What is so scary about thinking, or discovering, your Religion is false?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I have done the work. I'm still doing it.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Dude. You are already "saved" whether you believe in it or like it or not, and never have I seen anyone wrestle with God to the degree that you do. You're like Jacob, how's your hip?

On M. Scott Peck, MD's The Stages Of Spiritual Growth, scale, the skeptical atheist is way ahead of the blind-faith, conservative fundamentalist literalist evangelical (Republican?) Christian, and it shows intellectual courage to break free of that.

God likes courage and probably enjoys a good wrestle as much or more than anyone, and my friend the truth is that he loves you dearly.

You would make an awesome addition to any fairly Liberal Church community, even as a skeptical atheist, and you might find that by letting your light shine or your coal to glow in context of the community that you need them just as much as they need you.

You have a lot of Christian friends for a good reason, and, you had to leave the faith for an even better one.

You're JUST the kind of person that God seeks, much more than the rest of the sheep, not to SAVE you, but to encourage and promote your continued growth and development with or along side you (again, regardless of what you think or believe about God and who could really truly know the mind of "God" anyway because the Absolute cannot be fully understood, only lived.)

Like I was, you might end up being led to make another inquiry, to re-read the Gospels, but with an open and curious mind, sifting it like a detective of sorts just to make sure that you weren't missing out on some big revelation like the one claimed by that guy NAM aka Bob on ATS.

wildtimes
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I have done the work. I'm still doing it.

Good stuff! Seriously.

I hope you keep an open and inquiring mind while you're at it because these "inquiries" are always a two way street or a double-edged sword.

It's best not to assume, or to judge, and I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression from the things I've been saying, because I do like you and can see very clearly that you've on what my mother, Kay, (now passed) called "the journey".

Best Regards,

NAM aka Bob

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Well...thank you for all of that. I'm a little dazed from that unexpected positivity. While I remain thoroughly unconvinced, I suppose only time will tell. Again, thank you for that. I appreciate the sentiments. I wish more Christians were like you.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Well...thank you for all of that. I'm a little dazed from that unexpected positivity. While I remain thoroughly unconvinced, I suppose only time will tell. Again, thank you for that. I appreciate the sentiments. I wish more Christians were like you.

You just paid me the highest honor, as a Christian in kind, thank you. It really means a lot.


Speaking of power and magic, this may sound totally crazy or whacked (but something that I think you might find interesting nevertheless, as a fellow "rebel with a cause"), but two years ago at Christmas during the solstice season, I had a type of mystical experience along with a rather dark night of the soul, during which time I ended up locking horns with a being that I became convinced was none other than the Pope Joseph Ratzinger who was employing what the book of Revelation calls "the magic arts" which I interpreted as being primarily ancient Egyptian in nature, and I was the one who, in the Spirit, told him to resign (took him a little while to get the message though but it got through in what he has called himself "a mystical experience" of his own.)

As I tried to fall asleep, and during terrifying awakenings at night, all kinds of things were being done and attempted, largely against me (they sure weren't FOR me or my benefit that's for sure), one night I even perceived an old man's fingers reaching out to try to touch me, to which my immediate and spontaneous reaction was ewww get AWAY from me! I judged and was judged, but I stayed true to the spirit, and it was like God was performing a work of some kind through the ordeal and the locking of horns. They did try to "bury me" though, lock me away, bind me, chop me up, etc. I could even faintly hear them talking sometimes (as if through some sort of quantum paper thin wall or something), but it was funny because what they seemed to be receiving on their end from mine was altered in amuzing ways like when I'd step outside for a smoke and I'd hear "it's a fire breathing dragon!" or at one point when I sensed that I was being "worked on" and someone said "it's not working I'm getting the hell OUTTA HERE!" (panicked). So just in case someone could hear me, I would repeat things like "Babylon is fallen!" just to trip them out even more.

In other words I've been through the ringer over all of this on more than one occasion, but not any more, thank goodness.

It's scary stuff, but God's power, which is withheld and reserved and constrained as Virtue, is very powerful, one little promise made and he KEEPS it and doesn't mess around, it's hard to explain.

It's not like that with me now these days, but I've had "encounters", the result of which I've found that there is a self aware God as an other who is just beyond understanding and belief, and who, while Merciful and Just and yada yada etc etc. is in fact THE most humorous (and loving) being, EVER.

Who knows.. in the domain of all possibility, maybe God even used the likes of a wretch like me to force a Pope to resign having been caught between a rock and a hard place and with his hand in the cookie jar trying to conjure stuff and perform occult magic, or maybe it was ME on my end who knows but something happened. And it wasn't just a delusion or a psychotic episode on my part, but an authentic spiritual experience or I wouldn't not have learned so much nor retained such a perfect memory of it, including the great groan and the great cheer, the three woes, the "no matter how big or small" the "secret of satan" it's hard to explain but it was like a psychic clash with an evil empire, both here on earth AND beyond.

Seems to me, in the final analysis that the buck starts and stops here of all places, something certain PTB are aware of and attempt to hijack to their own exclusive advantage by trying to hijack the collective consciousness of the human being using various psy-ops intended to drive certain allegorical archetypes (take the 9/11 event as but one prime example).

I realize this is a little too um "out there" and perhaps too "solipsistic" for most people's taste, but it's what I've been forced to conclude.

There's more going on than meets the eye and Earth may very well be at the center of a great cosmic drama and struggle in terms of the forces of good and evil, but God will have it no other way than that WE lay the foundation of heaven on earth, together, with his Power and Might being of THE most subtle levels imaginable and unimaginable.


The difficulty we are all having with God is an issue of trust, both ways, but starting in our trust in God because he obviously trusts in us and seemingly for no good reason that's discernable.

Best Regards,

NAM aka Bob

P.S. Since I'm already "out there" and risking the label of "insane" (even though I like to call myself an Urban Shaman), FYI here's where it all started (the "episode") and to a large degree played itself out, right here at ATS from the thread Why did the Pope dress up as Santa?. Not long after starting it did a very unusual and creepy dude with unusual training show up at ATS in the same forum, and make a very cold threat directed my way, thus some of the more unusual posts you'll find towards the end of the thread. It was a scary and very difficult time for me, hope this Christmas is a little more cheery.. LOL!

reply to post by FlyersFan

I just gave you 'observations' (truths
from science and history) that
disagree with it. So, using the theory
analogy, the theory of Islam implodes.
The 'theory' of Islam falls apart during
the experimental procedure ... the truth of science kills it.

I just gave you the news of a skull found in Georgia which is 1.8 million years old and it suggests that humans came from ONE specie and not 7 as previously thought and neither from africa as previously assumed.
Makes the idea of human evolution implodes, doesnt it? And also suggests that the Adam-eve myth could be actually true..

I respect science but i am not a science fanatic as i know that science is growing and so it cant be absolutely certain about anything.
Archeology is also an imprecise science, it tries to make a full picture when only a small amount of data is available. Its like the story of six blind men and the elephant.
You seem to have more faith in science and believe its infallible and irrefutable! You are free to hold that opinion.
For me, science is an ever changing field and so i would abstain from assuming the scientific understandings till now as absolute truths.

Also do tell me how can archeology prove that a certain man(Abraham pbuh) was NOT at a certain place(present day Makkah)

Absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence FF!

Arabs were obsessed with geneology and many could remember more than 15-20 generations and they traced their ancestory back to Ishmail pbuh son of Abraham pbuh. So a father and a son couldn't have kept meeting according to your archeology? i know that no archeologist would claim what you claim =)

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

i was born in a muslim family and i hated a lot of things being done and practiced around me. I already had a view of how these should change and then they would make sense and then i found that the islamic teachings actually were the way i wanted and my family was doing it wrong.

Interesting, so "confirmation bias", in other words.

Did you successfully change your family's practices and beliefs?
Did you tell them they were "wrong"? Do you think your feeling that things "should" be the way you wanted them to be was a divine spark? Or was it just your opinion? How long did you "fight it", and by what method?

Did you explore ALL other faith systems before settling on Islam in the end?

Not exactly confirmation bias. In confirmation bias people do idea shopping like they are in a store and only their taste matters.
For me it was establishing if i am really communicating with a higher Intelligence and few things made sense but few were against my own desires but once i established it, i accepted them as true and required.
I have made a theory on this. "If a religion lets you do whatever you wish and desire, then its probably not the right one"
its like parenting and you would get it better than me.
Parents who have no restrictions/limits for their kids may seem really "loving" but in reality they are ruining them.
On the other hand parents who do put necessary limits may appear as harsh and the kids may wish they had that "other" cool parents but when they grow up, they will thank the parents for teaching them self-control and discipline etc.
Ofcourse the 3rd kind which are so harsh that they only want to raise uncreative,unconditionally obedient
also exist.
Now for you islam seems the 3rd kind =) because you see yourself as the 2nd kind.
But only God knows what are the necessary limits.
Honestly i hate all that Love talk because it makes the majority irresponsible, only people who really understand love can behave upright based on that sole philosophy.
A Loving God is just half the picture, i also should love God back and try to be loving to other people, to be just and compassionate. Otherwise i would end up just abusing the idea that God is loving and forgiving.
This joke may clear what i mean.
"i wanted a bicycle and prayed and prayed but nothing happened, then i realised that God doesn't work that way, so i stole one and asked God for forgiveness."

Regarding my family, i asked them to read Qur'an with translation and they are slowly getting it.

I have read a lot about hinduism, buddhism, christianity and a bit about chinese philosophies.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

And what do i make of it when Qur'an says that messengers were sent to every community and this fits?

What DO you make of it?

Why would you compel people of a completely different community to believe YOUR faith, if it was a message sent to YOUR community?

It certainly wasn't sent to mine, no matter how far back I go.

i don't "compel" and its not just "my" faith.
You really need to know a lot about Islamic philosophy before you start judging.
The message of Islam is not new and it makes sense to people no matter from where they are.
By messengers being sent to every community/nations, it means that other than the known prophets, countless others were sent to every place carrying the same message of pure monotheism and that the day of judgement would come and everyone would be held accountable for their actions.
You have also recieved the message by knowing and reading about Islam.
If you choose to read anti-islamic sites and then make quick and wrong judgements, its your free will but don't assume that you know islam better than muslims themselves or that you are enlightened while muslims are indoctrinated. It could well be the other way round.

I found the two questions you asked in the op interesting and this is a nice topic.
I just also felt the need to ask you if you think that those two questions equally apply to you and other agnostics and atheists?

I just don't like anyone assuming that they are closer to the truth and putting Questions to religionists in a tone that is superior.
For example, say hypothetically the truth is that Jesus pbuh did die for the sins of the world and christanity is the true way.
Would atheists, agnostics and muslims accept it no matter how much they dislike it?

Your questions apply to each human/individual and not just religionists.
You refuse to read ancient scripture because you have already made a judgement about them, thats nothing different than a die hard christian refusing to read about buddhist teachings or Qur'an etc.
Btw Buddhism is more ancient than Qur'an and so are its scriptures.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I imagine we will all learn the truth someday...even if it's just before we pass into the void and become nothing.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

Its like a theory in physics, Islam proposes a theory and all observations seem to agree with it and so i am inclined to also trust that the yet unseen events would also be true.

You could test it using the scientific method. Or have you done so already?

i have observed that whatever islam forbids has a lot of wisdom.
I gave an example of it forbidding interest banking and debt based economy and you see around where it has brought USA and the world.
Believing in God and a Day of Accountability makes people behave in a just way even if they are being tempted by their selfishness and greed.
Do you not think the world would be more peaceful if people in POWER knew that they would one day answer to every injustice they did?

If every rich person gave 2.5% of annual savings to help the poor, there would be no more poverty.

If everyone ate healthy food and abstained from forbidden foods and drinks, most of the diseases would be gone.

If everyone practiced sex with only the wife then the STDs would be not a problem.

So yes i do see the benefits if the system i know is believed and followed.

reply to post by logical7

For example, say hypothetically the truth is that Jesus pbuh did die for the sins of the world and christanity is the true way.
Would atheists, agnostics and muslims accept it no matter how much they dislike it?

Your questions apply to each human/individual and not just religionists.
You refuse to read ancient scripture because you have already made a judgement about them, thats nothing different than a die hard christian refusing to read about buddhist teachings or Qur'an etc.
Btw Buddhism is more ancient than Qur'an and so are its scriptures.

I wonder if you are ever going to stop putting your thoughts on me, and actually listen to what I disclose about myself.

Yes, the questions apply to ME, and everyone else, those of faith, and those with none. If I had not applied them to myself, I would not have posed them to the board.

I do not refuse to read 'ancient scripture' - I have read MANY - including the Nag Hammadi finds, large parts of the Bible (no one can be raised a Christian without exposure to the Bible and its stories!), large parts of the Koran (which was unpleasant for me to cave in and do, because I'm stubborn and you ticked me off ), the Tibetan Book of the Dead, etc.

I have also read many scholarly critiques and evaluations of those tomes, written by people who make it their life's work. How does that indicate I refuse to read 'ancient scripture'? It doesn't. And it's not the case, whether you want to keep insisting it is, or not.

I am aware that Buddhism is more ancient than Qur'an. Whatever made you think I was not aware of that????

I've said over and over I believe Jesus studied with Buddhists. !!!!

In any case, it has been an interesting thread. It was challenging, and I believe it challenged some of the participants to be open to these questions. THAT was the reason for it - not to be "superior" or "right". I don't know what the Truth is. Period.

reply to post by logical7

Would atheists, agnostics and muslims accept it no matter how much they dislike it?

I would accept it. I would also disregard it and continue living as an atheist.

reply to post by logical7

I just don't like anyone assuming that they are closer to the truth and putting Questions to religionists in a tone that is superior.

But...but....
isn't that EXACTLY what you are doing with YOUR OWN FAMILY?

Btw, that disclosure (about your family/faith-situation) answered a LOT of my confusion about you. I appreciate you providing it; MUCH of what you have said on here makes better sense now.

Take care, log.

large parts of the Koran (which was unpleasant for me to cave in and do, because I'm stubborn and you ticked me off)

did you read it from a copy of Qur'an? Or some site putting up selected verses?
Don't worry about being ticked off, you do the same to me when you question and wonder how indoctrinated i am. And yes i am stubborn too. =D nice to meet you!
I don't like anyone telling me what to do and what not to do.
I am a muslim by choice not by fear of Hell. I actually for a time debated with myself to accept hell rather than accepting and submitting to the DOs and DONTs in Islam
now i think another way, whenever Qur'an threatens with hell, i see that the action which deserves it must be pretty bad for the person, his/her soul and/or the society.
Like the Qur'an depicts an image of people who hoard gold and silver(money) and don't use it to help others as being branded with that same molten metals. Very scary and very effective. You do see the effect of what happens when a handful of elite control most of the wealth and cause millions to die of starvation and lack of basic medical facilities. Do these people deserve hell. Hell yes!!

reply to post by logical7

Like the Qur'an depicts an image of people who hoard gold and silver(money) and don't use it to help others as being branded with that same molten metals. Very scary and very effective. You do see the effect of what happens when a handful of elite control most of the wealth and cause millions to die of starvation and lack of basic medical facilities.

I believe you have 'heard' me say before (and if not, then perhaps it wasn't in this forum, but Social Issues) - that yes, the "financial" aspect of humanity is wrong. I agree with that 100%.

It is the misogyny and the social oppression that I disagree with. ANY religion that makes women subservient and subject to the "whims" of a panel of MALE judges is lacking, simply because that vice exists.

Also, I disagree with all of the strictures on what to put in one's mouth - and all the formulaic "praying" and "rules for women's dress". They are ugly, and oppressive.

You will NOT go to hell for drinking wine or beer or eating bacon or pork. That is just ridiculous. We've spoken about it before. And "fear of hell" is NOT the best cause for morality - NOR IS IT THE ONLY CAUSE.

Do those banksters and uber-rich schysters deserve hell? Not for me to say - but they at least deserve to have many, many lifetimes of suffering - and figuring out where they went wrong - before they are allowed to 'rest in the bliss of the Divine.'

Hell seems a bit "much", and not realistic. But you know I think that.

When you asked if I were to discover Christianity IS the 'true way', I'd say...okay, then. I don't "break the commandments" - and the bottom line "rule" of Christianity is sound, anyway. Would it change how I live? Nope. Not in the least.

If Sharia law took over my nation, it would DEFINITELY, by FORCE, change how I live - BECAUSE IF I DON'T, they'll KILL ME. But I guess you'll never see that point.

A merciful Creator - truly MERCIFUL - gives chance after chance. Hell, even the mods on here will give people 3, 4, 5 chances, and WORK WITH THEM to keep from banning them. Even so, many of them "reincarnate" at a later time, and it is 'overlooked'.

The Best Staff on the Internet - why would God be any less understanding, patient, kind, and lenient?

It seems that you REALLY WANT some souls to burn and fester in Hell, forever, and that's CERTAINLY not "Christian", nor is it "of the Divine." Sounds to me like frustration and rage - just praying that someday "they'll get theirs."

wildtimes

I've said over and over I believe Jesus studied with Buddhists.

!!!!

This is poppycock, but you are free to believe what you wish

reply to post by Angelic Resurrection


Thanks, but, how do you know? Those lost years haven't been explained any other way.

wildtimes
reply to post by Angelic Resurrection

 

Thanks, but, how do you know? Those lost years haven't been explained any other way.

I know coz, The only begotten Son of God does not need to be indoctrinated
from any1.
Why should the missing years have any explanation ?
He could have been with the Angels in Heaven

reply to post by wildtimes


The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus Christ was channeled by a Christian monk in the early 19th century. It covers the entire life of Jesus. Says that he studied Buddhism and other esoteric teachings.

reply to post by Angelic Resurrection


Because unlike some, there are those of us who prefer not to make assumptions. Assumptions are the bane of science.