This is Hell, and We are the Fallen Angels

This is Hell, ...

Phantasie = Imagination = Remembering = Creation

Not hell, a prison for immortal beings, spirits (YOU) - destined to have their memories deleted before each return. Errors happen, seen as pre-life memories in new borns. Exiled for reasons need to be remembered in order to be empowered again.

... and We are the Fallen Angels

Only few of the exiled. Among us.


Reality? What is reality if the only constant in the universe is change?

reply to post by CaticusMaximus

I grew up as a christian. It was kind of forced on me, so maybe that's why I grew out of it. I also grew up with computers. I loved everything technology. Typical nerd. I haven't grew out of that. So press fast forward and here I am. I'm an agnostic atheist. When I left my faith in God behind me I had an empty spot inside. I never have filled it. Even now I sometimes yearn for the faith I had back then.

Anyway, my background in computers and christianity has merged in a strange sort of way to make me think our universe is somehow an evil simulation. Now, I don't BELIEVE this, I just wonder about it. All the death and misery and suffering and killing (killing just to eat!) in our universe bothers me. Why're we so competitive? Why we're either selfish as individuals or selfish as nations or selfish as species? Why does it seem that this is hardwired into our universe? ignorance and finiteness seem to have us tied down and unable to change our nature. We're constantly pressured to make immediate decisions and yet we're working with limited knowledge. Physics seems to tell us we will always be ignorant about some things and thus we can never make perfect choices. We're wrapped up in a kind of hell. The carrot on the stick is our vision of heaven, a place that probably doesn't or cannot exist.

I have to go to bed now. What I"m trying to put into words deserves better. My puny brain cannot take all of the things and put it here. Perhaps this means I do not understand it as well as I think I do. Maybe I've just watched too many bugs fly into the spider web. And please note I don't BELIEVE what I'm writing here. This is conjecture. This is like brainstorming philosophy or "What created God?"

Final thought before I hit the sheets... Does death make our memories meaningful?

reply to post by CaticusMaximus


The 'problem of evil' is what separates the men from the boys,
and the girls from the women.

By observing how a person handles this apparent 'Kobiyashi Maru',
one can ascertain the true depth of their understanding,
"resonance" and character.

Some say that the universe is innately evil, or evil 'after the fall
of man'.

Some say that the universe is innately good.. and that all perception
of 'evil' is mere maya or illusion.

Some go for a hybrid approach, and claim that good spirits are caught
in evil matter.

Regardless of which of these approaches is taken, the goal is to ease
the suffering of the cognitive dissonance, between the desire to believe
in good, while observing an apparent world of evil.

There are also more 'so called advanced' ways to deal with the core
existential dilemma.. such as advaita (not two). I won't discuss the
limitations of this approach.. it's a bit outside of the scope.

The psychological pressure is great, to come up with A solution,
in fact ANY solution to ease the pain. Some folks spend a grand
total of 2 minutes coming up with their 'workaround' ... such
as accepting one of the thousands of 'gods' into their heart,
and allowing their mind to switch off.

Others become mad thinkers and write treatises (I have empathy
for that).. actually I have empathy for all these approaches.

Let me share a story with you, and then ask you a couple
simple questions.

"Ten friends collaboratively and equally contribute to creating
a work of art -- a statue of a beautiful lady say". The ten friends
quarrel, each attempting to make their will be the dominant
will. In the end, the statue is trashed.. rather than creating
a vision of beauty, they create a misshapen thing.. which
they call evil, and blame upon each other.

How might this 'parable' relate to the world and the nature
of life? Who gets the blame? Who is good? Who is evil?
Is there a solution? Should there be a solution? If in fact
you could make everything beautiful, would you be
guilty of murder?

I'm not inferring anything.. just asking you to think.. in case
you might get something from it.. or not... it's all good.

KPB

I'm going to attempt to write some more on this, not because I think getting some sleep and having some time has cleared my thoughts, but because I feel compelled to. This issue, this topic, is something that has been on my mind for a while. It's hard not to interject something. I am helpless as a fly on a fruit basket.

I'd like to posit that IF we chose to come here from a different and/or higher supernatural plane of existence THEN it's the pain and suffering and death and competition we're seeking - those things are why we're here.

Alongside the posit listed above, I also believe pride and free will go hand in hand. It's natural for people to have different opinions and for them to feel strongly about it and to cast their own will above another based on their judgements. It's natural to have self esteem. It's natural for people to disagree and to fight with one another. I believe this is physics, not morality. We're caught in a massively incomprehensible web of physics which processes both positive and negative effects. Make no mistake, the positive and negative effects are intertwined, just as a rock thrown up in the air is sure to come down or a burning star is sure to burn itself out. Neither positive or negative can be eliminated. Thus, we find ourselves in a situation where this reality produces both and will do so indefinitely, until at which time the creators of this reality and/or the participants have a change of mind and alter it.

One might think I am saying you cannot make life better or there's no accountability. This is not wholly true, only in part. I did not say you cannot make a better life for yourself or that you cannot, through technology or some other means, extend your life. One might, foreseeably, live for thousands or millions of years with the appropriate means. BUT what I am indeed saying is there will always be a continual obstacle to achieving those ends and at every juncture death or accident will present itself, to be conquered or surrendered to. Without those obstacles in your path, this reality would lose its purpose and its principle reason for existing at all.

I do not know the full list of reasons why supernatural beings would come and enter this reality. Maybe it's amusing to them. Maybe they're imprisoned here. Maybe this relaity provides therapy. I cannot provide a complete answer. I am restricting myself to the posit that pain and suffering is the reason we come and exist here.

Now, WHY do we want death and suffering and competition? What about those things are so desirable that we, as supernatural beings, would choose to come and enter this reality? That's a mystery, since we can clearly see in the news and in the conversations people share that they're terrified and greatly troubled by disasters and mishap and the death of a loved one and other similar things. However, while on the one hand people are shaken by disaster and suffering, there's a reverse side that says different. I think it was Martin Luther King who said there's redemption in suffering. I believe MLK was referring also to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, in an indirect way. The ordeals of Christ's life embody the challenges people face in life and also his christ-like actions are what they aspire to. However, MLK is not the only one to arrive at this thought. Many teachers and leaders have alluded to the hard won lessons learned through suffering. Somebody who has suffered or experienced disaster is said to be more wise and strong and thus more valuable. We honor our military veterans who have fought in wars and we similarly honor our firefighters and policeman and others who have put their lives in danger. One can say that without disaster and suffering, the character of people would be dramatically shrunken.

Without death, would our memories have value to us? I asked this question in my previous post just before I put down my computer and went to sleep. I've often made associations between pain and the power or relevance of memory. Without pain, I fail to see how our actions would be meaningful or accountable. Without the threat of pain, what would stop us from becoming genocidal or unfriendly to others? Without the pain of losing a loved one, might we move on and treat their memory as equal to any other? Indeed, I feel that without pain, this life would be no more than a game. Pain makes reality real. We would come here, play it and be done with it, otherwise. It's the pain which keeps us playing. As supernatural beings, we've come to desire pain because of its ability to create meaning in our experiences.

Cogito, Ergo Sum

Our universe (the part we can observe) is fantastically empty. Far beyond any vacuum that can be created in a laboratory. From memory, the amount of physical matter we can observe in our universe amounts to something like one hydrogen molecule per 25 earth volumes.

Thats just amazing. I was under the impression, having read (or thought having read...) that the intergalactic void could be estimated to have 1 hydrogen atom per cubic meter, with interstellar voids having more, of course, and more and more as you get into gas "clouds" and closer to other objects.

Thats a whole lotta nothing either way, though.

And the fact that matter is mostly empty itself, with the illusion of solidity coming from electrons repelling each other, really gives you the sense of an insubstantial place we live in.

KellyPrettyBear
"Ten friends collaboratively and equally contribute to creating
a work of art -- a statue of a beautiful lady say". The ten friends
quarrel, each attempting to make their will be the dominant
will. In the end, the statue is trashed.. rather than creating
a vision of beauty, they create a misshapen thing.. which
they call evil, and blame upon each other.

How might this 'parable' relate to the world and the nature
of life? Who gets the blame? Who is good? Who is evil?
Is there a solution? Should there be a solution? If in fact
you could make everything beautiful, would you be
guilty of murder?

I see the friends pride coming between them. Each thinks their version is superior to the others, and that their own version is the one that needs to dominate the others, as pride tends to think.

I would not call any good nor evil. Evil I would call acting upon another with malicious intent solely to cause harm for causing harms sake.

The solution as I see it is to put aside pride and collaborate together to make the best of what their skill allows. It might not be the spitting image that any of them had, but it would be a work made in harmony, and that would show as beauty (assuming of course all were skilled in their craft).

No body needs to die for beauty to come about. Beauty goes hand in hand with harmony, and being harmonious is really a choice, but all need to make that choice for it to really work.

reply to post by CaticusMaximus


Would you consider some form of death to be
A gatekeeper?

KPB

jonnywhite

Without death, would our memories have value to us? I asked this question in my previous post just before I put down my computer and went to sleep. I've often made associations between pain and the power or relevance of memory. Without pain, I fail to see how our actions would be meaningful or accountable. Without the threat of pain, what would stop us from becoming genocidal or unfriendly to others? Without the pain of losing a loved one, might we move on and treat their memory as equal to any other? Indeed, I feel that without pain, this life would be no more than a game. Pain makes reality real. We would come here, play it and be done with it, otherwise. It's the pain which keeps us playing. As supernatural beings, we've come to desire pain because of its ability to create meaning in our experiences.

edit on 9-10-2013 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

First, thanks for your thoughts. They are interesting.

I would disagree that free-will and pride are integral. Another poster mentioned that, but I just dont see how one would absolutely need the other. I can easily imagine and have seen practiced on rare occasion, people actually coming to consensus, on, lets say for argument, where to go out to eat, with differing core opinions but all choosing to go to the same place without any hard feelings, or hurt feelings, etc. They all chose freely to consent and compromise, yet no pride caused a fight, or ego damage, etc, because they werent coming from a place of disharmonious pride trying to decide where to go; they were coming from a place of wanting a harmonious night out, and freely all decided to make it that way.

Without death, would our memories have value to us?

I guess that depends how one thinks of death. I dont see it as a big deal, myself. Only a waking from a dream, and I have some very valuable memories from dreams.

Without the threat of pain, what would stop us from becoming genocidal or unfriendly to others?

Principle. The desire to rise above ones physical nature and become more than physicality could ever offer.

I think Aristotle said: "I have learned this from philosophy; that I do without being commanded, what others do only from fear of the law".

Indeed, I feel that without pain, this life would be no more than a game. Pain makes reality real. We would come here, play it and be done with it, otherwise. It's the pain which keeps us playing. As supernatural beings, we've come to desire pain because of its ability to create meaning in our experiences.

I think pain is in fact an overarching theme in this reality. However I do not think that pain intrinsically makes things "real". Ive had many OBEs that are more real than "real", and pain is not a factor in them. I know others have had those "dreams" that are "more real than real" as well, and it wasnt pain that was making them real; it was an entirely different factor that we are not really aware of in our current state, but can still experience at times when out of this state.

I do agree entities who are here in this realm want to, to some degree, experience pain, or at least accept that pain is part of the game and that it will probably come to them at some point while here.

Limitedly speaking, what I think stand out memories would be created by, is the uniqueness of the experience an entity has. This realm seems rife with pain... other realms may be filled with other emotions, and those emotions are the overarching theme of that realm. I can easily imagine realms where the theme is love, or sorrow, or war (truly unending war, nothing like weve seen here), or play, or various passions such as the passion for science, or the passion to garden, etc.

Pain does to some extent does define this area we live in... but I do not think it is the pain itself that causes value to be added to memories, so to speak (I think all memories are valuable).

Going a little deeper, as I think per the OP that Pride is what has shaped this void we are in, that pain is a function of that Pride, and not a necessary thing that one must experience for whatever reason. Everything we see I think is a result of that core of Pride that has shaped our realm, and the disharmonious balance that been achieved through killing to live and feeling pain, predator/prey systems, etc, all stem from it.

It is all a manifestation of a very, very large group of entities believing in, toying with, dabbling with, etc, the notion of "I am better than you".

KellyPrettyBear
reply to post by CaticusMaximus

 

Would you consider some form of death to be
A gatekeeper?

KPB

Elaborate, please.

reply to post by CaticusMaximus


I haven’t read the thread so forgive me if I am repeating something which has already been made apparent.

A while back I stumbled across an author who wrote a book about a specific doctrine called ‘The Doctrine of two civitates’.

Johannes van Oort – Jerusalem and Babylon (A study into Augustines City of God and the sources of his doctrine of the two cities):

So there are two cities: one of the wicked, the other of the saints. Their existence stretches from the beginning of mankind to the end of the world. Now they are joined in body, but separated in body, too (…) Just as Jerusalem signifies the city and fellowship of the saints, so Babylon signifies the city and fellowship of the wicked. For its name is said to mean ‘confusion’. About these two cities, which, intermingled, are advancing throughout the changing times from the beginning of mankind to the end of the world and which will be separated on the Day of Judgement, we spoke a little earlier.”

Augustine regarded Babylon as the city of the devil and of all power directed against God; man has to fight against sin as the spirit of Babylon; perfection is reached in the city of God, Jerusalem (heaven, the church).

www.academia.edu...

Also at the time I came across another very similar almost identical doctrine, which came from the dead sea scrolls (reputed to be part of the essene library) which was written around the time of Jesus, which is called ‘The doctrine of two spirits’, here is a link (its rather fluffy source) but worth the read.

www.sevenstarhand.org...

So we are in Babylon transforming the sin within ourselves to make it to Jerusalem. All the negativity here provides the gift of potential transformation within ourselves.

reply to post by CaticusMaximus


You bring up an interesting point. Apparently, the more extravagant and flamboyant the display of power, the more right one has to exalted positions of regard in the minds of the populace. This, to me, is a flawed system and indicative of a rather shallow community who believe that showy strength and overwhelming confidence can solve everything.

reply to post by jonnywhite


On one level most would agree that humans have turned this once pristine world into a toxic, slightly radioactive garbage dump..with rapidly decreasing biodiversity and rapidly dropping oxygen levels.

This is a result of the human simulation which chokes the life out of us and is called 'human culture'. This is our primary 'matrix' which we have imprisoned ourselves in. Other more sinister simulations may exist; but until we throw off our own self-imposed bonds we won't have the clarity to find and deal with them.

KPB

damwel
well yeah, uh, duh. I'm sorry but for the folks who think that, they have to respond that way.

I have listened to a thousand arguements that existence is damnation, or that earth is a prison. My argument is that orgasm proves this isn't hell or maybe orgasm is the best life has to offer. One of those has to be right.

Think of it this way, Hell is actually worse than Earth.

For as bad as this life can be, it still groans under the ever loving grace of God, which prevents it from experiencing what it really is like to be far from God.

Until the Second death, when you no longer have God and therefore no more life, and cease to exist all together.

reply to post by IDNeon

Until the Second death, when you no longer have God and therefore no more life, and cease to exist all together.

Sounds good to me. A man can run out of things to live for, and honestly, it sounds like I'd get tired of this God person really fast.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by IDNeon

 

Until the Second death, when you no longer have God and therefore no more life, and cease to exist all together.

Sounds good to me. A man can run out of things to live for, and honestly, it sounds like I'd get tired of this God person really fast.

I've experienced a taste of friendship and family that I could never tire of, that alone would be heaven enough for me.

Your views of the world are nihilistic, which is the pure unadulterated form of Satan, who himself seeks the second death as his only release from the torment of being unreconciled with God.

reply to post by IDNeon

I've experienced a taste of friendship and family that I could never tire of, that alone would be heaven enough for me.

Somehow, I've gotten the impression that isn't the point of heaven.

Your views of the world are nihilistic, which is the pure unadulterated form of Satan, who himself seeks the second death as his only release from the torment of being unreconciled with God.

Yeah? Funny, that. Satan isn't judging me for being imperfect. Let me repeat that: Satan doesn't judge us. Satan didn't design me specifically to be in debt to him. He isn't holding me personally responsible for my flaws, and he sure as hell isn't asking for my soul in return for his kindness. In fact, I haven't heard a word from him. All I hear about is how much God is willing to make us suffer for not doing exactly as he says. I have a brain and a heart and a voice, but none of it is worth anything so long as I don't do exactly as he wishes. In fact, God sounds like John Kramer. You know who John Kramer is? The cancer patient from the Saw series? He didn't kill anyone. He just put them in the position to keep themselves alive precisely as long as they were desperate enough to sacrifice every inch of their mind and soul to be spared from their impending doom. The moment they gave up, they died a horrible and mutilating death. They had to embrace hell itself to escape his diabolical traps. That's exactly what God is doing. He forces us to make peace with pain and humiliation in order to earn our right to continue existing.

From where I'm sitting, God is a complete asshole on a power-trip the size of Jupiter. He is the one who has all the power in the universe and not one ounce of inclination to actually utilize it effectively. Every opportunity to save someone is an opportunity he deems unworthy. Yet we all owe him. We are all obligated to serve him for some mysterious reason that he has yet to explain other than some "creator's right of ownership" clause that negates our right to choose independence and still prove we can live peacefully and productively. Apparently, if I don't want to be immortal, I'm a retard. If I don't want to know God, I'm evil. And if I don't care to spend eternity in heaven in exchange for kissing his ass every time his chosen people lift a finger, I'm a waste of flesh that deserves to perish in flame and agony.

I would go on, but I'm bound by the rules of this forum, and they don't take kindly to the sort of language I'm tempted to use. I'll just finish by saying that if your god is real, and he destroys me for my rebellion, then I will have won. He will have released me from his control. That's my victory, and his loss. So he can either suffer me to exist in eternal rebellion, or he can release me. He's going to lose one way or another. And I will savor every minute of it until he does. I will not live a life of sycophantic subjugation and perpetual self-denigration, even if I must be annihilated to avoid it.

How's that for a sinful attitude?

AfterInfinity
reply to post by IDNeon

 

I've experienced a taste of friendship and family that I could never tire of, that alone would be heaven enough for me.

Somehow, I've gotten the impression that isn't the point of heaven.

Your views of the world are nihilistic, which is the pure unadulterated form of Satan, who himself seeks the second death as his only release from the torment of being unreconciled with God.

Yeah? Funny, that. Satan isn't judging me for being imperfect. Let me repeat that: Satan doesn't judge us. Satan didn't design me specifically to be in debt to him. He isn't holding me personally responsible for my flaws, and he sure as hell isn't asking for my soul in return for his kindness. In fact, I haven't heard a word from him. All I hear about is how much God is willing to make us suffer for not doing exactly as he says. I have a brain and a heart and a voice, but none of it is worth anything so long as I don't do exactly as he wishes. In fact, God sounds like John Kramer. You know who John Kramer is? The cancer patient from the Saw series? He didn't kill anyone. He just put them in the position to keep themselves alive precisely as long as they were desperate enough to sacrifice every inch of their mind and soul to be spared from their impending doom. The moment they gave up, they died a horrible and mutilating death. They had to embrace hell itself to escape his diabolical traps. That's exactly what God is doing. He forces us to make peace with pain and humiliation in order to earn our right to continue existing.

From where I'm sitting, God is a complete asshole on a power-trip the size of Jupiter. He is the one who has all the power in the universe and not one ounce of inclination to actually utilize it effectively. Every opportunity to save someone is an opportunity he deems unworthy. Yet we all owe him. We are all obligated to serve him for some mysterious reason that he has yet to explain other than some "creator's right of ownership" clause that negates our right to choose independence and still prove we can live peacefully and productively. Apparently, if I don't want to be immortal, I'm a retard. If I don't want to know God, I'm evil. And if I don't care to spend eternity in heaven in exchange for kissing his ass every time his chosen people lift a finger, I'm a waste of flesh that deserves to perish in flame and agony.

I would go on, but I'm bound by the rules of this forum, and they don't take kindly to the sort of language I'm tempted to use. I'll just finish by saying that if your god is real, and he destroys me for my rebellion, then I will have won. He will have released me from his control. That's my victory, and his loss. So he can either suffer me to exist in eternal rebellion, or he can release me. He's going to lose one way or another. And I will savor every minute of it until he does. I will not live a life of sycophantic subjugation and perpetual self-denigration, even if I must be annihilated to avoid it.

How's that for a sinful attitude?

edit on 10-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Satan does Judge, his name means the Accuser which more accurately is interpreted as "prosecutor".

Satan is the guy who when you're on trial comes up and says "HE'S GUILTY!" This is exactly his purpose as outlined in Job.

Everything else you say of God you might as well say of your own father. You should look your father in the eyes and tell him "I don't owe you anything old man, you fool".

But the great irony is the fact you think that by dying you have won, that is exactly what Satan would say.

reply to post by IDNeon

Satan does Judge, his name means the Accuser which more accurately is interpreted as "prosecutor".

Prosecutor and judge are literally two different positions. Look it up.

Satan is the guy who when you're on trial comes up and says "HE'S GUILTY!" This is exactly his purpose as outlined in Job.

That's the prosecutor, not the judge. And if God needed a scapegoat, the prosecutor would be the perfect position for that scapegoat. No one likes the prosecutor.

Everything else you say of God you might as well say of your own father. You should look your father in the eyes and tell him "I don't owe you anything old man, you fool".

I actually don't. My father was an alcoholic and a rapist, if you really want to know. He beat children and women. I don't owe him anything. And I don't want anything from him. Not even an apology. My life is better without him. He is dead to me, and I'm happier that way. A lot like God.

But the great irony is the fact you think that by dying you have won, that is exactly what Satan would say.

Then I agree with him. Apparently, that makes me evil and demonic and sinful and selfish and unworthy. Because I don't want to live forever. That makes all kinds of sense...oh wait, no it doesn't. It actually makes me feel rather good that I am an atheist. I would be seriously pissed off to learn that a god of that mentality actually exists. And I would go on a crusade. Really, I would. Just like America did with Hitler.

Because it would be either him or me. Unless, of course, he's willing to leave me and every other atheist alone to live our lives peacefully and die permanently at the end. And in that context, "atheist" would mean "without a god". I'm happy with that.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by IDNeon

 

Satan does Judge, his name means the Accuser which more accurately is interpreted as "prosecutor".

Prosecutor and judge are literally two different positions. Look it up.

Well you're right semantically but what I mean is Satan is Judgmental according to your own view of Judgment. Heavenly, God is Judge, but Satan will accuse you of all the things you've done to Him, like Satan attempted to do with Job, to show the division between man and his God.

Satan is the guy who when you're on trial comes up and says "HE'S GUILTY!" This is exactly his purpose as outlined in Job.

That's the prosecutor, not the judge. And if God needed a scapegoat, the prosecutor would be the perfect position for that scapegoat. No one likes the prosecutor.

Everything else you say of God you might as well say of your own father. You should look your father in the eyes and tell him "I don't owe you anything old man, you fool".

I actually don't. My father was an alcoholic and a rapist, if you really want to know. He beat children and women. I don't owe him anything. And I don't want anything from him. Not even an apology. My life is better without him. He is dead to me, and I'm happier that way. A lot like God.

The fact you cannot see that your own view of God is really just your own view of your Father shows a lot of intellectual dishonesty with your own self.

Not everyone's father is that way, and certainly not our Heavenly Father for as the Son said, "A Father does not give his child a snake for a present". And certainly, our Heavenly Father does not.

Only man fails us, which is why inevitably you must not put your faith in your own father.

But, you still owe even his drunken rapist ass for your existence, whatever that's worth.

But the great irony is the fact you think that by dying you have won, that is exactly what Satan would say.

Then I agree with him. Apparently, that makes me evil and demonic and sinful and selfish and unworthy. Because I don't want to live forever. That makes all kinds of sense...oh wait, no it doesn't. It actually makes me feel rather good that I am an atheist. I would be seriously pissed off to learn that a god of that mentality actually exists. And I would go on a crusade. Really, I would. Just like America did with Hitler.

Because it would be either him or me. Unless, of course, he's willing to leave me and every other atheist alone to live our lives peacefully and die permanently at the end. And in that context, "atheist" would mean "without a god". I'm happy with that.

edit on 10-10-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

By your own admission you so accurately reflect the "Great Controversy" between Satan and Jesus Christ.

But the fact you cannot reconcile this with the fact the Bible says this is exactly how someone going to Hell behaves...is strange, perhaps you should take a deep look at yourself and ask if the Bible can call out your own peculiarities so exactly then what do your actions actually mean?

AfterInfinity
reply to post by IDNeon

 

Satan does Judge, his name means the Accuser which more accurately is interpreted as "prosecutor".

Prosecutor and judge are literally two different positions. Look it up.

Satan is the guy who when you're on trial comes up and says "HE'S GUILTY!" This is exactly his purpose as outlined in Job.

That's the prosecutor, not the judge. And if God needed a scapegoat, the prosecutor would be the perfect position for that scapegoat. No one likes the prosecutor.

Everything else you say of God you might as well say of your own father. You should look your father in the eyes and tell him "I don't owe you anything old man, you fool".

I actually don't. My father was an alcoholic and a rapist, if you really want to know. He beat children and women. I don't owe him anything. And I don't want anything from him. Not even an apology. My life is better without him. He is dead to me, and I'm happier that way. A lot like God.

But the great irony is the fact you think that by dying you have won, that is exactly what Satan would say.

Then I agree with him. Apparently, that makes me evil and demonic and sinful and selfish and unworthy. Because I don't want to live forever. That makes all kinds of sense...oh wait, no it doesn't. It actually makes me feel rather good that I am an atheist. I would be seriously pissed off to learn that a god of that mentality actually exists. And I would go on a crusade. Really, I would. Just like America did with Hitler.

Because it would be either him or me. Unless, of course, he's willing to leave me and every other atheist alone to live our lives peacefully and die permanently at the end. And in that context, "atheist" would mean "without a god". I'm happy with that.

Seriously? you have allowed an unknown falsified idea as truth enter as an atheist belief system to qualify/quantify and define your life? I thought you were a signal flag for those sitting in your front pew row, unadulterated non god recognised as a material being. YOU WOULD BE CORRECT. There is no God other than that which we decide to describe it: as OUR BEING THE TOTAL GOD EXPRESSION OF ITSELF. Sorry, we are it and if you kill my brother or yourself in a miserable state of ignorance you kill not only a piece of me but a part of the whole as well.

CaticusMaximus
Thats just amazing. I was under the impression, having read (or thought having read...) that the intergalactic void could be estimated to have 1 hydrogen atom per cubic meter, with interstellar voids having more, of course, and more and more as you get into gas "clouds" and closer to other objects.

Thats a whole lotta nothing either way, though.

And the fact that matter is mostly empty itself, with the illusion of solidity coming from electrons repelling each other, really gives you the sense of an insubstantial place we live in.

I stand corrected.

It is roughly equal to the density of a grain of sand in 25 earth volumes.

If we include the "dark matter/energy" that accounts for the other roughly 96% of mass that we can't yet find, it is about the density of a grain of sand to 1 earth volume (assuming the universe is at critical density).

This tiny number is equivalent to 4 or 5 hydrogen atoms in a cubic meter of space, or, analogously, to the density of a grain of sand distributed over the volume of the Earth.

m.teachastronomy.com...

It is hard to comprehend just how vast and empty it is.

How about this one.....

Imagine squeezing all the space out of an atom. Well, if you did that to all the atoms in all the people in the world, you could indeed fit the entire human race in the volume of a sugar cube.

www.physics.org...