Witnesses To Roswell Book.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Do you have a date for that newspaper article? Your link isn't working right now, "Server maintenance" Thanks for the other link, that one is working for me.

Sunday July 6. Brazel talked to the radio presenter.
Tuesday July 8. Blanchard phoned Haut and dictated the press release to him.
Wednesday July 9. The military searched news offices to retrieve copies of the original press release and any documents that were contrary to the weather balloon explanation. They escorted Brazel to the news offices and radio stations to retract his story. They held him for another three days after this.

This information is from the book, maybe your link might be working later.

LEL01
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

Do you have a date for that newspaper article? Your link isn't working right now, "Server maintenance" Thanks for the other link, that one is working for me.

1. The date is right in the link, which you can see by clicking "quote" on that post.
2. Usually for links down you can still see the link in archive.org.
3. Putting a little of that text in a search gives 20 other sources saying the same thing. These articles aren't hard to find, but some people seem to avoid looking at them. Here's one of the other 20 sources:

www.angelfire.com...

The military searched news offices to retrieve copies of the original press release and any documents that were contrary to the weather balloon explanation.

Read the last part of the article, where Brazel says he's certain it wasn't a weather balloon. (He was right, it wasn't).

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Thanks for the new link, that news article is in the book but it's a bit small for my old eyes to read it properly, I had managed to read some of the article but not all of it.

This is what happened according to the book, Brazel heard what sounded like an explosion in the night, the next day he found the debris field and the sheep refused to go through it. Most of the ranchers in the area travelled to the ranch to see it and some of the debris got passed around a Corona bar.

Sunday July 6. Brazel took some of the debris to Roswell and he talked to the radio presenter.

Monday July 7. He took Marcel and Cavitt to the debris field, later that evening he told his story to the owner of the radio station who recorded the interview at his home.

Tuesday July 8. Brazel was taken and held by the military, the military had a meeting where they passed around the debris and couldn't identify it. Ramey and Dubose were at the meeting, they knew about the bodies at that time. It was after this meeting when Blanchard phoned Haut and dictated the press release to him. Then Marcel took his debris to Ramey's office at Fort Worth, they switched the debris for the balloon. After dark, trucks with large headlights were seen heading to another location, it didn't say which one.

Wednesday July 9. The military searched news offices to retrieve copies of the original press release and any documents that were contrary to the weather balloon explanation. They took Brazel to the news offices and radio stations to retract his story, they made Brazel change his story but it wasn't just his story, it was theirs as well.
I agree, it wasn't a weather balloon.

LEL01
Over 600 first and second hand witnesses seems like a lot of people have talked.

That's just the point. It seems like a lot, but once you get right down to brass tacks, what do we really have to show for it? What absolute, definitive piece of evidence can you point to and say, "This is unimpeachable proof that this happened?"

There isn't any. It doesn't add up to anything. It all just fades away.

reply to post by LEL01


Well, my point being that you can't read books like this and take everything they say as gospel without doing some background investigation for yourself. Finding if the claims can be verified and if they have facts left out- either purposely or unknowingly. When faced with the extraordinary claims of UFOs and aliens, I think diligent background research is especially critical.

People frequently comment on this board that skeptics/debunkers/non-believers are close-minded when it comes to cases like these. When in fact it's the believers that don't see beyond what they read in books, see and read online, or on television. Allowing their opinions to be formed and/or swayed by others and not their own research.

LEL01
Wednesday July 9. The military searched news offices to retrieve copies of the original press release and any documents that were contrary to the weather balloon explanation. They took Brazel to the news offices and radio stations to retract his story, they made Brazel change his story but it wasn't just his story, it was theirs as well.
I agree, it wasn't a weather balloon.

If they were going to change the story to be more consistent with the weather balloon explanation, why would they have Brazel say it definitely wasn't a weather balloon, and he knew it because he had found two weather balloons before and it wasn't like either one of those?

Don't you see the inconsistency of that claim? If they were really calling the shots on the story, why wouldn't they have Brazel say it was a weather balloon? Seems to me he said the exact opposite, so I take the claims about Brazel following their orders about what to say to the newspaper reporter with a grain of salt, a very big one.

Also Marcel's description was very similar to Brazel's, and Marcel was a key witness, wasn't he?

LEL01
........
Did you know it was announced in the 1990s that everyone could talk about Roswell? I get the feeling that those keeping the secret had other ideas, some people are still afraid to talk......

The original USAF report "Fact v Fiction in the New Mexico Desert" assembled in 1994 confirms that any previous security oaths would not apply to those who were interviewed for their report. They were free to discuss anything "classified".

While the historical document search was in progress, it was decided to attempt to locate and interview several persons identified as still living who could possibly answer questions generated by the research. This had never been officially done before, although most of the persons contacted reported that they had also been contacted in the past by some of the listed authors or other private researchers. In order to counter possible future arguments that the persons interviewed were still "covering up" material because of prior security oaths, the interviewees were provided with authorization from either the Secretary of the Air Force or the Senior Security Official of the Air Force that would officially allow discussion of classified information, if applicable, or free them from any prior restriction in discussing the matter, if such existed.

Source : Page 16 Full PDF

Of course you could argue that if the Air Force were interviewing them then they would still be nervous about what they said.

It's a massive 800+ pages (which I have still to mull over) .It concludes Roswell was all a mis-identified Mogul balloon, the wreckage was tinfoil, paper, tape and sticks. It includes details that a "black box" was recovered and this was thought to have been a radiosonde.

As for the Roswell TV movie I watched it again. It's an entertaining and well made TV movie to be honest. I'd also forgotten how it ropes in the story of James Forrestal's rather strange death into the plot and the mysterious character played by Martin Sheen. He meets Marcel and reveals how soon after 1947 bases were built out in the desert to study the "aliens & saucers" and back engineer the technology.

What are we to believe?

I'm still inclined to think the materials found by Brazel were from a balloon and we have to remember that the term "Flying Disc/Saucer" was only a couple of weeks old and had not taken on the meaning we have today. So any reference at the time have to be taken in that context. Perhaps that's the point when the story effectively died because there really was nothing more to it other than Mogul being top secret at the time.

But then maybe this part of it was all a smokescreen for something else happening?

ETA:

There is an interesting article by Richard Dolan with speculation on Forrestal's death here :

rdolan.hostcentric.com...

reply to post by Blue Shift


I can't give you the proof you want, I'm sure we all want to see the proof. I do believe the proof is there, hidden from us, but I don't believe we will ever get to see it. I could point you to the V shaped gouge that was unearthed in an archaeological dig, but I know that's not proof.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


I don't claim to have all the answers, but some people think Brazel was blurting out the truth at the last moment.

We know the military guys waited outside the door at the radio station while Brazel retracted his story, so I would guess they did the same thing at the newspaper offices.
That first newspaper article on July 8. came from the military not Brazel, it was their own story they made him retract.

They had him for a day before this, but why did they hold on to him for another three days after he retracted the story?

reply to post by mirageman


Thanks for digging up that information, I will be downloading the PDFs but it will probably take the rest of my life to get through reading everything.

I know I would be worried about talking to the Air Force, after years of fear of what would happen if I talked about it.

Interesting that they mention the black box, I'd only heard about that once before. I've just been looking at images of radiosonde and sonobuoy, I didn't see anything that matches what La Paz described. I did see black boxes but not seamless and they probably wouldn't be weightless. I'm still trying to figure out why they would hire a meteor expert to determine the speed and trajectory at the time of impact.

I noticed in the Forrestal story that friends commented on his growing paranoia, he was convinced that men were following him, This is the same thing that happened to the secretary from the hospital who they claimed "committed suicide."

I've only watched the movie once and skipped through it a couple of times, I didn't want it to cloud my judgement of what happened. You know how movies are made to attract viewers, but it was a good movie. Maybe I should sit back and watch it again to take a break from all the reading.

LEL01
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

Thanks for the new link, that news article is in the book but it's a bit small for my old eyes to read it properly, I had managed to read some of the article but not all of it.

This is what happened according to the book, Brazel heard what sounded like an explosion in the night, the next day he found the debris field and the sheep refused to go through it. Most of the ranchers in the area travelled to the ranch to see it and some of the debris got passed around a Corona bar.

Sunday July 6. Brazel took some of the debris to Roswell and he talked to the radio presenter.

Monday July 7. He took Marcel and Cavitt to the debris field, later that evening he told his story to the owner of the radio station who recorded the interview at his home.

Tuesday July 8. Brazel was taken and held by the military, the military had a meeting where they passed around the debris and couldn't identify it. Ramey and Dubose were at the meeting, they knew about the bodies at that time. It was after this meeting when Blanchard phoned Haut and dictated the press release to him. Then Marcel took his debris to Ramey's office at Fort Worth, they switched the debris for the balloon. After dark, trucks with large headlights were seen heading to another location, it didn't say which one.

Wednesday July 9. The military searched news offices to retrieve copies of the original press release and any documents that were contrary to the weather balloon explanation. They took Brazel to the news offices and radio stations to retract his story, they made Brazel change his story but it wasn't just his story, it was theirs as well.
I agree, it wasn't a weather balloon.

Your quote was right on and the Corona bar where Mac Brazel stopped was owned by Jesse Wade, his son Chuck Wade was 8 years old. Now Chuck along with Art Campbell in 2004 rediscovered the July 1947 UFO crash on the Plains of San Augustine, New Mexico...Analysis Report on Metal Samples from the 1947 UFO Crash on the Plains of San Augustine,New Mexico...Lab Analysis ....Steve Colbern

reply to post by meteorlima


Thank you for posting that link, it's the most information I've seen about the San Agustin crash. I can't say I understood most of it but I did understand " These results are very unusual." and " too advanced to have been produced by the technology of that time period."

I really do need that break from reading now and I've got so much more of it to do.

reply to post by LEL01


Interview with Chuck Wade: Subject: July 1947 UFO Crash on the Plains of San Augustine, New Mexico...Finding the 1947 UFO Crash on The Plains of San Augustine, New Mexico

The Roswell Report Case Closed (1997) has to be commended for basically taking on popular culture and trying to explain away the story as something rational. It puts the UFO/Alien story down to honest mistakes, confusion due to the passage of time and also hoaxing.

Some of it's laughable when it tries to explain an alien being sighted in the Roswell "Walker Military Hospital" in 1947 as a Capt. Dan Fulgham. He had been struck on the head by a balloon, causing extreme swelling. This incident took place in 1959. The crash dummies were the aliens part does not really need mentioning.

But then it does also include some interesting investigation. For example they tried to track down the nurse that Glen Dennis spoke to and eventually came to the conclusion that it was a Lt. Eileen M. Fanton.









The report also shows genuine photos of the transportation of what has to now be considered an extra-terrestrial craft.





Perhaps you should all read it?

all of this is very interesting i never knew nothing about the blackbox but back in 93 i remember information was coming out about people looking in the hangars and i remember seeing a photo of a ufo ship in the hangar by a guy claiming to be a mp officer but if you look for it now its no where to be found on the internet but looking at that first photo i can tell that was the same ufo

There must be something to the story or it wouldn`t have lasted this long or have gotten off the ground in the first place.

Try as i might I just can`t picture how one person ( brazel) could take a routine weather balloon crash and turn it into a massive 600+ person conspiracy about a crashed UFO.

I`m picturing this rancher riding around and tending the sheep when he comes across yet another crashed weather balloon,but this time instead of just calling the military to come and get the balloon like he has done before, he has this crazy idea that he can somehow convince people that it is a UFO.

How would you even start to try to convince even one other person to conspire to create a false story about a UFO crash let alone over 600+ people including members of the military?

aside from this incident has the military ever made a press release misidentifing a weather balloon as a crashed UFO? If not then why this time?

In 1947 did the military routinely make press reports about recovered crashed weather balloons and then fly the balloon remains to fort worth or wright patterson AFB in ohio? If not then why this time?

At the time of the press release by the military did any eyewitnesses come forward to refute the claim by the military that they had recovered a UFO?
Surely brazel himself would have immediately came forward and said " No it`s not a UFO the military is wrong! it`s just another weather balloon i saw it myself first hand"

Put yourself in his shoes if you had found other weather balloons and knew without a doubt that this was also a weather balloon would you come forward to refute the military`s public statement that it found a UFO?
Wouldn`t you immediately come forward to expose the government`s attempt at creating a possible hoax of recovering a UFO?

so, I`m left wondering why, between the time the press release was made by the military and the time the military corrected themselves, no eyewitnesses came forward to refute the military`s claim that they had recovered a UFO.
I can think of only 2 possible reasons:

1) the military had already in record time conspired with all of the eyewitnesses to not reveal the truth that it was not a UFO.

or

2) it really was a UFO.

atlantafallkids
all of this is very interesting i never knew nothing about the blackbox but back in 93 i remember information was coming out about people looking in the hangars and i remember seeing a photo of a ufo ship in the hangar by a guy claiming to be a mp officer but if you look for it now its no where to be found on the internet but looking at that first photo i can tell that was the same ufo

Would that be this one by any chance?

reply to post by Tardacus


From what I can gather the debris had been strewn across the Foster ranch that Brazel worked on for a number of days. This was literally just a week or two after the phrase "Flying Saucers/Discs" was coined in the days following Kenneth Arnold's sighting of June 24, 1947. So we have to place the events and news reports within that context. Brazel had also been alerted that there was a substantial reward for finding one of these discs.

Marcel for some reason was convinced Brazel had found something not of this world. However the original interview with Brazel that went to press states he saw "...wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and stick". Make of that what you will but it doesn't sound like anything hi-tec to me. But back in 1947 who would contest the military's statements that they had found a flying disc, then hadn't? The war had only finished two years earlier and a very frosty relationship with the Russians had developed. People kept quiet.

After the "weather balloon" story was released it was the late 1970s before anything surfaced again. Roswell did not form part of any of the Grudge, Sign or Bluebook investigations. Edward J. Ruppelt does not mention the incident in any form in his book 'Report on UFOs'. (free download of this book here).

By the '50th anniversary' we had a 2nd and even 3rd crash site, alien dead bodies, one alien may have survived (and obviously could survive in our atmosphere) and 100s of witness testifying. A lot of them were telling second or third hand tales but there are a fair number first hand witnesses on the record. Perhaps some of them are untrustworthy and there is an element if disinformation as well.

If the Roswell incident was such a non-event then we have to conclude that a large number of witnesses are mistaken or lying (for whatever reasons they may have). But the military have shifted their position a number of times and have revealed a number of documents from the era are missing. It is either one hell of a secret being kept to this day or it really is a myth. Roswell has gone on to define the 'UFO cover-up' tale with death threats by dark forces, government conspiracy and confusing and conflicting evidence and testimony. I doubt we'll ever know what really happened.

reply to post by meteorlima


Thanks for the video, that's a different story. I didn't think anyone was looking into the San Agustin/Augustine crash, it's the first time I've heard a date for it.

I'm not into the metal but it was good to see somebody showing what they've got. I like that he speaks out when people say it never happened, only those who were there really know the truth.
I believe Roswell happened but that's just my opinion, I wasn't there.

I get what he said about it being shot down because the military were there so fast, this might explain why there is so much confusion. I've heard people say it was shot down, talking about the one Brazel found, but that one was there for a few days before Brazel reported it.

I will have to watch the video again because I didn't understand everything, and he said things I haven't heard before so I'll need to think about it for a while.

I’ve done a bit of digging.

Here’s a Project Bluebook case which is similar to the initial events at the Foster ranch (you can view the full documents here): www.fold3.com...



It concerns instruments found by a farmer near Darnforth Illinois which landed in the middle of his farm and burned weeds 2½ feet tall to a fine ash. The incident took place in August 1947 and was thought to be a flying saucer part.



The FBI picked up the materials and it seems they were quietly taken to Wright Field to be analysed. One officer thought it to be top secret on arrival.



The AAF technicians then tested the device and declared that it was not parts of a Mogul balloon or a Flying Saucer.

So in the immediate weeks after Roswell we have a similar situation. Unknown material is found on farmland; possibly parts of a flying saucer. However this time the material is quietly sent to Wright Field where tests eventually show that it was not a flying saucer or even a Mogul balloon. As far as Bluebook was concerned it was labelled hoax.

The documents also include a note stating that :

“…..the information may be transmitted to the FBI to inform various agencies throughout the United States as to what action to take in the event of other similar specimens are found.”

Now perhaps an instruction was issued immediately after the Roswell incident on how to handle future ‘finds’. However the document suggests that this event triggered such an instruction.


So what was so different at Roswell?