Courts Quietly Confirm MMR Vaccine Causes Autism

Akragon
reply to post by angryhulk

 

I'd support that...

I hate tangerines LOL

If thrown at somebody it can be quite a knock! Especially when frozen!

Anyway, topic drift and I apologise.

OneManArmy

angryhulk

OneManArmy

angryhulk

Akragon
reply to post by luciddream

 

I KNOW that IF one vaccine causes one case of Autism... that is ONE too many

Then we better ban paracetemols and dairy products as there are numerous (proposed) cases of autism surrounding those products. In fact you could probaby google 'autism and tangerines' and there will probably be a story about how a tangerine gave somebody autism.

At the end of the day nothing is 100% safe for 100% of the population and unfortunately the MMR vaccine has probably had an adverse effect on a number of children (as suggested above) but Dr. Wakefield and his theory has been debunked and you absolutely cannot link the MMR vaccine (directly) with autism. The theory does not hold any water.

I did as you suggested and searched for a link between tangerines and autism, I found no links.

But I found this...
Vaccine Court Awards millions to 2 children

Ok, then we better discount the tens/hundreds of thousands of people it's potentially saved from illness. In fact we better ban surgery aswell, because as much as surgery can be good for you, it's responsible for cases of illness, suffering and even death!

Ban the MMR vaccine! Ban surgery! In fact go ahead and ban tangerines aswell! It's impossible to swallow a whole tangerine you'll die instantly! I'm away to make a sign and parade the streets.

No, lets keep the MMR vaccine but lets also give parents a CHOICE by offering the alternative single jabs.
So those parents that are happy to give an MMR do so, those with worries can give their children the alternative.
Its not such a crazy idea is it?

And what benefit(s) do the single jabs have over the MMR vaccine? I believe one of my original sources go over this topic aswell.

angryhulk

OneManArmy

angryhulk

OneManArmy

angryhulk

Akragon
reply to post by luciddream

 

I KNOW that IF one vaccine causes one case of Autism... that is ONE too many

Then we better ban paracetemols and dairy products as there are numerous (proposed) cases of autism surrounding those products. In fact you could probaby google 'autism and tangerines' and there will probably be a story about how a tangerine gave somebody autism.

At the end of the day nothing is 100% safe for 100% of the population and unfortunately the MMR vaccine has probably had an adverse effect on a number of children (as suggested above) but Dr. Wakefield and his theory has been debunked and you absolutely cannot link the MMR vaccine (directly) with autism. The theory does not hold any water.

I did as you suggested and searched for a link between tangerines and autism, I found no links.

But I found this...
Vaccine Court Awards millions to 2 children

Ok, then we better discount the tens/hundreds of thousands of people it's potentially saved from illness. In fact we better ban surgery aswell, because as much as surgery can be good for you, it's responsible for cases of illness, suffering and even death!

Ban the MMR vaccine! Ban surgery! In fact go ahead and ban tangerines aswell! It's impossible to swallow a whole tangerine you'll die instantly! I'm away to make a sign and parade the streets.

No, lets keep the MMR vaccine but lets also give parents a CHOICE by offering the alternative single jabs.
So those parents that are happy to give an MMR do so, those with worries can give their children the alternative.
Its not such a crazy idea is it?

And what benefit(s) do the single jabs have over the MMR vaccine? I believe one of my original sources go over this topic aswell.

The biggest benefit is that those who have misgivings about MMR can get their children vaccinated and the "herd immunity" can be raised.
Since when has choice been a bad thing?

Is peace of mind not a benefit?

opopanax

luciddream
reply to post by Akragon

 

Me and thousands others i know have had vaccine since birth. How come they are not Autistic?

Can this be a error caused by the thinking... "i did that today, then this happened, so that must be the cause of this"?


Vaccine was never proven to cause Autism. Way too many variables in a human life to just focus on one thing.



I say autism is caused when the baby is delivered by a female doctor instead of a male. < this is how it sounds to me.

People engage in this fallacious reasoning all the time, e.g. "I got a flu shot and the next day I started getting sick, therefore the flu shot gave me the flu." It's really frustrating. You're so right about there being far too many variables in a human life - that's why medicine is not a one-size-fits-all, cut-and-dry science as some believe or would like it to be. Like "cancer," "autism" is not a single, homogenous, universal syndrome with a single cause and a single cure.

I tell people the same thing when they say smoking causes cancer...it very well may but can anyone point me to a study that unbiasly shows the cause is tobacco as opposed to pollution or a host of other variables. Probably not becauze as you pointed out there are just too many variables to account for.

reply to post by Akragon


I do think that this issue is probably more complex than "If we don't get vaccines, we will stop autism" but I think it's good that this has finally been put out there by an "authoritative" source (such as a court) so the majority might stop and think for a second (or actually take an interest in WHAT autism is..)

I would be considered mildly Asperger's and have issues with overstimulation and hyper-analytical states, but I work with (for) a 21yr old autistic guy who is much further down the spectrum and, while he does have many areas that need improvement (patience and communication mostly), there are many areas where he is entirely above and beyond "the norm" and those aspects are entirely ignored by most people because his history of violence and unpredictability have prepared most of the administrators (in my company and in the state case workers..) to deal with him as if he is ALWAYS going to have these episodes, rather than understand and learn about HIM and not just his "condition"..

You'll find that, while there are consistencies between "those who fall on the autistic spectrum", each case is entirely different and the only way we can "solve" autism is by redefining it and learning to work WITH it, rather than try to "cure" it..

watch "The Lawnmower Man" for an exaggerated idea of what happens when we try to "fix" people haha

OneManArmy
Me and everyone I know in my generation didnt have the MMR vaccine, we contracted the diseases, often at "measles parties" intended to make us contract the disease to get it out the way early.
I dont know anyone who suffered brain damage or deafness as a result.
Does that actually mean anything?

It means you don't hang around brain damaged or deaf people from your generation. If you did, and you inquired after their medical history, and they were inclined to share it with you, you might find out that some of their disabilities were due to measles complications.

FurvusRexCaeli

OneManArmy
Me and everyone I know in my generation didnt have the MMR vaccine, we contracted the diseases, often at "measles parties" intended to make us contract the disease to get it out the way early.
I dont know anyone who suffered brain damage or deafness as a result.
Does that actually mean anything?

It means you don't hang around brain damaged or deaf people from your generation. If you did, and you inquired after their medical history, and they were inclined to share it with you, you might find out that some of their disabilities were due to measles complications.

I dont doubt that for a second, but no one I knew at school did suffer as a result, although Im 100% sure many did.
Some people can be stung by a bee and die from anaphylactic shock, most dont.
Some people can eat a peanut and die for the same reason, most dont.

All I would like to see is a choice for parents that are suspicious of MMR.
If the goal is "herd immunity" and the health of our children then why isnt EVERYTHING being done to help it?
Instead of forcing immunisation through courts.

Thanks for someone earlier in the thread posting the article showing the OP story's Dr. actually having a public retraction of data from The Lancet of all publications. That screams fabricator and hoaxer louder than anything I could ask for ....the abstract to the Italian case just supports that further.

As the parent of a child with Autism and also one who took the basic vaccine set myself as a child WITHOUT adverse impact of any kind, I'm rather torn on the topic and will stand by what I've said about this being a highly personal and individual decision each person will literally live or die with, as it may apply down the road.

What I'd certainly hope though, is of ALL the topics ATS sees grace it's forums, this one carry the Deny Ignorance Motto more strongly than any other.

That doesn't mean I'm the key to that...or ANYONE else is. The fact is, in light of directly contradicting "experts", the only thing left is for each person to IGNORE the opinions everyone seems to have here, and research themselves. After all, our health and that of our children is too critical to take any internet opinion on something like this.

In the end... Living with autism with possible contributory factors, if not cause from a vaccine issue is little better than dying of Whooping Cough, Polio or one of the other major diseases the baseline vaccinations address, IMO.

Wrabbit2000
The fact is, in light of directly contradicting "experts", the only thing left is for each person to IGNORE the opinions everyone seems to have here, and research themselves. After all, our health and that of our children is too critical to take any internet opinion on something like this.

Yes that is a very important point, but there is so much fear mongering on the internet how do you suggest these concerned parents do research if not online?

I am sure that all vaccines cause problems, the FDA looks at numbers and if the negative effects are less than say one percent, it is acceptable. Out of 300 million people that is about three million that have bad side effects. Will you be one of the acceptable casualties. If there is evidence of negative effects in your family, it is not good to get these vaccines without doing research. But it seems that some are now touted as necessary and your kids need to get them. I suppose they want to kill off or incapacitate those who have strong immune systems so that only the weak survive. This is setting us up for failure if the microbes and viruses mutate fast with only a few surviving.

OneManArmy


My daughter has autism.

Yes she had the MMR vaccine.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the MMR vaccine was the cause.

Perhaps another option is that

Some of the increase is due to the way children are identified, diagnosed, and served in their local communities, although exactly how much is due to these factors is unknown. Also, it is likely that reported increases are explained partly by greater awareness by doctors, teachers, and parents.

.

source

reply to post by OneManArmy

Oh, I'd never dissuade someone from online research. What are the options these days? Online or a Brick and Mortar Library? Well..University Libraries are extensive and powerful, but they often don't present themselves as available to the public. Community/County libraries are as much about selling themselves with popular titles and best sellers as any book store these days, so they're marginal for value too.

Online is about the only way, so I didn't mean to be unclear for that.

To clarify, it's opinion vs. factual basis I say people need to look up on something like this. This OP says there are cases to support it? Okay. First step. What are the case citations? (xxxx vs. xxxx in such and such a court) That will at least allow for reading summary decisions and see if the cases really DO apply or not. It's amazing how many research efforts I've ended right at that first stage, because that alone was so far out of whack, it wasn't worth doing more.

Then...medical research cited in the trials the case law has been produced by. Witnesses didn't voice opinion, they testified, in almost all real world situations, based on other references, studies or factual citation. What were those to backtrack and see? Research is time consuming and mind numbing in the boredom.....but...

These are our Children. If we guess WRONG..and they don't get vaccinated, but die of a disease covered in base immunization, that will be one hell of a thing to live with. Conversely, if it's assumed this is all B.S. and so vaccines of all stripes are welcomed....to see a child develop profound autism? That TOO will be one hell of a thing to live with.

Hence...how absolutely critical I think it is, on just SOME topics, for each person to put the hours into the research, personally, to get an understanding we can each live with for long term consequence EITHER option carries with it.

aorAki

OneManArmy


My daughter has autism.

Yes she had the MMR vaccine.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the MMR vaccine was the cause.

Perhaps another option is that

Some of the increase is due to the way children are identified, diagnosed, and served in their local communities, although exactly how much is due to these factors is unknown. Also, it is likely that reported increases are explained partly by greater awareness by doctors, teachers, and parents.

.

source

I didnt explicitly say the jab did cause it, because I quite simply do not know.
If I had fears in the first place Id have never allowed my daughter to be immunised in the first place.
My other 2 children had no ill effects from the vaccine.
All I said is my daughter has autism(to be more precise, she is on the autistic spectrum), and she had the jab.
Nothing more and nothing less. I would have liked to have been given the choice for separate vaccines, and I would like future parents to be given a choice.
I mean if our health is the most important thing, I would assume that all options would be open.
But the fact is that big pharma is one of the biggest funded lobbying groups in the world.

The massive rise in cases of ADHD has been proven to be overblown by over diagnosis.

Wrabbit2000

Hence...how absolutely critical I think it is, on just SOME topics, for each person to put the hours into the research, personally, to get an understanding we can each live with for long term consequence EITHER option carries with it.

Yes indeed.

We are damned if we do and damned if we dont, but if we dont approach something like this with the greatest of scrutiny, then we only have ourselves to blame, whatever the outcome. This applies to almost everything in life.

aka Deny Ignorance.

It's always interesting to see how the antivax crowd implies correlation equals causation. They always point out how as the number of vaccines increases the number of autism cases increases as if nothing else has changed over time. During the same period they point to we also see a decline in the cases of schizophrenia. Does this mean vaccines cure schizophrenia or do we simply have better diagnostic techniques nowadays?

Xcalibur254
Does this mean vaccines cure schizophrenia or do we simply have better diagnostic techniques nowadays?

I would have thought that if diagnosis had improved then the cases of schizophrenia would have risen.

Naming a recognizable human trait doesnt necessarily make it an illness needing treatment.
ADHD being my case in point. When I was a kid it was just called hyperactivity, and we knew to avoid sweets and sugary drinks.

reply to post by Akragon


While I'm all for questioning MSM and established doctrines, I am appalled that you would post a claim like this on ATS, with no proof supporting your claim, no supporting data and clearly no expertise in either MMR vaccine research, Medline or even sound research practices that go beyond a goggle search.

You do realise the consequences of what can happen if a parent chooses to avoid the MMR vaccine as a result of your post? Children will die.

I think its reprehensible of you to post such a thread title, given the proven and published scientific research that has already been established.

I'm appalled that ATS MODS can allow potentially dangerous information to be decimated on the site. They wouldn't get away with publishing how to suicide guides or bomb making instructions without being shut down.

Shame on you.

OneManArmy

Xcalibur254
Does this mean vaccines cure schizophrenia or do we simply have better diagnostic techniques nowadays?

I would have thought that if diagnosis had improved then the cases of schizophrenia would have risen.

Naming a recognizable human trait doesnt necessarily make it an illness needing treatment.
ADHD being my case in point. When I was a kid it was just called hyperactivity, and we knew to avoid sweets and sugary drinks.

Actually I was in the same boat when I was a child.... they stuffed me with meds from Grd 1 to 7... and yes it helped but in the end it wasn't necessary... turns out I just wasn't challenged enough... school was boring

Everything has a pill these days and ALL OF IT is for money more so then actually curing anything

These companies that sell meds are not in the curing business... they make money for temporary relief from symptoms... Cures don't make money...

And these days its so much worse....

Heres a pill that will help your depression... but the side effect is that your ass will bleed....

WTF?? really?

redshoes
reply to post by Akragon

 

While I'm all for questioning MSM and established doctrines, I am appalled that you would post a claim like this on ATS, with no proof supporting your claim, no supporting data and clearly no expertise in either MMR vaccine research, Medline or even sound research practices that go beyond a goggle search.

You do realise the consequences of what can happen if a parent chooses to avoid the MMR vaccine as a result of your post? Children will die.

I think its reprehensible of you to post such a thread title, given the proven and published scientific research that has already been established.

I'm appalled that ATS MODS can allow potentially dangerous information to be decimated on the site. They wouldn't get away with publishing how to suicide guides or bomb making instructions without being shut down.

Shame on you.

Can't believe everything you read on line... eh

Shame me if you will...

Don't like it.... don't read it

OneManArmy

I dont doubt that for a second, but no one I knew at school did suffer as a result, although Im 100% sure many did.

If they did, it would have been when you were very young, I suppose, and they would have been taken out of school. Unless they were personally known to you, you probably wouldn't have even noticed they were missing. I know I didn't track the comings and goings of everyone I went to elementary school with. Sometimes people just "went to another school" and that was that.

All I would like to see is a choice for parents that are suspicious of MMR.

It would be nice if society could accomodate every irrational belief without compromising public safety, but we really can't. We could spend hundreds of millions of dollars developing a new MMR vaccine, and the anti-vaxers would just move the goalposts. Meanwhile, there are a lot of diseases that don't have vaccines or cures. Given the choice between funding an MMR replacement and a creating a new vaccine for a different disease (West Nile, ebola, etc.), any rational person would focus research on the new vaccine.