest thing is if no one ever involves themselves with a troubled child and they have to go on, either completely accepting this kind of thing, or going completely against it and probably having some difficulty retuning every value instilled in them since birth.

It's no wonder why some are so quick to accept anything from authority, and it's no wonder why people detest authority with every fibre of their being.

reply to post by ManFromEurope

And NOTHING like that would have happened in a normal Nazi-household!

What if you had a bastard Jewish cousin?

boncho
reply to post by ManFromEurope

And NOTHING like that would have happened in a normal Nazi-household!

 

What if you had a bastard Jewish cousin?

That would have been.. bad.. (if I follow your dark sense of humour, that is).

You have ugly thoughts.

reply to post by amazing


Yes they do know, because all Christians beat their children with rubber hoses and plumbing tubes (dripping with sarcasm) come on people this is just more garbage to discredit the religion nothing more, I know other Christians and this is not how any of them treat their children its"spare the rod and spoil the child" with love and affection and understanding. What these people did isn't Christian like and unfortunately some Christians aren't very christian like and that's their cross to bear but not everyone of a race or religion is the same This book should be burned or taken out of circulation considering it talks of beating children which to me and everyone i know is extremely disgusting, they are our future and a blessing and any christian that feels its ok to beat their kids is a COWARD and in time will be brought to their knees, whether by man or Gods hand i hope their punishment is swift and absolute.

It is refreshing to see everyone's outrage and distaste at the parenting techniques in this book. It gives me hope for the next generation that so many of you on here recognise positive approaches to educating the children, who will one day be the law makers and workers of society.

Very sad that people buy this book and think these are legit ways to teach a child, I pray that book sellers see sense and stop selling this book through principle.

I also don't think it should be banned otherwise that opens a door for other books to be banned. You may disagree but then there comes the issue of where the line is, should communist book be banned? Should books on black magic be banned? I think all information should be available to everyone, however you wouldn't find 'Mein Kampf' on a book shelf, just like you should never find this one on a book shelf.

Yet another reason to be embarrassed about being human. My heart goes out to the children on the receiving end of the advice this book touts. I have three wonderful children. I can't say I nor my husband are perfect parents, but we did/am doing our best. They are strong, independant and best of all, love us back. All without the use of a pvc pipe!

amazing
And they wonder why there seems to be a war on Christianity. Do they really not know?

Do you think Jesus would treat a child this way?
This has nothing to do with Christianity.
In fact, what they advocate is the complete opposite of love, charity and patience.

I think the authors should be thrown in prison myself.
Talk about a real hate crime - this qualifies.
And I don't even believe in hate crimes.

This thread makes me sick to the core

People who do this to their children are unfit to parent. Period.

Physical and emotion abuse towards children only teaches them that it is an acceptable thing to do to other people.

I have 2 myself - and have never laid a finger on either one. They are both growing up to be well rounded individuals.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is an interesting case. While the extremes advocated in the book are clearly abusive the real debate here is about corporal punishment. I find it interesting when people talk about millennials being spoiled or having a sense of entitlement but then refuse to acknowledge that that generation is the "no spank" generation. There has to be a middle ground. I was an unruly child probably because my parents did not believe in corporal punishment so I had nothing to fear in regards to authority. My grandfather on the other hand was an extreme proponent of corporal punishment and I never misbehaved in his presence.

The book is really no surprise though as people try to condition humans like animals. Reminds me of baby Albert and John B. Watson or Pavlov and his assistant or Skinner take your pick from the early behaviorist. Christians do not have a monopoly on corporal punishment Just look into any of the above.

Wow, everyone here is surprisingly black and white about this issue. I'm pretty sure that as children develop, they respond to different learning mechanisms differently. I imagine it's hard to convince a toddler actual right from wrong, and they are more susceptible to learning from simple associations. As they grow older, they learn to appreciate consequences and whatnot from being verbally instructed.

When I was a kid I got beat a couple times - mainly slaps to the butt with either a hand or a wire hanger/ leather belt. In hindsight, I have no problem with it because I'm pretty sure I deserved those (being mean to my younger sister, mainly). All that stopped around the time that the threat of not being able to go out and play worked on me. I definitely don't hold anything against my parents for it, and love them very much. Granted, my little sister didn't get any of that because she was pretty well-behaved on her own. I was the wild child. In any case, it'd be silly to call that child abuse.

I can appreciate that what the OP posted is HEINOUS, absolutely, but I'm kinda shocked to see that people balk at the idea of any kind of physical punishment at all.

How the hell can a book like this ever get published???

Shame on the publishers, and shame on the authors. I hope seven shades of karma gets dealt to those responsible for this tragedy.

Id rather a society that thinks crystals are magical over old men beating their fear of god into their children.

These people are disgusting. They're saying to use a specific stick to not break bones or leave marks, if you said that to your neighbor the police would be at your house with a social worker before you made it to your front door.

What a way to force a kid to not think but react. Cant afford them finding out your beliefs are BS. All kids wanna do is ask you "why" or "help you fix it" , they want to learn, little scientists, these people cant have that though because science is the devil. The same people misinterpret the words in their guide book because they couldn't be bothered to find out what the words meant in the time it was written.

get my switch!

reply to post by spartacus699


Wow!

Working with children and raising my own I have found respect goes an awful long way. Respect is a two way street. Bullying/ respect are not the same thing.

I have never beaten my child and never would. Lead by example springs to mind. He has never caused me any trouble and is well adjusted, happy and resilient. He's had tough times but life is never smooth. He has never verbally attacked me because why would he? We are actually on the same side. He takes constructive criticism, I can discipline when needed, in a humane and dignified way. It is just as effective because I have earned his respect as he has mine.

People who beat children are lacking in many other skills. It is a reflection of their lack of parenting skills not on the child.

If you are not completely sickened, abhorred and down right appalled by the story and the book ..... Again it is a reflection on yourself.

The book should be banned and the authors prosecuted for advocating child abuse. Absolutely disgusting.

Just to add, I once asked a well respected and insightful pastor about 'the rod' who told me it was misinterpreted and actually meant 'knowledge'. I have always accepted this answer as more realistic in line with Gods love, especially for his children. When taken in that context I can fully agree that communicating ( that means listening too) with our children is indeed the best and right way of discipline. I do not discipline through humiliation or degradation. I guide the best way I can and when the need arises I remove privileges.

reply to post by Grimpachi


I can't even believe that there are suckers that would even entertain these "methods". These parents have to have been twisted before they even picked up that book. Who would even think that was ok. Not a normal person that is for sure. They should track every adult that ever bought that book to check on their kid's safety.

I am just sick to my stomach.

I can’t find it anymore but this isn’t the first article about this case that I have read. In fact after I read it I was simply too angry to create a thread on the topic then this article was in an E-mail the other day so I figured it was time. The first time I heard about this I searched the internet for other articles what shocked me even more were the good reviews I found. It has only been recent that many ministries have taken the book off the read list for their congregations. The whole thing still makes me to sick but if you want to know more simply type the book title in a search engine and you will get plenty of hits.

This excerpt is from the amazon page where the book is for sale. No link I refuse but it’s easy enough to find.

Editorial Reviews


Review

...after only 2 days of applying the principles in your book, our rebellious, miserable, 8 year-old daughter suddenly transformed... -- No Greater Joy, Sample Ed. 2000, p. 5.

I am so thankful to be enjoying my precious children instead of merely trying to "keep up" with my life. -- No Greater Joy, May/June 2000, p.4.

I enjoyed it so much that I ordered 8 more of them to give to each family at Christmas. --No Greater Joy, Sample Copy 1999, p. 8.


About the Author

Introducing Michael and Debi Pearl


Michael and Debi Pearl have been married since 1971. They have 5 children and 15 grandchildren. Between them they have authored 14 books and 8 booklets which combined have sold millions. Much of what they write deals with marriage, child training, and homeschooling.

One of their recent books, Good and Evil (Bible stories in Marvel comic format), has been published into 25 languages with another 60 translations soon to be ready for press. The Pearl’s also publish a 32 page bi-monthly magazine with a subscription of over 100,000. Needless to say they are prolific writers and public speakers.

On another note, Michael is an inductee into the International Knife Throwers Hall of Fame and holds several world titles, including Gold Cup winner of 2008-9, long distance thrower of the year with a record all time high of hitting a four inch target at 63 feet, and he is the undisputed best tomahawk thrower of 2009, holding the world title.

When he is not teaching the Bible or speaking to audiences on how to have a good marriage and obedient children he is teaching kids how to stick a bull’s eye with a knife or hawk.

Debi Pearl and husband Michael have 5 children and 15 grandchildren. Between them they have author 14 books and 8 booklets which combined have sold millions. Learn more about them and sign up for the No Greater Joy bi-monthly magazine at NoGreaterJoy.org.

Debi Pearl grew up during the 1960s at the height of the hippie revolution and the Jesus Movement. The forced draft due to the Vietnam War brought a sense of eternity to the youth, provoking them to seriously consider their souls. It was a time of a great move of the Spirit of God. As a teenager, dressed in tie-dye tee shirt and long drooping peasant skirt, she stood on the highways and byways sharing the gospel and seeing miracle after miracle of God’s amazing grace. She married her life mate, Michael Pearl, in 1971.

The book is also linked to the deaths of at least two other children, four-year-old Sean Paddock of North Carolina and seven year-old Lydia Schatz of California. In each case, punishment techniques advocated by the controversial Christian parenting manual were used.

For more news, information and humor relevant to atheists, freethinkers, and secular humanists, check out Progressive Secular Humanist Examiner on Facebook.

I don’t know if this is linked but I would stay away

Train Up A Child Daycare & Learning Center

What is really sad and scary is it has been reported that this book is very popular with homeschoolers.

I feel so sorry for the young children when I read stories like this. Poor babies. What the hell is wrong with people?

Either way, corporal punishment has been pretty widespread throughout the years. I am hopeful that will change in the future but it's still pretty dismal, at least in America. I think 80% of parents still hit their kids as punishment here.

Many countries have laws against corporal punishment in the home. It is ridiculous that it's still legal.

It is an incredibly lazy way of parenting that makes no rational sense in the long term development of children. If your wife does something you perceive as bad you don't hit her. Why are children, the most vulnerable of our society, in a class of people that are allowed to be physically assaulted?

For anyone who has time, read through this website. It details the history of child abuse and it's link to wars. Also shows how corporal punishment practices are also responsible for the sociopath Nazis in WW2. The practice was that the mothers would leave their babies in their cribs without food and bind them. They would also stuff a wet rag in their mouths. Really, really, interesting but makes you think of the larger impacts of corporal punishment as a developmental tool.


www.psychohistory.com...

Here's an excerpt :

Even if the mother breastfed her baby, it was only a few times a day, and the rest of the time it was abandoned to the cradle in a dark room, wrapped in tight swaddling bandages, with their mouths stuffed with a Zulp, a linen bag filled with bread and alcohol, so those dying of neglect and starvation ranged from a quarter to half in their first year of life.17 Infants were so routinely hungry that “one rarely encounters a German infant who is fully breast-fed…those poor worms get their mouths stuffed with a dirty rag containing chewed bread so that they cannot scream.”18 Children simply were not felt to be human like adults. Even when they were infants and little children, their parents constantly told them they were just “useless mouths to feed…rarely could we eat a piece of bread without hearing father’s comment that we did not merit it.”19 Indeed, fathers were competitors to their babies for their wives’ breasts. In Bavaria, for instance, where breastfeeding by the mother was uncommon, a man married a woman from northern Germany, and when she had her baby the jealous father told her that nursing her child was “swinish and filthy” and he himself “would not eat if she did not give up this disgusting habit.”20

This is the site:

www.psychohistory.com...