Pope Francis - Do not be fooled by false messiahs

WarminIndy

Fraudfinder

FlyersFan

Fraudfinder
why do Catholics pray to Mary, to the saints and to the angels? This is a form of worship.

Talking to the saints via prayer is NOT the same as worshipping them. Asking those saints to intercede to God, who they live with in heaven, is very different than worship. It's acknowledging God is in charge and it's asking those who live with Him in heaven to talk to Him for you. That's two different things.

In Europe they have sculptures of baby angels with wings, Mary, and other saints hanging off the walls and paintings. Doesn't the Old testament talk about no idols from heaven or earth?

Do you have pictures of your mother, father, sisters, brothers, friends? Do you worship those pictures? It's the same in a Catholic church. People TALK TO Mary and the saints because they are in heaven. Catholics ask them to intercede with God for them. It's no different than you asking your mother or father or cousin to pray for you to God.

Catholics do worship Mary and other idols.

Nope. Not at all.
Catholics would have to be saying that Mary and the statues were God ... and they do not.

edit on 11/19/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

The intercede person in heaven is ONLY one person - Jesus

edit on 19-11-2013 by Fraudfinder because: (no reason given)

That would be intercessor.

But let me tell you a story, I once went to visit a Pentecostal church. I grew up around that, so I know what it is. But in this church service, a man got up to preach, not about God, but the pastor, and everyone in the church began shouting and worshiping this man. I just sat there stunned that they were actually praising this man in such a manner. So you can't say it is just Catholics doing this.

Avril Lavign began as choir girl in a church. Jessica Simpson testified that she received a revelation, DURING WORSHIP, that she was called to be a great rock star. How many young kids do you see on The Voice and American Idol who say "I came from a Gospel background, but want to do something more"? How many of these kids throw Christianity under the bus for fame and glory?

And how many of their parents and churches allow this happen? Matthew Schuler, in the current top ten on The Voice said on camera that he wanted more than Gospel. Ceelo Green told one contestant "my parents were ministers, but I'm a sinner".

And The Killer himself, Mr. Jerry Lee Lewis said "Is the glory of the talent for God, or for the talented" Yes, young Christian kids of all denominations are throwing Christianity under the bus to have fame, glory and to be worshiped.

Do you listen to Elvis? Another one who received great fame and worship, but just a man who met his death. And he could not reconcile his faith with his lifestyle. He may have sung some very wonderful Gospel songs, but was a womanizing, drug addicted, bloated blob of flesh when he died. What good did the world's adoration, prayer and worship do for his end?

Don't pick on Catholics for the pope if you ever listen to Elvis Presley. He was a god to people, and there are those who believe he is immortal. Have you ever been to Graceland? I have, I went through Memphis several times and thought that while I was there, I might go see this icon of American entertainment. Did you know how many people around the world have come there to give messages to "The King of Rock and Roll" on the walls of Graceland?

But did you know, that at the Tennessee Welcome Center, across the Mississippi River from Arkansas, at the foot of Beale Street are two statues in that building, one of B.B. King and one of Elvis Presley? So tell us again about how Catholics are wrong. When it comes to rock and pop culture, Christianity is thrown under the bus.

WIKIPEDIA: Intercession is the act of interceding (intervening or mediating) between two parties.

Thank you for the spelling correction but intercede and intercessor are the same thing.

The theme I was talking about was about Catholics and how they worship/pray.

Of course there are many protestants lost and blind to the truth. Many parade around spouting they are Christian but the same is for Catholics.

I listen to Christian music not Elvis Presley.

I don't worship movies, movie stars, music (unless Christian) or my family, just the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Why? Because I am weak and it is easy to fall back into sin. I am not acting to be righteous, the bible says to be righteous. I walk in faith.

I was attempting to show those who are interested in the importance of prayer and the correct way and the wrong way to pray.

BTW I often see you answering for someone else? Why is that? And often you change the subject matter? I am not being mean....just making a point. Have you ever heard of the term "warm Christian"

Instead of attempting to agree with everyone I suggest you take a stand in what is right and also take a stand in what is wrong. That is one of the biggest problems with Christianity today. Trying to please everyone - this does not work.

If someone commits a sin - I do not hate the sinner - I hate the sin. Expose the sin for what it is.

reply to post by Fraudfinder


Typically what happens is this, when I am responding, I am writing my thoughts out as I think them. Maybe I will use the @ from now on so you know who I am talking to.

Say what you want about my faith. But I have made a stand about what is right or wrong. I don't really worry that you called me a "warm Christian" because the term is "lukewarm". But you are really taking the "hot" and "cold" in a very different meaning, without even knowing cultural reference John was making to that church.

I don't think any non-Christian on here says that I am lukewarm when it comes to my faith. He that has an ear, let him hear what the SPIRIT saith unto the CHURCHES.

But since I am directing this post to you, and only you, @FraudFinder, can you tell me how you know God? Was your knowing of God resting solely in reading scripture and listening to music?

How do you, FraudFinder, know God?

I am not offended in any way by your assumptions of me. But what I dislike is misrepresentation of any faith system. And there has been a lot of misrepresentation against Catholics. On this thread alone, two Catholic have told you that the doctrine they hold is that God is who they worship. I'm defending them, even if I don't agree with all doctrines, tenets and creeds of Catholicism. And even the traditions of your faith system were defined for you a long time ago by a person.

You are violating the very doctrine you were taught.

Romans14:1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

You esteem days and meats and drinks, but in no way can your esteeming be forced onto anyone else. So why do you judge your brother if we all stand before the same Lord Jesus Christ?

I am not going to sit here and cry or become emotional because of words typed in a virtual world, that does not exist once I log off. What is unclean to you, is unclean to you. And that's not lukewarm for me to believe this, that's your preacher Paul telling you back off in your judgements because they don't think the same way as you.

Why is it, every time a thread like this comes up, non-Catholic Christians attack Catholicism, going on about how this or that is wrong, incorrect etc.. I never see Catholics chime in to tell non-Catholic Christians what they're doing wrong, how to practice Christianity properly etc...

I only ever see Atheists attack Christianity, but in general, and whether that is right or wrong, I can understand, what I don't understand is the Christian "we're right and you're wrong" mentality. Instead of having tolerance and trying to understand. All I know is this, no matter who you are, Christian, Catholic, Atheist, Jewish, Muslim etc... NOBODY has all the answers.

Slowly the thread has been deceptively derailed. And in my observation that is what I get out of these threads.

WarminIndy
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

Typically what happens is this, when I am responding, I am writing my thoughts out as I think them. Maybe I will use the @ from now on so you know who I am talking to.

Say what you want about my faith. But I have made a stand about what is right or wrong. I don't really worry that you called me a "warm Christian" because the term is "lukewarm". But you are really taking the "hot" and "cold" in a very different meaning, without even knowing cultural reference John was making to that church.

I don't think any non-Christian on here says that I am lukewarm when it comes to my faith. He that has an ear, let him hear what the SPIRIT saith unto the CHURCHES.

But since I am directing this post to you, and only you, @FraudFinder, can you tell me how you know God? Was your knowing of God resting solely in reading scripture and listening to music?

How do you, FraudFinder, know God?

I am not offended in any way by your assumptions of me. But what I dislike is misrepresentation of any faith system. And there has been a lot of misrepresentation against Catholics. On this thread alone, two Catholic have told you that the doctrine they hold is that God is who they worship. I'm defending them, even if I don't agree with all doctrines, tenets and creeds of Catholicism. And even the traditions of your faith system were defined for you a long time ago by a person.

You are violating the very doctrine you were taught.

Romans14:1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

You esteem days and meats and drinks, but in no way can your esteeming be forced onto anyone else. So why do you judge your brother if we all stand before the same Lord Jesus Christ?

I am not going to sit here and cry or become emotional because of words typed in a virtual world, that does not exist once I log off. What is unclean to you, is unclean to you. And that's not lukewarm for me to believe this, that's your preacher Paul telling you back off in your judgements because they don't think the same way as you.

Thank you for your reply.

Before I answer your questions, I have only one question for you. Have you ever met God?

Majestic Lumen
Why is it, every time a thread like this comes up, non-Catholic Christians attack Catholicism, going on about how this or that is wrong, incorrect etc.. I never see Catholics chime in to tell non-Catholic Christians what they're doing wrong, how to practice Christianity properly etc...

I only ever see Atheists attack Christianity, but in general, and whether that is right or wrong, I can understand, what I don't understand is the Christian "we're right and you're wrong" mentality. Instead of having tolerance and trying to understand. All I know is this, no matter who you are, Christian, Catholic, Atheist, Jewish, Muslim etc... NOBODY has all the answers.

Slowly the thread has been deceptively derailed. And in my observation that is what I get out of these threads.

If you have never seen Catholics attack protestants or how a protestant should worship than either you know very little about Christianity or you are not a Christian.

Really never? Then you need to go to a few different churches or study theology.

Christians are to correct one another. We are to rebuke one another, do you know why? Did you know this is in the bible? There is a right way and a wrong way with everything and that includes what I spoke about in my post.

I never said I have all the answers, did I? And I do not know all the answers BUT I do know what it says in the bible.

What many Christians love to do is correct one another using versus from the bible that they have taken out of context which many do. Many take a single verse when they should have used the entire paragraph or they use one verse to cover their entire message again.... wrong. This is how scripture gets twisted.

It is easy to take a bible versus and twist it to make you look right.

reply to post by Fraudfinder

Your poor attempt to explain how or how not to worship is false. Talking to God in prayer is worship and talking to the saints, Mary or the angles is also a form of worship. You have twisted the true meaning of worship.

I talk to my wife, who died in 2010, every day, and often ask her to pray for me. Do you think I worship my wife?

Jesus did NOT say Oh Mary in heaven..... or Oh Gabriel in heaven, did he?

Do you not think that Catholics pray the Lord's Prayer? I say it at least three times a day, and that's pretty typical of more observant Catholics. The Liturgy of the Hours is a series of prayers, rooted in the Psalms, that also includes the Lord's Prayer, and the series -- morning prayers, daytime, evening and nighttime prayers -- are required for anyone in a Catholic vocation, and optional for the general population (I only do the morning prayer.)

Trust me, there's not much that a Protestant can teach the Catholic Church about leading a prayerful life.

I ask God to send angels for protection, I do NOT ask an angel or Mary.

Well, that's good for you, but why do you insist on criticizing someone who asks God and asks Mary to ask God? If Mary can't intercede for you, then what's the problem, and if she can, don't you think it would be a good idea to have her ask?

Fraudfinder

WarminIndy

Thank you for your reply.

Before I answer your questions, I have only one question for you. Have you ever met God?

Yes, I have.

I know know God in a very real and personal way and have accepted the knock on my heart's door to invite Jesus to dwell within my heart, to fellowship with me.

Yes, I know God.

I know God in such a way, that when I hear something that goes against what the Spirit says, then I say "you know what God, I don't understand this particular thing" and then He shows me an answer. But I couldn't get there without knowing God in the first place. Jesus is the Author and finisher of my faith. How do you know God? By the Holy Spirit. And you will notice that in every response where I post a Bible verse, I always use the same version. Why? Because it is out of that version that first told me how I need to know God personally.

Jesus said "You search the scriptures, for in them you think have eternal life, but they speak of ME". It doesn't matter how much we read, if we think the scriptures alone are all we need to know about God and have eternal salvation, then that is not knowing God, that's knowing about God.

reply to post by Fraudfinder

Thank you for your reply.

Before I answer your questions, I have only one question for you. Have you ever met God?

Do you know that you're talking to an unwavering, faithful and passionate Christian in Indy?

When you ask that question, I have to wonder. Christians believe in a personal God, and mystical Christians are all about the spiritual experience, as are, say, Pentecostals. I guess, sometimes "our" personal relationship with "God" isn't enough, and we think our understanding needs to jive with someone else's personal experience or viewpoint of what is valid spirituality.

The fact is, in my opinion, the only way Indy could ever meet "your" God, is through "His" reflection in your words, actions and attitudes.

adjensen
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

Your poor attempt to explain how or how not to worship is false. Talking to God in prayer is worship and talking to the saints, Mary or the angles is also a form of worship. You have twisted the true meaning of worship.

I talk to my wife, who died in 2010, every day, and often ask her to pray for me. Do you think I worship my wife?

Jesus did NOT say Oh Mary in heaven..... or Oh Gabriel in heaven, did he?

Do you not think that Catholics pray the Lord's Prayer? I say it at least three times a day, and that's pretty typical of more observant Catholics. The Liturgy of the Hours is a series of prayers, rooted in the Psalms, that also includes the Lord's Prayer, and the series -- morning prayers, daytime, evening and nighttime prayers -- are required for anyone in a Catholic vocation, and optional for the general population (I only do the morning prayer.)

Trust me, there's not much that a Protestant can teach the Catholic Church about leading a prayerful life.

I ask God to send angels for protection, I do NOT ask an angel or Mary.

Well, that's good for you, but why do you insist on criticizing someone who asks God and asks Mary to ask God? If Mary can't intercede for you, then what's the problem, and if she can, don't you think it would be a good idea to have her ask?

Let me get this right, you talk to your dead wife? Does she answer you? I am sorry to inform you but the dead can NOT talk to the living. You are talking to a spirit that is not your wife. Please research this.

I do not mean to offend the Catholics, my wife is Catholic.

I am trying to make a point - no one other than Jesus can intercede to God for you. The bible is very clear on this point.

I understand this is a sensitive point and I am not pointing fingers. But false worship which includes praying wrong is wrong.

windword
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

Thank you for your reply.

Before I answer your questions, I have only one question for you. Have you ever met God?

Do you know that you're talking to an unwavering, faithful and passionate Christian in Indy?

When you ask that question, I have to wonder. Christians believe in a personal God, and mystical Christians are all about the spiritual experience, as are, say, Pentecostals. I guess, sometimes "our" personal relationship with "God" isn't enough, and we think our understanding needs to jive with someone else's personal experience or viewpoint of what is valid spirituality.

The fact is, in my opinion, the only way Indy could ever meet "your" God, is through "His" reflection in your words, actions and attitudes.

edit on 19-11-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Is there a reason why you have to tell me you are an unwavering and faithful Christian? Sounds like pride talking to me.

You continue to talk about Pentecostals, why?

What do you mean with "Indy"?

You have not answered my question. Have you met God?

reply to post by Fraudfinder


@ Majestic Lemon and FraudFinder (see, without changing the subject and directing at persons)

FraudFinder found occasion to rebuke me. But WarminIndy didn't take it personal, because WarminIndy knows that FraudFinder must be faithful to what FraudFinder believes.

There is no fight between FraudFinder and WarminIndy, just a little scuffle over doctrinal beliefs, and it is ok for FraudFinder to ask me these things. After all, WarminIndy knows that WarminIndy must be quick to give answer for the hope that lies within WarminIndy.

But we should never think someone else doesn't have hope within them. I grew up a non-Catholic in a Catholic community surrounded by Catholics that I went to school with. We never understood each other and never was able to know anything beyond what our parents taught.

But I know that people change when they grow up. I never hold people to what they were like as children. But one day, I went to my cousin's daughter's First Communion. Now, not being Catholic, I kind of got tired of kneeling and standing, and kneeling and standing, and...kneeling and standing. But that's what they do. In the reading, a man and woman came up to read from the Bible. I went to school with both of these people, I knew them as children. The man was kind of boring to listen to, I don't think he was really sincere about what he believed. But the woman, who had one time been such a bully to me, when she read her part, I knew the sincerity of her heart and faith, and I knew that she knew God, because I recognized the same sincerity in the Spirit. She read the words of Jesus Christ with so much honesty and faith.

After the service, she came to me to hug me, a girl who had bullied me when we were children, and I said "I felt God your reading" and she replied back to me "I see God in your eyes". And that's why I can't say they are wrong, because there are those who do have sincerity and do search God in a very personal way.

Peace that surpasses all understanding, was there with us, in our midst.

Fraudfinder

windword
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

Thank you for your reply.

Before I answer your questions, I have only one question for you. Have you ever met God?

Do you know that you're talking to an unwavering, faithful and passionate Christian in Indy?

When you ask that question, I have to wonder. Christians believe in a personal God, and mystical Christians are all about the spiritual experience, as are, say, Pentecostals. I guess, sometimes "our" personal relationship with "God" isn't enough, and we think our understanding needs to jive with someone else's personal experience or viewpoint of what is valid spirituality.

The fact is, in my opinion, the only way Indy could ever meet "your" God, is through "His" reflection in your words, actions and attitudes.

edit on 19-11-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Is there a reason why you have to tell me you are an unwavering and faithful Christian? Sounds like pride talking to me.

You continue to talk about Pentecostals, why?

What do you mean with "Indy"?

You have not answered my question. Have you met God?

Yes, I answered you. YES, I have met God, in a very real and personal way.

I grew up in a Pentecostal faith system, I know what it is.

But let me ask you this, since you know there are now three types of Pentecostal, Oneness, Trinitarian and Charismatic, which one are you?

reply to post by Fraudfinder

Let me get this right, you talk to your dead wife?

Yes, I do.

Does she answer you?

No, she does not, not aurally, anyway.

I am sorry to inform you but the dead can NOT talk to the living. You are talking to a spirit that is not your wife. Please research this.

The dead are well aware of what is happening to the living:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. (Revelation of John 6:9-11 NIV)

The Saints are praying a Psalm of Complaint or Lament -- they know the state of the Earth, and pray to God to hurry up and deliver justice.

So, no, I don't have a conversation with my wife. I speak to her, I believe that she can hear me, and that she prays for me, just as she prayed for me when she was still here. Scripturally, there is nothing to say that cannot be the case.

reply to post by Fraudfinder


Missed this bit, sorry:

I am trying to make a point - no one other than Jesus can intercede to God for you. The bible is very clear on this point.

Jesus said "no one comes to the Father except through him", as regards salvation, he never said don't pray for anyone other than yourself. You seem to be saying that you never ask others to pray for you, and refuse to pray for others. Is that really the case? Because this says otherwise:

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. (James 5:16 NIV)

Do you believe that God ignores the prayers of righteous people, just because they are dead?

adjensen
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

Let me get this right, you talk to your dead wife?

Yes, I do.

Does she answer you?

No, she does not, not aurally, anyway.

I am sorry to inform you but the dead can NOT talk to the living. You are talking to a spirit that is not your wife. Please research this.

The dead are well aware of what is happening to the living:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. (Revelation of John 6:9-11 NIV)

The Saints are praying a Psalm of Complaint or Lament -- they know the state of the Earth, and pray to God to hurry up and deliver justice.

So, no, I don't have a conversation with my wife. I speak to her, I believe that she can hear me, and that she prays for me, just as she prayed for me when she was still here. Scripturally, there is nothing to say that cannot be the case.

I understand.

You stated your wife does not talk with you aurally so how does she communicate with you?

◄ Ecclesiastes 9:5 ► For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

reply to post by windword


@Windword

(See, still directing as advised)

Thank you. You and I may be at odds in most cases, but I thank you.

Sometimes, when I hear some Christians talk about God, I don't know the God they are talking about. Sometimes they have a very strange god to me.

And as far as Pentecostals go, too many Pentecostals are seeking an outward manifestation instead of an inward revelation. I have seen it all, you probably have as well.

I've been to churches, that yes, Wiccan and Pagans can make the charge that some of these Pentecostals are using magick, but calling it a different name. Even my brother, who is Celtic Pagan, says the same thing. He recognizes it.

I would prefer one revelation of truth over a million outward manifestations. I don't have to bark like a dog or have convulsions, calling it "The Spirit came down and moved". That's not God, that's using magick without really knowing what spirit is being called upon. Windword, when you see crazy Pentecostals, you have every right to believe they are using magick. Yes, I remember the story about your mother, and we had a go around over that one, but I would agree that she did use black magick. She didn't know she did, and that's what a big problem with Pentecostals is.

Fraudfinder
Let me get this right, you talk to your dead wife? Does she answer you? I am sorry to inform you but the dead can NOT talk to the living. You are talking to a spirit that is not your wife.

That's YOUR belief that the dead aren't aware of what is going on. And that's YOUR belief that she can't hear her husband when he speaks to her in heaven from Earth. Well .. (to use your words) ... I am sorry to inform you but you have no clue as to if the dead can hear the living or not. You'll find out when you are dead. And in the mean time, it hurts nothing for this man to speak to his wife who has gone on to heaven. (and yes .. I do believe she probably hears him just fine)

no one other than Jesus can intercede to God for you. The bible is very clear on this point.

- Catholics believe that ANYONE can pray for ANYONE else. Do you ask people to pray for you? If so, then you are doing exactly what Catholics do. They ask Mary and the people in Heaven to pray to God for them.

- As for your comment about the bible being clear ... the bible tells people to pray for each other. So Catholics asking Mary or St. Peter or whoever in heaven to pray for them to God isn't against scripture.

- AND ... your comment 'the bible is very clear on this point' ... my note to that is ... the bible doesn't contain all truth. Even the bible says it doesn't contain all truth. It doesnt' contain all that Jesus taught. 'All the books in the world' couldn't hold what Jesus taught. And Jesus said that He had much more truth to teach but that the people weren't ready for it yet.

So when I see things from Christians saying 'but the bible says this .... ' ... I find myself saying .. 'so what?'

adjensen
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

Missed this bit, sorry:

I am trying to make a point - no one other than Jesus can intercede to God for you. The bible is very clear on this point.

Jesus said "no one comes to the Father except through him", as regards salvation, he never said don't pray for anyone other than yourself. You seem to be saying that you never ask others to pray for you, and refuse to pray for others. Is that really the case? Because this says otherwise:

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. (James 5:16 NIV)

Do you believe that God ignores the prayers of righteous people, just because they are dead?

edit on 19-11-2013 by adjensen because: (no reason given)

Greetings,

This is not my point. My point is the proper way to pray. Jesus gave us an example......Our father in heaven, not Our Mary in heaven etc.....

I often ask my Christian friends to pray for me. I find this very important!

But when people pray to Mary (Mother of Jesus) or an angel or saint .... this is wrong. Our prayers are to directed to God in Jesus name.

God does listen to prayers of righteous people who are alive.

◄ Ecclesiastes 9:5 ► For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

WarminIndy

Fraudfinder

windword
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

Thank you for your reply.

Before I answer your questions, I have only one question for you. Have you ever met God?

Do you know that you're talking to an unwavering, faithful and passionate Christian in Indy?

When you ask that question, I have to wonder. Christians believe in a personal God, and mystical Christians are all about the spiritual experience, as are, say, Pentecostals. I guess, sometimes "our" personal relationship with "God" isn't enough, and we think our understanding needs to jive with someone else's personal experience or viewpoint of what is valid spirituality.

The fact is, in my opinion, the only way Indy could ever meet "your" God, is through "His" reflection in your words, actions and attitudes.

edit on 19-11-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Is there a reason why you have to tell me you are an unwavering and faithful Christian? Sounds like pride talking to me.

You continue to talk about Pentecostals, why?

What do you mean with "Indy"?

You have not answered my question. Have you met God?

Yes, I answered you. YES, I have met God, in a very real and personal way.

I grew up in a Pentecostal faith system, I know what it is.

But let me ask you this, since you know there are now three types of Pentecostal, Oneness, Trinitarian and Charismatic, which one are you?

Sorry if my previous posts were not clear but I believe in the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit all three being God.

Fraudfinder

adjensen
reply to post by Fraudfinder

 

Let me get this right, you talk to your dead wife?

Yes, I do.

Does she answer you?

No, she does not, not aurally, anyway.

I am sorry to inform you but the dead can NOT talk to the living. You are talking to a spirit that is not your wife. Please research this.

The dead are well aware of what is happening to the living:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. (Revelation of John 6:9-11 NIV)

The Saints are praying a Psalm of Complaint or Lament -- they know the state of the Earth, and pray to God to hurry up and deliver justice.

So, no, I don't have a conversation with my wife. I speak to her, I believe that she can hear me, and that she prays for me, just as she prayed for me when she was still here. Scripturally, there is nothing to say that cannot be the case.

I understand.

You stated your wife does not talk with you aurally so how does she communicate with you?

◄ Ecclesiastes 9:5 ► For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

When the rich man in hell lifted up his eyes and saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom cried out "Father Abraham, send Lazarus with water to cool my tongue for I am tormented in these flames. Abraham said "you, in your life, had wealth and comfort, but Lazarus had none. I cannot send Lazarus to you, because there is a great gulf afixed between us.

The rich man then said "Send Lazarus to my brothers and warn them to not come this place" and Abraham said "They had Moses and the prophets, and if they won't listen to them, then why would they listen to someone who came back from the dead"?

Jesus taught that, a conversation between heaven and hell. Adjensen's wife isn't coming back from the dead, but Adjensen already believes Moses and the prophets and the one who did come back from the dead. If that great conversation happened, as Jesus taught, then the dead are aware of where they are.


Is adjensen a man or a woman? in either way, the dead spouse of adjensen is well aware of where they are.