What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

reply to post by wildtimes


Thanks again.

1st. I do not worship a book. I only worship God and yes i agree that spirituality is personal.
Tell me do you think that hindus who worship krishna do not feel spiritual? Well they do.
Spirituality can be attached to anything and it would give a certain degree of peace. People in India worship living human beings as god!!

The important thing to to attach that spirituality to the One God that really created us and not created things/beings be it the sun,son, angels etc

and Qura'n has not so nice sayings?? =)
i didnt see any yet.

And i have concluded that we humans cannot figure out the "truth" ourselves so if we are supposed to know it then it has to be "revealed" by God.
If there is no revelation as you believe then we can search the truth but can never be certain of it and it seems odd to always remain uncertain even about the basic truths like is death the end and if there is uncertainty then its actually wise to live materialistically because if death is the end, why should i worry about being good and suppress my desires just because they encroach someone else's freedom/will.

logical7
these links are not a problem for me, they are actually a BIG problem for you.

Actually no .. they are a problem for you. The facts totally blow Islam out of the water.

You claim that Jesus pbuh claimed divinity by the statement "before Abraham was, I am"

That's correct. He did.

so Jesus pbuh is talking about Abraham, he also says that Abraham pbuh was happy to see that one day Jesus pbuh would be among people, so how did Abraham pbuh know this unless he was a prophet?

again ... he was speaking in a way that they could understand.
He gave references that they believed and could understand.
Kindergarden teachers do it with their students all the time.

logical7
I must say that it can be very easily proven that what we have now as Qur'an and Hadiths were actually said by Muhammad

So? It means that you can prove that Muhammad actually made false rants and they were recorded? So what? Because you can prove that he said them doesn't mean that you can prove they were actually from God.

The evidence proves two things ....
1 - Muhammad said what is recorded that he said.
2 - Muhammad FAKED visions from God because everything he said can be debunked.

So why are you so afraid to admit that?

reply to post by logical7

And i have concluded that we humans cannot figure out the "truth" ourselves so if we are supposed to know it then it has to be "revealed" by God.

TO YOU. NOT to Muhammed, or Moses, or Abraham, or anyone else. It has to be 'revealed' to YOU, by "God."

That means looking within, NOT listening to some other bloke's supposed revelation, or the reports of their personal revelation.

Of course I know people of other cultures are spiritual! *eyeroll*. So, what would it take for ME to be the next famed 'prophet' - ????? Is my claim that I was visited by a Divine Messenger enough? Would I have to have enough thugs, or charisma (or both) to FORCE people to believe my claim? How about making "rules" based on my claim? Do I have to fly to heaven on a horse? Or refrain from killing one group of people when I've killed so many others (which would require me to kill others BEFORE I could 'refrain' by contrast)?

If you want to believe he was the "last prophet" and follow his barbaric rules, go ahead. I can't stop you from here. It's up to you.

As for "not nice" - erm, stoning, rape, slavery, murder, and taxation are not "nice." Give me a break.

reply to post by wildtimes


Abrogation. Nuff said.

reply to post by logical7

if there is uncertainty then its actually wise to live materialistically because if death is the end, why should i worry about being good and suppress my desires just because they encroach someone else's freedom/will.

And.....here we are back to the beginnings of our debate. Again. Living "materialistcally" does not go hand in hand with uncertainty. NOR do morals come from religion. You are WAY worried about "suppressing your desires" - inordinately so. Unless you'd LIKE to be raping, stoning, murdering, stealing, having sex with kids, etc....and if that's the case, then I'm glad you're a Muslim, if that's all that's stopping you.

I don't need "certainty" to have "spirituality". Nor do I need imposed "rules". I 'get' God in my own way, and no one is the worse for it.

reply to post by FlyersFan

so Jesus pbuh is talking about
Abraham, he also says that Abraham
pbuh was happy to see that one day
Jesus pbuh would be among people,
so how did Abraham pbuh know this unless he was a prophet?

again ... he was speaking in a way that
they could understand.
He gave references that they believed
and could understand.
Kindergarden teachers do it with their
students all the time.

is that the best defense you could come up with? Seems very weak.
So your god has to use the help of a non existent person to convince people that he really is god?

Lets assume your explanation to be true then would you also accept the same explanation when Qur'an talks about, Adam, Abraham, Noah etc and so stop trying to discredit Qur'an by pointing these things? The rest of the message in Qur'an is simple, Worship only God, respect parents, feed the hungry, take care of orphans, give charity etc.

So now i'l be watching you for not using these refuted weapons from the arsenal that you use to attack Islam.
Either admit that Abraham pbuh existed or give the same consideration to Qur'an for using Abraham's pbuh name that you just gave to Jesus pbuh.
FAIR?

logical7
would you also accept the same explanation when Qur'an talks about, Adam, Abraham, Noah etc and so stop trying to discredit Qur'an by pointing these things?

- Jesus used references that the Jews understood to teach them in peace. It's what Kindergarden teachers do to make a point. (Santa is generous, maybe you could be too ... that kind of thing)
- Muhammad faked stories about heavenly visions and Old Testament prophets in order to bolster his own standing so he could rape and steal and kill. He twisted the Old Testament stories to fit his murdering agenda. Jesus did not.

The rest of the message in Qur'an is simple, Worship only God, respect parents, feed the hungry, take care of orphans, give charity etc.

That's a lie. We know better than that ... so don't even try to pass that off.


YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED THE ISSUE - You say that the accounts of Jesus from his time period aren't trustworthy and yet you buy into the fiction written almost 700 years later by a madman named Muhammad. How exactly is that logical? hmmm ???

reply to post by wildtimes

As for "not nice" - erm, stoning, rape, slavery, murder, and taxation are not "nice." Give me a break.

you may need one to read some authentic islamic sources(not apologetics)

tell me you don't pay taxes?!!!
In an Islamic state muslims pay only the 2.5% charity to the government and non-muslims pay the jizya tax(less than the charity btw)

i have not seen any verse that encourages murder or rape too.

I think you shouldnt throw these off hand comments if you want to discuss seriously.

Or i may have to give you a taste of your own medicine by summarizing your society as murderers, rapists and drugists.
I know its not true but you still refuse to accept that its the same with Qur'an and Islam. I hope this time we can keep aside the prejudices and discuss.

reply to post by logical7

i have not seen any verse that encourages murder or rape too.

Really?

I have, and I posted them - from two different sources. It may have been in Sahabi's thread about the uncorrupted corrupt Koran, but I used two separate sources - one was straight translation with no commentary - the other was from a site that you laughed off. But they said the same thing.

I think you shouldnt throw these off hand comments if you want to discuss seriously.

Or i may have to give you a taste of your own medicine by summarizing your society as murderers, rapists and drugists.
I know its not true but you still refuse to accept that its the same with Qur'an and Islam. I hope this time we can keep aside the prejudices and discuss.

That would be an ad hominem attack, and therefore a logical fallacy, to attack my country and 'the West' as "payback". But you seem to be very into "payback" and "revenge."

You are trying to deny that the Koran has passages about smiting people's heads off, or taking the enemies women as slaves, and raping them? It's your book. I know I saw it in there. You even acknowledged that the passages exist.

Lame.

This thread is about RELIGION, not "culture". Are you able to separate the two? I think all of the Abrahamic religions are, to some degree, "false". So, you're barking up the wrong tree. This country and society is not "Christian" - it is secular (so is yours, dude). You can't blend culture and society so smoothly into a discussion of "religion" only. I never claimed this country was "perfect" or is run "according to God's words". You want an Islamist society. I don't.

reply to post by FlyersFan

The rest of the message in Qur'an is simple, Worship only God, respect parents, feed the hungry, take care of orphans, give charity etc.

That's a lie. We know better than that ... so don't even try to pass that off.

Really? A lie? Lets see.

and serve allah and do not associate any thing with him and be good to the parents and to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the neighbor of (your) kin and the alien neighbor, and the companion in a journey and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands possess; surely allah does not love him who is proud, boastful-Chapter: 17 , Verse: 23

and your lord has commanded that you shall not serve (any) but him, and goodness to your parents. if either or both of them reach old age with you, say not to them (so much as) "ugh" nor chide them, and speak to them a generous word-Chapter: 2 , Verse: 83

about me addressing the issue, its actually more logical to accept Jesus pbuh as a man and prophet rather than accept a questionable text's claim that a man said he is god!!

Qur'an very clearly puts Muhammad pbuh as just a warner and a human and he forbade making his image/statue so that his followers did not get misled into worshipping his images/idols like the people before him drifted away from God and worshipped humans. This is very logical and believe me, i am in India and here a man becomes god in about 3 generations. The man who wrote our constitution is worshipped by people here, they worship buddha as god and keep pictures of gods and that man together and pray to them!!
so, yes i very well understand how men end up becoming gods even when they themselves never asked for it.

reply to post by logical7


Dude, perhaps you should make your own thread about how Islam is the best and only truth. THIS THREAD is about FINDING OUT A SET OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS IS FALSE.

How would you feel if you found out Islam is false? Is it uncomfortable for you to even THINK that it might be?

THOSE are the questions. Not - prove to me that Islam is true. (You can't.)

Answer the question from your own inner-self, if you're brave enough to face it. Set aside your 'belief' and just imagine you found out Islam is NOT 'the truth' - no matter how much you believe it. Does that hurt? If so, why?

I want to point out that my other thread on the afterlife, and the one about NDEs, has caused me to change my mind over the last week or so - and now I believe it IS POSSIBLE that Jesus actually revived from his apparent 'death' - since people do it nowadays without much fanfare...

so, that is an indication of how open I am to discovering what I believed may, in fact, have been false.
Did it hurt? Was it hard? No, it was easy, once I put the pieces together, I had no choice but say, "Huh! Well, that changes some things, doesn't it!" Am I upset that I might have been mistaken? No. I'm glad to have an explanation for what seemed inexplicable and therefore impossible to me before.

Humility and an open-mind. No "pride" or "revenge" involved.

reply to post by wildtimes

That would be an ad hominem attack, and therefore a logical fallacy, to attack my country and 'the West' as "payback". But you seem to be very into "payback" and "revenge."

But that's the sort of god he worships. You must realize that. And that's just one more example of how very HUMAN gods of the modern day are. They are just like the people who worship them. Very interesting, isn't it?

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

i have not seen any verse that encourages murder or rape too.

Really?

I have, and I posted them - from two different sources. It may have been in Sahabi's thread about the uncorrupted corrupt Koran, but I used two separate sources - one was straight translation with no commentary - the other was from a site that you laughed off. But they said the same thing.

I think you shouldnt throw these off hand comments if you want to discuss seriously.

Or i may have to give you a taste of your own medicine by summarizing your society as murderers, rapists and drugists.
I know its not true but you still refuse to accept that its the same with Qur'an and Islam. I hope this time we can keep aside the prejudices and discuss.

That would be an ad hominem attack, and therefore a logical fallacy, to attack my country and 'the West' as "payback". But you seem to be very into "payback" and "revenge."

You are trying to deny that the Koran has passages about smiting people's heads off, or taking the enemies women as slaves, and raping them? It's your book. I know I saw it in there. You even acknowledged that the passages exist.

Lame.

This thread is about RELIGION, not "culture". Are you able to separate the two? I think all of the Abrahamic religions are, to some degree, "false". So, you're barking up the wrong tree. This country and society is not "Christian" - it is secular (so is yours, dude). You can't blend culture and society so smoothly into a discussion of "religion" only. I never claimed this country was "perfect" or is run "according to God's words". You want an Islamist society. I don't.

edit on 11/6/13 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

killing enemy soldiers in a battle is not murder.

The only rape that i can assume anti-islamists can find is a verse telling muslims to approach their wives when they want and thats projected as maritial rape.

And yes when you do find an offending verse its an obligation on you to read its explanation and find more rather than pass a quick judgement.

Manytimes reading a few verses above and below the verse in question would give a better and whole meaning.

There's a science of how to understand Qur'an. You need to see all the verses about a certain matter and then it gives a clear understanding.

Using stand alone verses is neither academic nor shows a genuine interest in learning.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Very interesting, isn't it?

Fascinating. Endlessly.
:thumb up: Excellent point - yes, they make their "God" just like them, only bigger, meaner, more depraved, more powerful, and crueler.

reply to post by logical7

There's a science of how to understand Qur'an. You need to see all the verses about a certain matter and then it gives a clear understanding.

Using stand alone verses is neither academic nor shows a genuine interest in learning.

Reading an entire tome and then reflecting on it; even reading it again 10 years later and adding in one's maturity to "get" the "message" is routine in literature studies.

You're not doing anything different than the Christian apologists do; when someone 'cherry picks' a verse from the Bible and misconstrues it, it is false. I'm not interested in reading the entire Koran right now - I'm too negative about the faith that it spawned, just as much as I'm negative about Christianity.

So, please stop comparing me to "Christian apologists" - I'm not one. I don't listen to them, either. Why should I listen to your "Muslim apologetics" with any more credence than I give them? They're all stilted and flailing attempts at shoring up weak premises.

reply to post by wildtimes


Because that's what comes to mind when they think of "power". They have no understanding of what it takes to be a compassionate ruler. All they know is what they've seen from past human kings and lords.

reply to post by wildtimes

Answer the question from your own inner-self, if you're brave enough to face it. Set aside your 'belief' and just imagine you found out Islam is NOT 'the truth' - no matter how much you believe it. Does that hurt? If so, why?

NO, it won't hurt.

I think i had actually asked the hypothetical question about what if christianity is right and i had said that i would accept it, so yes i am open.
When you ask me to keep my beliefs aside, do you do that while enquiring a new idea. I see that you go in with some of your expectations and parameters and resist anything that threatens to largely alter your way of living.

reply to post by logical7

killing enemy soldiers in a battle is not murder.

Yes. It is. "Battling" is murder. I told you I watched the documentary - the tribes were busy attacking and murdering each other BEFORE Muhammed arrived, and continued doing so WHILE he was alive,and right after he died, they went RIGHT BACK TO IT, and it NEVER STOPPED.

Simply PLANNING a battle in which one intends to kill others is MURDER. It is NOT self-defense when one intends to murder from the outset. That's just a crap justification. JESUS DIDN'T MURDER ANYONE. Muhammed did, and NOT just in 'self-defense'. HE STARTED IT. He wanted REVENGE. That's your whole cultural outlook, isn't it??

I WANT REVENGE!! ALLAH, EITHER YOU CARRY OUT THE VENGEANCE, OR I WILL!!!

Jesus didn't talk about revenge. Muhammed "lived" for it. Two very different things. Which team would I choose? The peaceful one.

logical7
Really? A lie? Lets see.

Yes ... A LIE ... LETs SEE ... (devoid of your CHERRY PICKING)

BEAT WOMEN -
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..."

KILL AND TORTURE NON-MUSLIMS
Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides..."

Qur'an (8:12) - "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them."

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

WOMEN DO NOT HAVE SAME LEGAL RIGHTS
Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"

Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."

DO NOT BE FRIENDS WITH NON-MUSLIMS
Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Qur'an (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.

about me addressing the issue, its actually more logical to accept Jesus pbuh as a man and prophet rather than accept a questionable text's claim that a man said he is god!!

It's ILLOGICAL for you to dismiss the gospels as 'tainted' (without proof that they are tainted) and yet accept a murdering thief who says the Qu'ran is from God when in fact it has been proven wrong. That's ILLOGICAL.

reply to post by logical7


You keep linking my 'way of living' to my spiritual beliefs, and that is also a logical fallacy.

You think that "following rules" is spirituality in action, and I DO NOT. Yes, I don't want my way of living ripped from me. I like my life. I mind my own business, have enough to eat, wear what I want, go where I want with whoever I want to go with - talk to strangers who happen to be men, etc. I enjoy beer and bacon, and don't feel compelled to go to 'prayers' every few hours. I like using flatware, too.

I also enjoy toilet paper, libraries, continuing education, and running my OWN life, thanks very much.
I don't need YOU, or any IMAM or PRIEST or POPE or BISHOP running my life. I'm not a danger to anyone. YOU, on the other hand, I fear would be a danger to others if you felt you could 'get away with it.'

Just to have your 'revenge' and 'justice' satisfied. I really have to wonder who it is you are so pissed off at that you want them to burn in hell, and that if there's no hell to burn them in you'll simply do it yourself, because then YOU won't burn in hell either, but the offender will be dead. Sick.