Did Exodus Really Happen? Most likely NOT

reply to post by Krazysh0t


That is absolutely ridicules. You would have to clear the libraries around the world if all material were scrutinized for % of historical accuracy, fully factual or not ect. This site would have to be shut down if it had to meet that standard.

I have a question, if the Exodus never happened what did it profit the ancient Hebrews to make up such an event?

Many of the OT accounts do have a bases in fact.

Years of studying biblical history from the minimalist to Maximalism points of view, and from the archeological standpoint I personally think it did happen.

There are also those who stand to benefit greatly from wiping out the historicity of the Biblical texts, biblical archeology uncovers proof all the time, it is not all myth.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

How is it there are digs all over the world and no one questions the veracity of other ancient civilizations claims the same way they do those of the history of the Jews?

I also think there is a little grain of truth to all myth and legend.

Still reading those Ebooks I posted, I say yes there is a preponderance of evidence that there was an Exodus.

reply to post by Logarock


I don't see how you are comparing actual physical evidence in books to contradictions presented in the bible. I don't know about you, but I've never read a textbook that claimed one thing in one chapter then claimed the complete opposite in the next chapter (and was taken seriously as a textbook). The bible does this many times. Basically, my entire argument can be boiled down to that the bible, due to its many contradictions, cannot be used as a primary or secondary source.

The mere presence of a contradiction in claims means that either one of or both of those two claims is/are false. If there is a proven falsehood in a source of information, it cannot be taken seriously as a legitimate source. Just because I can demonstrate contradictions in claims in the bible, doesn't put undue scrutiny on every other book in existence (of course there is no such thing as too much scrutiny).

Logarock
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

That is absolutely ridicules. You would have to clear the libraries around the world if all material were scrutinized for % of historical accuracy, fully factual or not ect. This site would have to be shut down if it had to meet that standard.

Isn't the Bible alleged by believers to be unique in that it's the "word of God," though? That isn't generally held to be true for the other books in the library or the posts on ATS. The issue, I believe, lies with the claims of Biblical infallibility and how to settle these claims with the apparent contradictions and/or errors the text contains.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Well in the gnosis, the old testament, inner meanings which are all positive, are contained within the new testament, and vice versa. They agree. But you have to have the Love to realize that anything smiting and harsh is not God/Goodness, and thus some kind of manipulatioin.

What I don't understand is the next step is noticing something that stands out, ie genesis 32 30 for example, it changes the whole book, and its in the first chapter. People gloss over it. They try to counter one scripture with another as if in a boxing match, take that, I'll knock that one down. Instead of follow the clues, and then with prayer, meditation, others just start to leap out naturally.

In the end, any passage that seemed harsh and weird, or murderous or avenging, that does not give way to a metaphor, about the chakra's or some inner awakening, was put in there by some power hungry human, ie Rome.

Ex. www.spiritofthescripture.com...

This about the 3 throne into the fiery furnace. The crucible of the ego refined by fire for the kundalini or I would say Spirit filling us and awakening.

Stormdancer777
I have a question, if the Exodus never happened what did it profit the ancient Hebrews to make up such an event?

This is irrelevant to the discussion. Motive for making up a story has nothing to do with if the story is true or not.

Many of the OT accounts do have a bases in fact.

Probably true, since the OT wasn't written down until many years and generations after they happened, it is easy to see how a giant game of telephone occurred throughout the ages. Heck just look at a fisherman retelling the story of his biggest catch and how the size of the fish keeps getting bigger and bigger with each retelling. That is just one person, when many people are repeating the story to their younger generations, exaggerations happen and get bigger and bigger.

Years of studying biblical history from the minimalist to Maximalism points of view, and from the archeological standpoint I personally think it did happen.

There are also those who stand to benefit greatly from wiping out the historicity of the Biblical texts, biblical archeology uncovers proof all the time, it is not all myth.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I already responded to that thread (I'm the second post after the OP) so I won't repeat my musings here.

How is it there are digs all over the world and no one questions the veracity of other ancient civilizations claims the same way they do those of the history of the Jews?

Because no one believes the myths of those other ancient civilizations. There is no reason to debunk those stories, they are already debunked in 100% of the populations' minds. People still believe the myths in the bible, so they need to be scrutinized for their veracity. Believing a lie is foolish, and everyone should be aware if that is what they are doing, even if it means shaking your entire belief structure.

I also think there is a little grain of truth to all myth and legend.

You already said something similar, so see above about OT stories having a basis in truth.

IPUWER PAPYRUS - LEIDEN 344 TORAH - EXODUS

2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.

2:10 The river is blood.

2:10 Men shrink from tasting - human beings, and thirst after water

3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin.
7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood.

7:21 ...there was blood thoughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank.

7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.
2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.

10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps... The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish

6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.

5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.
9:23-24 ...and the fire ran along the ground... there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous.

9:25 ...and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field.

9:31-32 ...and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe.

But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up.

10:15 ...there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.
5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan...

9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together.
9:3 ...the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field... and there shall be a very grievous sickness.

9:19 ...gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field...

9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.
9:11 The land is without light 10:22 And there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt.
4:3 (5:6) Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls.

6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.

6:3 The prison is ruined.

2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.

3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison.

12:30 ...there was not a house where there was not one dead.

12:30 ...there was a great cry in Egypt.
7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land. 13:21 ... by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.
3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze... are fastened on the neck of female slaves. 12:35-36 ...and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favour them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Why is it irrelevant?

I don't see it as irrelevant.

I have a question, if the Exodus never happened what did it profit the ancient Hebrews to make up such an event?

reply to post by Stormdancer777


It would seem just as many civilizations have an embellished story of their beginning and history its not unreasonable to assume they have done the same thing here. I make no argument that there may be some truth to the story but I have never came across anything that would support the scale that the biblical narrative suggests. The reasoning for making fantastic stories about a cultures origins is to inflate the people to be proud of their heritage possibly giving them more self worth as a culture and individual.

How is it there are digs all over the world and no one questions the veracity of other ancient civilizations claims the same way they do those of the history of the Jews?

I would simply say this is due to the massive impact these religions have on the shaping of our current and past societies. I would not go as far as to say no one questions other civilizations because they do but this particular subject gets much more attention due to its impact worldwide in mans history.

One thing I have always found odd about those of faith of any kind(particular those related to the bible since I was raised in the church) is how they can view one story as allegory and another as fact when they are told in the same fashion without any implication as to them being anything other than recorded history. Outside of those who base it on archeology and other sciences, I fail to see how one can look at say the story of adam and eve and the exodus and dismiss one and not the other. Seems strange to me.

In the early 1800s, a papyrus was found in Egypt called The Admonitions of an Egyptian. It is now in the Leiden Museum in Holland. An Egyptian named Ipuwer wrote it at the end of the Middle Kingdom, around 1650 B.C.E.; scribes copied it in the 19th Dynasty, in the 1200s B.C.E. Below are some of the amazingly similar plagues described in both the Ipuwer papyrus and the Bible. (The biblical plagues befell the Egyptians at the time of Moses and the Exodus, which has been dated sometime between 1570 to 1290 B.C.E.)

Have you read the Egyptian book of the dead ?
Compare it to some scriptures in the Bible.

The Shiphra Papyrus
Aper-el's Tomb

Was there a Hebrew advisor to Egyptian kings at the time of the Exodus?

The Israelites' Travel Itinerary and the Egyptian Maps

Did the cities the Israelites camped in on their way to Canaan really exist?

Krahmalkov discusses a number of biblical sites that appear to be corroborated by Egyptian sources. Among them are Dibon (Numbers 13:45), a city where the Israelites' camped on their way to invade Canaan, and Hebron (Numbers 13:22), another city targeted for invasion.

Krahmalkov concedes the lack of archaeological evidence, but he points out that the Egyptians thoroughly mapped these sites, as well as a number of other regions mentioned in the Bible. The mapping was done in the Late Bronze age, in Dynasties XVIII and XIX (according to his dating, 1560-1200 B.C.E. He dates the Exodus in the range of 1400-1200 B.C.E.). Also included are the cities of Iyyn and Abel (biblical Abel #tim) both in Numbers 13: 45-50; Yom haMelach (Numbers 34:3); and Athar (Hebrew Atharim) (Numbers 21:1). The maps survive in list form, and they are found on the temple walls of ancient Egyptian kings. Since they are documented in the most important extra-biblical source -- Egypt -- the evidence is strong that these cities indeed existed at the time of the Exodus.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

reply to post by Unity_99


That seems like a copout, if it is harsh, weird, or murderous, it was put in by the Romans. Since the meaning of the first two words are subjective, you could apply them to many passages in the bible. I mean for instance, the idea that God created a woman from the rib of a man despite all science saying this is impossible, is pretty damn weird to me. The flood epic is both harsh and murderous to me as well, wipe out the WHOLE world to get rid of a few bad apples? Yet that is a widely retold story from the bible and highly believed.

Since I can't trust most passages in the bible since they could be harsh, weird, or murderous, I can't trust the entire bible. Going by your line of reasoning, the entire bible looks like a giant propaganda device used by the Romans (which is entirely possible, but is a conspiracy theory for another discussion).

reply to post by Krazysh0t

I mean for instance, the idea that God created a woman from the rib of a man despite all science saying this is impossible,

Wouldn't a rib have DNA... which is what we would use to clone people sometime in the future?

Hmmm

Stormdancer777
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

Why is it irrelevant?

I don't see it as irrelevant.

Because it doesn't shed any light on if the story is made up or not. The ancient Hebrew priests don't necessarily need a motive to lie. People lie all the time without a motive. They are called pathological liars. They aren't a new phenomenon either.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


I'm not sure that is proving what you think it would be proving. What that proves is that those bible passages are most likely ripped off from Egyptian texts.

Akragon
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

I mean for instance, the idea that God created a woman from the rib of a man despite all science saying this is impossible,

Wouldn't a rib have DNA... which is what we would use to clone people sometime in the future?

Hmmm

Could be, you'd have to take some liberties with the story and not read it literally though. I find it dubious that parts of the bible aren't meant to be taken literally while others are meant to be taken literally. This seems like another copout to me. This means any passage could be an allegory or the literal truth, there is no way of knowing. It again throws the veracity of the accounts into question. How do we know which passages are which? Answer: we don't, hence why you can find people saying just about any passage in the bible is supposed to be taken literally and people saying it was supposed to be taken figuratively.

ETA: One more thing, if what you say is true, how did the gender change? Where did the extra X chromosome come from? I mean if God took a rib from Adam to clone him (also why a rib, wouldn't it made more sense to take a blood sample in this case?), why wasn't the clone male?

Krazysh0t
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

I'm not sure that is proving what you think it would be proving. What that proves is that those bible passages are most likely ripped off from Egyptian texts.

Show us some of these rip offs from Egyptian texts.

reply to post by Logarock


That wasn't meant to be taken as a stand alone text, plus I wasn't putting forth the evidence. I was telling Stormdancer that the evidence HE presented demonstrated that those bible passages were ripped from Egyptian texts. I don't understand how you failed to get that point.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Yes all people lie.

There are also lies by omission.

It would also profit some people much had Israel never existed at all.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

Could be, you'd have to take some liberties with the story and not read it literally though. I find it dubious that parts of the bible aren't meant to be taken literally while others are meant to be taken literally.

Actually for the most part its pretty obvious... though perhaps im just used to reading scripture...

Like... adam and eve... obviously its a "dubious" story... a talking snake or donkey? Really?

This seems like another copout to me. This means any passage could be an allegory or the literal truth, there is no way of knowing.

It really depends on who the "speaker" is... and in some cases who the writer or narrator is... or is supposed to be...

One more thing, if what you say is true, how did the gender change? Where did the extra X chromosome come from? I mean if God took a rib from Adam to clone him (also why a rib, wouldn't it made more sense to take a blood sample in this case?), why wasn't the clone male?

I wasn't actually saying God cloned Eve, it was just a general statement... perhaps in the "ancient alien" theory it might apply though...

The story of Adam and Eve is just that.... a story...

At no point in the earths history were there just One woman, and one man... it makes no sense

Krazysh0t
reply to post by Logarock

 

I don't see how you are comparing actual physical evidence in books to contradictions presented in the bible. I don't know about you, but I've never read a textbook that claimed one thing in one chapter then claimed the complete opposite in the next chapter (and was taken seriously as a textbook). The bible does this many times. Basically, my entire argument can be boiled down to that the bible, due to its many contradictions, cannot be used as a primary or secondary source.

It has as much right to being a primary source as any work on any subject that is contradicted by information from other research on the topic.

Besides you want to place a lot of evidence on so called contradictions to a list that no one here has the time to refute. Having had a look at some of those contradictions they can be refuted. Many of them are just simple minded.