What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

reply to post by Eryiedes


Cynic.

Don't assume, or put words into other people's mouths, you can't take my inventory and I happen to like AfterInfinity rather quite a lot so you were mistaken, right out the gate. Ha!

How do you think I did this?

Å99

vethumanbeing

akushla99
"What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your religion is false?"...better the devil you think you know, than the new one you'd have to dream up to replace it...Å99

I missed this original question 653 pages ago post by 3 minutes late, and how did you climb into my head to do this?

You knoe that I manipulate time, VHB...other thing is, these damned flip-top heads...yours just happened to be hinged back...

You know...if you're fearful...you might as well have something to be fearful of...take your pick, make one up...and while you're at it, construct an MGM, charlton heston blockbuster with a proper beginning, bacchanalian middle, and planet crashing ending...
Sometimes I confuse films with reality...

Å99

NewAgeMan
Don't assume, or put words into other people's mouths

Funny you should say it like that because that's EXACTLY what the Vatican did to you.
As for being a cynic...around these parts, that's just a sign of being an independant thinker so it's no small wonder the religious love to bat that one around like it's a pejorative.
They don't call church groups "flocks" because they are free-willed.
They call them flocks because they are sheep and have no will of their own save that of the "shepperd".
If that's what it boils down to at the end of the day...I'll take "cynic" over "sheep" any day of the week and twice on sundays.

-Amitaba-

Eryiedes

They call them flocks because they are sheep and have no will of their own save that of the "shepperd".
If that's what it boils down to at the end of the day...I'll take "cynic" over "sheep" any day of the week and twice on sundays.

-Amitaba-

Looks like a demonic spirit is leading you astray to be a cynic and hence be lost forever.
They are called flock because, they worship in Spirit and in Truth and besides, they do
think independently and have a mind of their own

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

I just don't like anyone assuming that they are closer to the truth and putting Questions to religionists in a tone that is superior.

But...but....
isn't that EXACTLY what you are doing with YOUR OWN FAMILY?

Btw, that disclosure (about your family/faith-situation) answered a LOT of my confusion about you. I appreciate you providing it; MUCH of what you have said on here makes better sense now.

Take care, log.

how does me telling my family to read Qur'an imply that i feel superior?

I tell everyone to read it with an open mind.
The message in it is very basic.
There's only One God and humans & jinns would be held accountable for their actions one day so better be nice.

reply to post by logical7

how does me telling my family to read Qur'an imply that i feel superior?

i was born in a muslim family and i hated a lot of things being done and practiced around me. I already had a view of how these should change and then they would make sense and then i found that the islamic teachings actually were the way i wanted and my family was doing it wrong.

Mmm. And I was born in a quasi-religious family (my mom was very religious, my dad less so) and I disbelieved a lot of things being "taught" to me as a little kid. So, I started digging into theology and religiosity, WITH AN OPEN MIND, and determined, all by my self, that MOST of it was make-believe.

Did that make me to feel "superior"? No, just "different." I went my own way. Always have done so, no use for imposed "rule books" that make NO SENSE.

You are too taciturn to have a real discussion with - and that, log7, is what hangs up our discussions. There is SO MUCH you will NOT disclose, and yet you spend time trying to shoot down real and bona fide objections to your chosen belief system....you see - without you being AUTHENTIC, GENUINE, and HONEST - and baring your soul, you can't be taken seriously.

You are hiding something, perhaps many things, and that makes you UNAPPROACHABLE. If you want open discussions, then you must be willing to BE OPEN. But you aren't. That's why our discussions ALWAYS grind to a halt.

As for your post, you answered your own question. You thought/think you KNOW BETTER (are superior) to your family. I doubt they took to that warmly, and since you say they are "still" sort of coming around, it tells me that you haven't fully "succeeded" in convincing them -

LIKEWISE - you have failed to convince anyone here that Islam is true and correct, or that your ideas are "superior", even though YOU think they are.

(sk0rpion doesn't count - he was already an ex-Christian. And if I were you? I wouldn't align myself with him anymore.)

reply to post by wildtimes


I said that my family was doing somethings wrong according to the teachings of Qur'an and just didnt know it. They already believe that Qur'an is God's Word and takes superiority over one's own personal wishes which most of the time are directed by selfishness, greed, arrogance, fear of hurt etc.

I do not think that me opening up personally helps the discussion and i am not the type who opens up easily.

I would tell you things if they are relavent.
I would also ask you to concentrate on the topic of discussion and take it objectively and not try to figure out and profile me psychologically.
You are free to assume things about me because of my refusal to open up but they would always be just assumptions.

The topic if we simplify it is "How would you(anyone) react to the Truth especially if its not want you would have liked it to be"

you keep on repeating that you admit that you don't know the truth
but you also try and show that you may know what its not (example- Hell) so if we assume thats true, havn't you roughly figured out the Truth by elimination?

And Sc0rpie is my brother, why do you say that?

reply to post by logical7


Wait a second. You're passive aggressively squeezing your family into Islam? Are they old enough to choose for themselves?

It is relevant because your desire to surround yourself with Islamic followers says that you are afraid of anything that isn't Islamic. Which, incidentally, ties very neatly into the topic. Do they truly believe, or are you lying to yourself out of fear? Do they have reason to lie to you about their faith? The nature of your faith suggests they would not be comfortable being honest with you because you don't take no for an answer.

To put it another way: if every member of your immediate family came out and said they had decided to be Christian or Jewish or atheist or an assortment of such options, but not a single Muslim besides yourself, how would that affect your family reunions? Would you bother talking to them at all? Would you be able to accept that they didn't worship or recognize the same god you do? Or would that put a rock in your shoe every time you looked at them?

reply to post by logical7

I do not think that me opening up personally helps the discussion and i am not the type who opens up easily.

If you don't open up, the discussion becomes shallow. The religious experience is an acutely personal one, for everybody.

I would tell you things if they are relavent.

I don't think you are unbiased in what you think is 'relevant.'

I would also ask you to concentrate on the topic of discussion and take it objectively and not try to figure out and profile me psychologically.

The OP Question - the Topic of Discussion - is inherently dependent on people's psychology. The entire premise is to get people to look at THEMSELVES openly and honestly. ... and see if they are brave enough to allow other "information" to get past their "walls" of insistent belief.

As for Hell - there is ample subjective evidence, from people who've had NDEs, and the SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH into them, suggest that any "hellish" experience is always TEMPORARY. And my confidence that Hell is not a "true" concept comes from my absolute disbelief that a LOVING GOD would subject his creation to destruction/terror/pain. It is "overkill", excessive, and the mark of a megalomaniac. THAT is NOT GOD.

Even scripture says that "God wants ALL to be well, and is endlessly patient." Now, I don't believe GOD is a separate "person" out there somewhere; and honest compassion and empathy is an inborn trait. People commit real evil because of circumstances that have corrupted their innate sense of morality. RELIGION DOES NOT CAUSE MORALITY.

As for "sk0rpie" being your 'brother'; If one is going to be an Ombudsman for any particular faith, they'd do well not to CREATE hostility. You feel fine telling your family what they're doing 'wrong'. That's all I'll say. He's on your team, not mine.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I watched the video a few years ago – and it’s a whole load of nothing

The guy starts out with the presumption that 2000 years ago something happened (baby Jesus being born); he gets some astronomy software and looks to see if he can find anything to support that idea and unsurprisingly he finds something

What if we did this again but the guy running the software didn’t know about any religious dates – would he have found anything special about the night sky 2000 years ago? – My answer would be no because planets are moving around the sky all the time creating all kinds of (cultural) associations with the background stars – and so the video is nothing but load of cognitive bias

Lets put the shoe on the other foot, what if some Hindu dude showed you something like this video that he said proved something about an elephant headed god – my guess is you would be every bit as sceptical about he’s claims and just as dismissive – right?

reply to post by logical7

What about Hell? Are the deceased being punished for their sins?

Although NDErs sometimes report distressing experiences involving feelings of powerlessness, isolation, torment, or worthlessness, such reports are much less frequent than reports of pleasurable NDEs. These points are probably most relevant to people experiencing grief and loss:

It can be helpful to note that a psychospiritual descent into what we think of as hell has been the experience of saints and sages throughout history and across cultures. Every world religion has its mystics who seek ultimate wisdom, and an encounter with one's own fear seems to be an essential step toward spiritual maturity.

There is no evidence that "good people" have pleasant experiences and "bad people" have frightening ones. It can be comforting to know that evidence from both the mystics and scientific researchers indicates that, whatever the experiences along the way, the ultimate condition of consciousness is one of peace.


Some NDEs include a life review. In this review, the NDEr typically re-views (sees again) and reexperiences every moment of his/her life. At the same time, the NDEr fully experiences being every other person with whom the NDEr interacted. The NDEr feels what it was like to be on the receiving end of his/her own actions, including those that caused others pain.

The NDEr usually reports feeling profound remorse, along with extreme regret that the harm cannot be undone. This understanding is likely to be extremely painful, it is said to be more a corrective than punishment for its own sake, for at the same time, NDErs typically report learning that the ultimate purpose of life is to be a more loving person.

Some people report having had a mostly distressing experience involving overriding feelings of terror, isolation, and/or torment. Research studies have suggested that a terrifying NDE is an incomplete NDE, and that experiences that run their full course resolve into the peaceful, healing, even euphoric kind.

Impact of the Near-Death Experience on Grief and Loss - What about Hell?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

To put it another way: if every member of your immediate family came out and said they had decided to be Christian or Jewish or atheist or an assortment of such options, but not a single Muslim besides yourself, how would that affect your family reunions?

Would you bother talking to them at all?

Would you be able to accept that they didn't worship or recognize the same god you do?

Or would that put a rock in your shoe every time you looked at them?

BRILLIANT. :thumb up:

I hope he answers. But I'm not holding my breath.

reply to post by wildtimes


Sometimes, corners are a necessary evil. *wry chuckle*

logical7
I would also ask you to concentrate on the topic of discussion and take it objectively and not try to figure out and profile me psychologically.

It's not possible to keep psychology out of this. Religion is largely psychological in make up.
And indoctrination is psychological. And pushing religious beliefs onto others is psychological.
And a person telling lies to cover for his/her religion is psychological.
And refusing to see the errors in a religion is psychological.

The question of this thread is ... why is it so scary to admit that your religion is wrong/has errors.
That's a psychological question.

Wildtimes is well educated in psychology and has practiced in the field.
So therefore, her expertise in this area WILL come into the discussion.
The information should be welcome. It comes from a good source ....
a person well educated in the field and has practice in it.

reply to post by logical7

I would also ask you to concentrate on the topic of discussion and take it objectively and not try to figure out and profile me psychologically.

We wouldn't have to if we could trust that you were willing to be honest with yourself, let alone us. As it so happens, we haven't seen much to convince us that honesty is your first priority.

Pardon me, I misspoke. I haven't seen much to convince me. So yes, I will be questioning that angle in order to establish a more accurate basis for our mutual understanding.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Don't assume, or put words into other people's mouths, you can't take my inventory and I happen to like AfterInfinity rather quite a lot so you were mistaken, right out the gate. Ha!

Well thank you!

AfterInfinity
You're passive aggressively squeezing your family into Islam?

.... oh man ... don't get me started on people being passive/aggressive. I"m seeing that on a few other religion threads that are ongoing ...Pretending one intent but really having other intentions ....

Passive/aggressive behavior with religion is nothing more than the perp telling LIES. It's interesting that people of certain religions think it's okay to LIE to get people to believe what they believe. The real desire behind the lie - IMHO - is fabricated validation for themselves of their own beliefs and power over the other person/people.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

My love also has to triumph even in the face of "thine enemy",

therefore i still love you bro in spite of calling my best effort to explain it to you in it's appropriate context a "pile of dog crap", and hey thanks for not stepping in it from your POV becsause to me it's something rather special, something found and unearthed which might even be so special that only certain people are inclined to even begin to understand it and fathom it's far reaching implications and significance.

It's trustworthy, from everything that's i can tell, upon examination, Jesus is, all the way down the line. A true friend if there ever was one, so it is in his spirit, as friend, that i too will sign off at least from our part of the discussion and bid you adieu and i will see you around, one way or another, you might be surprised.

Because if you're a friend to me you're also a friend to Christ who is my friend.

Notice I didn't infringe upon your character personally. I degraded the material you provided as evidence. And I would also ask you to notice that someone who DID watch the video agreed with my evaluation.

It's okay, you're still my friend too. But that doesn't mean I'll humor every idiot capable of posting a pretty video on the internet. It's all too easy to take a pile of rubbish, make a slideshow, and convince every moron with internet access that they are special.

wildtimes
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

To put it another way: if every member of your immediate family came out and said they had decided to be Christian or Jewish or atheist or an assortment of such options, but not a single Muslim besides yourself, how would that affect your family reunions?

Would you bother talking to them at all?

Would you be able to accept that they didn't worship or recognize the same god you do?

Or would that put a rock in your shoe every time you looked at them?

BRILLIANT. :thumb up:

I hope he answers. But I'm not holding my breath.

@ AI-i would be fine.
@wildtimes-Actually you do know that i am going to marry a christian girl soon. InshaAllah.