Catholic Hatred. (Impossible Thread, Episode #2)

WarminIndy

sad_eyed_lady


Regarding the Resurrection eggs, I heard it explained as a symbol for the stone that was rolled away from the tomb as an egg looks like a stone. Whether this is how the tradition came about I couldn't say. I guess I'd rather have a colored egg in my basket than a stone.

Anyhow, I saw it as nothing more than a fun game for kids to find those hidden eggs done only once a year. Maybe that all it ever was. If it was meant to represent a stone I think that idea did not get passed on through the generations.

Sorry if this has been mentioned. I only caught the tail end of this discussion.

The Easter egg is borrowed from Germanic paganism that a lot of pagans are really upset that Christians have taken it and they want their eggs back.

Even in China, eggs were seen as a fertility symbol and they were died red to place under a newlyweds pillow. There's references to eggs as being the symbol of fertility across the ancient world and even many religions believed the creation of the world was from an egg.

That concept pre-dates Christianity.

Pagans can't share? Shouda got a patent for it.

Those theiving Christians.

Seriously, thanks for sharing and excuse my inability to understand why it even matters.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Dear WarminIndy,

I'm getting to like you more and more, thanks for coming by. It's always refreshing to speak with a Christian filled with love (or, at least, working on it).

For me, symbolism from whatever source, is good if it turns my mind to holy things, and bad if it tends breed anger, greed, or anything else evil.

You've got an interesting spiritual position, kind of a "custom-made" religion. I assume it's a pretty good fit for you, and that you are growing in it. I would ask if you worship regularly with others. There are benefits to doing so, even if it isn't an exact fit. After all, we're supposed to be in God's church, not our own. I think that's why he told us to not neglect our gathering together.

But outside of wondering about it, I am not criticizing your choices.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by aboutface


Dear aboutface,

You didn't ruffle my feathers, you were very kind and reasonable. I'm grateful that you raised the objections that you did. Not only is my writing fuzzy, but I'm not always good at putting my ideas into words.

I mentioned the comparative statistics of abusing priests, because a poster had just said that it should raise a red flag that homosexuals and pedophiles were flocking to the Church. My purpose was simply to deny that a priest was more likely to abuse than the average man, and less likely than some groups. I don't intend to defend any abuser.

I am curious about your thinking though. It's true we don't expect a priest to abuse, because we see them as "Holy men." It's not always easy to know when to emphasize the "Holy" and when to emphasize the "Man." I do understand that it's more shocking to be abused by a priest, but the odds of being a victim at a priest's hands were never wildly excessive, and in the last decade the abuse has fallen to nearly record low levels.

You mention that their victims are extremely vulnerable. Wouldn't that lead you to expect very high numbers of abuse victims? If the kids are "sitting ducks" so to speak, wouldn't we be seeing them abused in astronomical numbers? Instead, it's roughly the same as anyone else and less than some.

This is not a defense. "The corruption of the best is the worst." I don't see the abuse as a particular condemnation of the religion. I think a better case can be made that management, the Curia, fell down on the job. But i don't see it as grounds for an attack on the religion.
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The artwork question comes up often, and I am of two minds about it. On the one hand is the argument you so forcefully presented. On the other hand, there are several things to consider. Man does not live by bread alone, let's say they sold everything to the bone. Who knows what they would get for it? But we do know that it would be spread all around the globe. The pieces sold to private individuals would never be seen again, or seen only at the whim of the owner. The pieces sold to countries would be paid for by the tax monies of the citizens.

I believe the Vatican when they say each piece is part of mankind's heritage, to be preserved and kept forever. I don't know what would happen if a piece went to a rock star, or Donald Trump. I'm just not persuaded that it would be a net plus to the world to get rid of the art, and the Vatican's position is not a religious one. Besides, Vatican City is, for all practical purposes, an independent country. They need the standard buildings that any country does. Are we going to sell the White House, or the National Forests, or Mount Rushmore? Lord knows we need the money.

The money changer's comparison is interesting, but Jesus' problem with that was that the worshipers were being cheated. His Father's house had been turned into a den of sin, and that was what Jesus was pissed at. If I remember correctly, it was Annanias and Sapphira (Or something like that) who were struck dead when they lied about what they had done with the proceeds from a land sale. (I know I should look this up, but I'm lazy) Was it Peter that said, "Hey, you're money is yours. Give it or not as you see fit. You can keep all the money, no skin off my nose. But when you go about lying to the Church about it, well, wailing and gnashing of teeth for you two."
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Minimizing women? Really?? The Church gets accused of worshiping Mary and minimizing women? Come on, fair's fair. Because women aren't priests, but are nuns and sisters, the Church hates and enslaves women? Who is the hot ticket on the fast track to Sainthood? Mother Theresa. We've already had a post or two admiring Joan of Arc.

Today, priests are so swamped with the calls on their time, at least in the parishes I know of, the women run the place. The Church is not making equal value of the genders a farce. Nobody says women are worth less than men. But it is only recently that women have begun claiming that there must be nothing set aside just for men. That swing in a society's taste is not going to overpower 2000 years of history. Jesus valued women, but there were none among His twelve.

Adam and Eve? Do you think the Church places primary fault on Eve and so all of womankind should forever be punished? I have never heard anything like that. I remember once, long ago, trying to make a woman subservient. It lasted about a minute and a half. The Church knows better as well.

It's very temporal and nowadays I have to wonder just how much longer they can sell this divisive dribble as society declines more and more?

Do you think headlines reading "Catholic Church Ordains Priestesses" will stop the decline of society?
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It has shown no signs of evolving or rising to the stature Jesus wanted for it. Pomposity and grandeur, kissing of rings, ughn. That is not a sign of respect but of reducing the dignity of the one who indulges in it.

I don't know, I see it as a sign of respect. Pomposity and grandeur? An American State Dinner probably matches it, and I know the Presidential motorcade is longer.

And I'm sorry, aboutface, if I replied more harshly than I should have. Feel free to scold me, or raise again any point it seemed I was too dismissive of.

With respect,
Charles1952

charles1952
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Dear WarminIndy,

I'm getting to like you more and more, thanks for coming by. It's always refreshing to speak with a Christian filled with love (or, at least, working on it).

For me, symbolism from whatever source, is good if it turns my mind to holy things, and bad if it tends breed anger, greed, or anything else evil.

You've got an interesting spiritual position, kind of a "custom-made" religion. I assume it's a pretty good fit for you, and that you are growing in it. I would ask if you worship regularly with others. There are benefits to doing so, even if it isn't an exact fit. After all, we're supposed to be in God's church, not our own. I think that's why he told us to not neglect our gathering together.

But outside of wondering about it, I am not criticizing your choices.

With respect,
Charles1952

Well thank you Charles1952, I try to be.

I have been to different churches in areas I have moved to, and I have moved around quite a lot. I currently am not in a church because of certain physical limitations, but I do gather with people when I can. I didn't try to make a custom religion, I just realized that there is value in all denominations, so I try to take the best that I can from them. I grew up in an independent Pentecostal church, but have some disagreements with them.

When it comes to denominations, I realize that they were all new at one time also. But I am not non-denomination either, because a lot of those do align with particular ones, even if they do not realize it. But I am definitely a Christian. Because I believe that we can experience God inwardly, through communication with Him and fellowship with Jesus as He said when He knocks on the door and we invite Him in, that we have fellowship with Him and we with Him, it becomes difficult to find churches that accepts me with that belief.

I seem to fit in with Orthodox Quaker in that respect, but I can't find any Orthodox Quaker in my area. And my physical limitation prevents me from going out.

I have made a lot of people nervous when I tell them that Pentecostalism is an experience, not a denomination. Many Pentecostals in denominational churches tend to think that Pentecostalism is new. However, it is a very old experience. I also believe this experience goes across denominational lines, there are Charismatic Catholics.

The first time I realized that there were born-again Catholics was when I was watching a Catholic priest on TV who was praying for someone and speaking in tongues. I had never heard it was possible outside of the Pentecostal denomination and thought that if God gives that to the Catholics also, then why are we making it a denomination?

Then I read about Hildegard of Bingen, that they called her a Christian mystic, but she was Catholic. I knew then that this was what I was. Why have the visions stopped in the Christian faith?

I tend to call myself Quakerish. I don't think I am trying to convince anyone to leave their denomination, but to experience God in that mystical way, inwardly. God is a flame of fire searching the inward parts of man, and we should follow God after the inward man. My faith is very personal and very real. I told someone several weeks ago that for me, the ultimate reality is God. Once I experienced God so deeply and personally, I could no longer doubt He was real. I grew up in a bad childhood, I was placed in the circumstance of seeing the adults around me profess to know Jesus but never lived according to it. So I searched for the answer, and found that it is not God's fault people do not live up to what they profess. That I should live what I profess.

I don't know how that makes a custom religion, but I think it goes back to the beginning. An experience with the Holy Spirit sparked the church into being. Those people gave their lives for their experience and faith.

Beyond anything I had ever known before, God became personal to me, because that's how I needed Him in my life. I don't believe that I am divine or can become divine, but that the divine dwells in all who accept Him. And this is not gnosticism, because I don't believe man becomes God, but that God became one man sent into this earth to redeem all men. That's what I believe. I don't believe in secret knowledge or that certain people can only have this knowledge if they do certain things or join certain groups. It's for all people in all times and in all places. But this God has revealed Himself to man in the pages of the Bible, but told us that we can know Him now.

I hope that makes sense to you about what I believe.

reply to post by WarminIndy


It is a proven fact after the war the Catholic church helped get many a Nazi out of Germany into the USA and South America. If you want I can post many a picture of preist giving the hiel hittler salute if you like or here is just one link when googling catholic and ratlines.
vaticanassassinsarchive.com...

charles1952
reply to post by guitarplayer

 

Dear guitarplayer,

I am really sorry you were banned. Unless you were behaving in an unacceptable manner, your subject or your views shouldn't get you punished.

I'm not sure I'm expressing this properly, but I don't mind Catholic haters if we can talk about things. I'm not fond of a conversation using phrases like "Devil worshiper," "Heretic," or "Pagan," but talking and listening is good for the mind.

I've never been on FreeRepublic, but I can guarantee that I won't complain because of your opinions.

Let me make a couple of posts on the Sex Scandal, and we can get back to it.



With respect,
Charles1952

On that site it was a lot of theological wrangleings between the Calvinist and the RCC and the non Cavinist and non RCC. Eventually all decent of the RCC was poopooed. Never got into name calling or anything like that it was just using scripture and logic to debate. Here is an example Calvinist beleive in deprivative of man and that it is predestination for salvation. Using the logic of depravative what are the odds that one of their children were not predestened to salvation are you willing for that child to go to hell? Well under their thinking all Calvinist and their children are predestened and none of their children are going to hell. Which makes God a respecter of persons and throws out that God gave His only begotten Son for all.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Dear WarminIndy,

I don't know what circles you travel in, but if it won't hurt your reputation, I'd like to list you as a friend.

For some reason, Rome doesn't seem to pushing Catholic mysticism very much. Not that they're forbidding it or anything, but they're not taking out full page ads either. I suppose that's because it is easy to run into some very dark places if you're not prepared, or don't have a guide.

I happen to like St. John of the Cross and the Carmelites, but everyone has their own taste.

TIME OUT In one of those situations that the world always calls a coincidence, and which I am sure is sometimes the prompting of the Spirit, something just came to mind. I stumbled on an interesting website last night. It's called MonkRock. MonkRock.com I've never seen anything like it. Please spend a couple of minutes looking around it. I'm not saying that it's right for you. I'm only saying that it's very different, and that it popped into my mind.

Here's something from the Catholic Encyclopedia about Mysticism.

But she teaches that, what man cannot know by natural reason, he can know through revelation and faith; that what he cannot attain to by his natural power he can reach by the grace of God. God has gratuitously elevated human nature to a supernatural state. He has assigned as its ultimate end the direct vision of Himself, the Beatific Vision. But this end can be reached only in the next life; in the present life we can but prepare ourselves for it with the aid of revelation and grace.

To some souls, however, even in the present life, God gives a very special grace by which they are enabled to feel His sensible presence; this is true mystical contemplation. In this act, there is no annihilation or absorption of the creature into God, but God becomes intimately present to the created mind and this, enlightened by special illuminations, contemplates with ineffable joy the Divine essence.

www.newadvent.org...

The sum of perfection: forgetfulness of creation, remembrance of the Creator, attention to what is within, and to be loving the Beloved.

From The Sum of Perfection St. John of the Cross

I wish you well on your path.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by WarminIndy


Warminindy,

I think you expressed yourself beautifully. Your beliefs are not too different than mine. Thank you for sharing. There are many roads that lead to the Lord.

Blessings,
Sad Eyed Lady

reply to post by guitarplayer

Dear guitarplayer,

I must confess (Ha! "Confess?" get it?) that when I saw your source was "Vatican assassins," I worried about their objectivity. That wasn't much helped when, at the bottom of the article, I saw:

Lastly, the above historical events was a mere part of WWI and WWII orchestrated by the Society Of Jesus (Jesuit Order) historically known as the SECOND 30-YEARS WAR. In the near future, the Jesuits controlling the Vatican Roma will do it again and the Bible said so.

OK. Got it.

So I did a little looking on my own, and this seemed to be a more balanced presentation:

However, meeting men like Pavelic should not be considered evidence of papal complicity in running escape routes, and the good news for Catholics is that Pius XII must be treated as innocent. Sometimes my interlocutor is big enough to admit that maybe it wasn’t Pius himself, but it was certainly “the Vatican” that helped Nazis on their way to Buenos Aires and Damascus. Once again, I have to disappoint, because there is no evidence of an institutional conspiracy to help the likes of Josef Mengele.

The bad news is that the Catholic priests who did help the Nazis, did so in a big way. They turned more than a blind eye to the criminal pasts of those they helped, and it is fair to say that without the assistance of such priests, the Nazis could never have fled Europe in such vast numbers.

The two most vital priestly cogs in the system of machinery that enabled the Nazis to escape through Austria and Italy were the Croatian Mgr Krunoslav Draganovic and the Austrian Bishop Alois Hudal. A keen supporter of Pavelic and his barbaric Ustashi, Draganovic served as a chaplain at Jasenovac concentration camps, where thousands were slaughtered in the most bestial fashion. Draganovic also played a key role in the “Bureau of Colonisation” which forced Serbs to convert to Catholicism, as well as stealing their property and giving it to Croatians. In the words of one US intelligence officer, Draganovic thought that “the ideas espoused by this arch-nationalist organisation – half-logical, half-lunatic – are basically sound concepts”.

archive.catholicherald.co.uk...

What do you think? Is that more likely?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


What a great wealth of wisdom and inspiration can be found in reading about those saints, their works and writings. I'm glad to know you discovered this and I am not surprised.

My favorite Catholic mystic is St. Pio (Padre Pio). I love St. John Vianney whose writings I have fastened to my soul with whoops of steel. I am a simple person and appreciate the simplicity of his wisdom.

reply to post by charles1952


Catholicism is a false religion. I know that some people believe that ALL religion is false, so this reply is directed at Christians and Catholics. Catholicism practices idolatry. It places Mary equal to Jesus, and they believe that Mary lived a perfect and sin free life, when the Bible clearly says that ALL men (and women) have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Baptizing infants is not Biblical at all. Confessing sins to another man is not Biblical. They believe in salvation through works, when the Bible is clear that salvation comes from faith and belief in Jesus Christ. Catholics believe that one can lose their salvation if they don't live right (again, works based salvation). The Book of Revelation refers to the Catholic Church, along with all other false religions, as the "Great Whore".

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

Dear sad_eyed_lady,

I hate living as a cliche, but I am. If I could go back in time I wouldn't worry about women, or career path, or body building. I'd go back to explore all the riches that the Church and her philosophers have. How much I have missed by not reading enough, praying enough, giving enough, and loving enough.

I don't believe I've said anything in this thread about the Catholic Church being better than any other church, but I will explain why I see it that way. I don't know how to explain the vast landscape the Church has created through hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. The love and devotion to God, the service and sacrifice, the beauty and brilliance of it's artists and thinkers, stretching as far into the past as one can see, and even further into the future.

I'm not saying that the other branches are incompetent, or ugly, or anything like that. But they don't have the sense of Time. Eternity in all directions, rooted in men who walked with Jesus. Maybe they told knock-knock jokes, or had an extra cup of wine as they went from town to town. Men who were persecuted and killed. Some who went to the desert, some who traveled the world, some who stayed at home and raised their children.

Philosophers, painters, farmers, musicians, scientists, generations of every type of person who gave themselves to God and the Church. Saints of incomprehensible holiness. Holy men who were tempted and fell.

To me the Catholic Church is eternal like nothing else on earth is. Hebrews spent thousands of years preparing themselves and their land for the one Holy Seed to come to this world. That Seed which grew and blossomed is watching over us, and will until the end of the world.

I wish I was young again, to see and feel His magnificence and love for all of my life. Who knows? Someone may read this and change their life. If so, all praise to God and His Spirit for working.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by WarminIndy

I have to give you points for your efforts. I was not trying to overlook other religions, but the title is specifically about Catholicism, so I was addressing that with which I was familiar. No harm meant.

reply to post by charles1952


If you look at all religions they are basically about sun and moon worship with some animal themes thrown in. The sun wheel at St Peters square is the same as the Buddhist. The Jewish god Jah,Yah, Yahweh is from the Egyptian moon god iah,Yah ,Jah this is why a lot of their names in iah Jeremiah, Hezekiah and so on. The Pope's Hat symbol is of the fish god dagon





JASENOVAC

One may claim that the religious motivation and the brutality of butchers were leading principles in Jasenovac. The fact that 743 Roman Catholic priests were members of the Ustashi and personally murdered Serbs, Jews and Gypsies. Jasenovac was for a time, run by Fr. Filipovic-Majstorovic, a Catholic priest who admitted to killing “40,000 Serbs with his own hands.” So at one point, a Franciscan monk was camp commandant of what the second largest concentration camp of the war.

Here's links for Jasenovac.
jasenovac.org...

www.cafebabel.co.uk...


Croat Ustasha unit in Vatican with Pope Pius XII, 1943


You will see these facts and still be a catholic that means there is a part of your brain that believes it but the other part wont except it ( cognitive dissonance)

The Popes did bad before what makes you think they don't do it now. This is a multitude of bad things they do while the innocent suffer ,their parishioners as well as non Catholics. Catholicism is easy to pick on because there is a list more than a mile long of the atrocities they have committed. So either their god is pretty evil because these things are done in gods name or it is completely man made. These priest or popes don't act very Christ like do they.
I guess you can take joy in giving your money to the church(Vatican) to support these guys. But in the end you are going to believe what you want to believe.

By the way protestants aren't much better.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

Dear OptimusSubprime,

Hello there, thanks for coming by. I'm not sure some of those points have been raised before, so I'm glad you did. Out of curiosity, did you happen to read the thread? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Really, just curious, I'm not slapping you or anything.

Catholicism is a false religion. I know that some people believe that ALL religion is false, so this reply is directed at Christians and Catholics.

We've been lucky in that virulent atheists have decided to avoid this thread, so directing it to Catholics and Christians is quite appropriate. By "false" religion, do you mean a religion that has doctrines different from the ones you accept and believe to be true? Or, do you mean something else.

Catholicism practices idolatry. It places Mary equal to Jesus, and they believe that Mary lived a perfect and sin free life, when the Bible clearly says that ALL men (and women) have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

When you mention idolatry, I assume you're talking about Mary, but if you're talking about statues let me know and we can go into that as well. Catholics don't place Mary equal to Jesus. Jesus is God, Mary isn't. Jesus outranks Mary by miles. Mary was created by God, Jesus is God.

Your thought about Mary not being sinless because a verse says "all have sinned," is interesting. Isn't there a verse that says something like once we die and after that the judgment? In any event we know that all men die. But . . . we've got this:

Hebrews 11: 5 (KJV) it says "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

So, by your reasoning, the Bible is lying, and I don't want to go there. Can't we agree that God can make a one-time exception in Mary's case, to prepare a holy and sinless womb for His Son to be in? (It's called the Immaculate Conception.) Beisdes, no one in the world was closer to Him than Mary. They had a relationship beyond anyone else's except for the Father and the Spirit. I don't see a problem with making Mary special among all humankind.

Baptizing infants is not Biblical at all.

Well, can you show me where in the Bible Baptism is commanded to only be for adults? And really, it's not unbiblical at all. Didn't Jesus say that you couldn't enter the Kingdom without being baptised by water and the Spirit? That makes it mighty tough on three-year olds who get run over by a chariot on Pharisee Lane at Donkey Drive.

Confessing sins to another man is not Biblical.

The Bible does tell us to confess our faults to one another, and to seek forgiveness of the one we've offended before we lay our gifts before the altar. So, here we are, told to confess our sins. Further, you might not agree that Peter was given the power to bind and loose on earth and in Heaven, and to forgive sins, but Catholics believe it, and can make a pretty good argument for it.

They believe in salvation through works, when the Bible is clear that salvation comes from faith and belief in Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure you quite understand Catholic teaching on that point. Faith is necessary, but not sufficient, for salvation. I may be misunderstanding what you mean by works, however. The Church requires faith, but also believes that faith without works is dead.

Catholics believe that one can lose their salvation if they don't live right (again, works based salvation).

I've never been really convinced by the "Once saved, always saved" argument. True, your salvation can not be taken from you, but you can give it up on your own. That's what sin does.

The Book of Revelation refers to the Catholic Church, along with all other false religions, as the "Great Whore".

Interesting interpretation, but there are other possibilities. Nobody says Revelation is crystal clear.

I'm glad you asked, let's talk some more if you care to.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


You have now. You cast your bread upon the waters and maybe some here will find a blessing and a lesson in your self-reflections.

“The highest courage is to appear to be what one is.” ― John Lancaster Spalding

reply to post by celticdog

Dear celticdog,

Welcome back. Good to see you again, I was hoping you'd stop by. I see you've got some interesting stuff.

If you look at all religions they are basically about sun and moon worship with some animal themes thrown in.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I would expect in the early religions. Actually, I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case. The sun and moon were mysterious, important, far away in the sky, unaffected by anything man could do. I can see it, makes sense.

The sun wheel at St Peters square is the same as the Buddhist.

What is the significance of that? The sun is round, the circle is round, everybody uses circles. Are you saying that Catholicism is a form of Buddhism? (I've always wondered why they call it St. Peter's Square.)

The open space which lies before the basilica was redesigned by Gian Lorenzo Bernini from 1656 to 1667, under the direction of Pope Alexander VII, as an appropriate forecourt, designed "so that the greatest number of people could see the Pope give his blessing, either from the middle of the façade of the church or from a window in the Vatican Palace" (Norwich 1975 p 175). Bernini had been working on the interior of St. Peter's for decades; now he gave order to the space with his renowned colonnades, using the Tuscan form of Doric, the simplest order in the classical vocabulary, not to compete with the palace-like façade by Carlo Maderno, but he employed it on an unprecedented colossal scale to suit the space and evoke emotions of awe.

The paving is varied by radiating lines in travertine, to relieve what might otherwise be a sea of cobblestones. In 1817 circular stones were set to mark the tip of the obelisk's shadow at noon as the sun entered each of the signs of the zodiac, making the obelisk a gigantic sundial's gnomon.

en.wikipedia.org...
So the "sun wheel" is only 500 years old, and is more of a sun dial than anything else. Sorry, I don't see a problem here.

The Jewish god Jah,Yah, Yahweh is from the Egyptian moon god iah,Yah ,Jah this is why a lot of their names in iah Jeremiah, Hezekiah and so on.

I suppose you're right, I haven't got the foggiest notion about Hebrew and Egyptian names. Are you saying Jesus is an Egyptian name? I don't get your point.

The Pope's Hat symbol is of the fish god dagon

Well, what took the Church so long then? That hat didn't even exist before 1000 A.D. I'm not convinced they even knew about Dagon then. Did they go along just fine for a millennium, then said "Ooops! we forgot to pay homage to our true god Dagon?"

One may claim that the religious motivation and the brutality of butchers were leading principles in Jasenovac. The fact that 743 Roman Catholic priests were members of the Ustashi and personally murdered Serbs, Jews and Gypsies. Jasenovac was for a time, run by Fr.Filipovic-Majstorovic, a Catholic priest who admitted to killing “40,000 Serbs with his own hands.” So at one point, a Franciscan monk was camp commandant of what the second largest concentration camp of the war.

This all sounds very terrible to me. (As a small point, almost irrelevant, Filipovic-Majstorovic, had been defrocked before this. He was Catholic, but not a priest.) It seems as though the Croat priests put their nationalism and hatred for the Serbs ahead of their Christianity and their duties, and committed a terrible sin. May God have mercy on their souls. A horrible stain.

You will see these facts and still be a catholic that means there is a part of your brain that believes it but the other part wont except it ( cognitive dissonance)

I can believe that they did evil. If Catholicism taught them or instructed them to do evil, that would be one thing. But the horror of it is, in part, that they violated their oaths, they violated their teachings, they went against what the Church teaches.

The Popes did bad before what makes you think they don't do it now.

The popes are men. There will be some bad ones, as in the past, but many more will be giants of courage and holiness. Catholics do not worship the Pope. The character of an individual Pope, cannot destroy the Church, the Church is more than one man.

This is a multitude of bad things they do while the innocent suffer ,their parishioners as well as non Catholics. Catholicism is easy to pick on because there is a list more than a mile long of the atrocities they have committed.

I'm not as sure of that as you are.

So either their god is pretty evil because these things are done in gods name or it is completely man made. These priest or popes don't act very Christ like do they.

Some do act Christ-like, some don't. Neither a Pope, nor any man, is God. Many priests, nuns, and lay people have given their lives in helping and speaking out to protect others. I think your view may have become a little skewed. Certainly members will do bad things, and certainly members will do astonishingly saintly things.

Chesterton said of the Catholic Church: "The Church is not a museum for saints, it is a hospital for sinners."

With respect,
Charles1952

Catholicism practices idolatry. It places Mary equal to Jesus, and they believe that Mary lived a perfect and sin free life, when the Bible clearly says that ALL men (and women) have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Mary is a human being. No Catholic believes she is God or His equal. Mary is the "Immaculate Conception" even some Catholics are mistaken and think that refers to Jesus. Jesus is God incarnate. The Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived without original sin.

Pope Pius IX had proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. For centuries this doctrine-----that the Virgin Mary had been conceived and born without the taint of Original Sin-----had been a pious belief among the ordinary people; but the proclamation of 1854 had made it part of the Church's official teaching.

www.bernadette-of-lourdes.co.uk...


I chose this link as it is about the Marian apparition to an uneducated peasant girl. Mary told the girl (Bernadette) "I am the Immaculate Conception" which had been proclaimed as dogma four years prior to the apparition. Interesting read if you never heard of it.


It is not well understood that dogma is not new teaching, it is the result of people doubting the validity of beliefs long held and to clarify the controversy the Pope declares what it holds to be truth. (Put very simply).

reply to post by charles1952


thanks for the thread, Charles
- and i enjoy reading yours, you re Always thoughtful and courteous -

... - i dont think anyone [ here] ' hates ' catholics
perhaps catholism as system, yes ; but barely the souls involved

its just the system, itsélf, that is Misrepresenting God.
the catholic vieuw is one of a Closed World, with Heaven somewhere unknowable above that.

...this can be observed even better in her [ sister] counterpart, the Orthodox [eastern] church;
where
the 'world' is completely seperated from 'the church' ;
where the world is totally seperated from heaven,
you can see that in the almost mystical, superstitious Rituals, the church performs;
a reality, totally Foreign to the people who live everyday in this dark world.

- the moment, they step into the orthodox church, they 'are in heaven'[ according to the church] ,
but that world does not correspond with everyday life
is not Embedded
has no relation, whatsoever.
and therefore, the Eastern soul is almost....schizophrenic,
so Huge is the difference.

likewise, but not thát extreme, it is with the catholic world.
...she Usurps, claims, the entire area of the world, untill the border of heaven,
not letting héaven come directly to the soul of people,
but only "via them"
via their system

and in fact, that is Illegal ;
is what is known as 'nicoalites', a mortal standing between God and another soul ;
exercising claimed authority,
and therefore Prone to many false teachings,
but the worst is, this model Obfuscates God to that other soul

in one word, "the catholic system is about Misdirecting "
off-centred

therefore,
catholicism feels to me like standing in a gift shop, full of candles and paintings
- but one Never gets to see the Owner

best wishes,

Lone12
reply to post by charles1952

 

therefore,
catholicism feels to me like standing in a gift shop, full of candles and paintings
- but one Never gets to see the Owner
best wishes,

I know what the presence of God feels like, I have experienced it. I have felt it in few Protestant churches, but two surprising places was in a synagogue and a Catholic church.

I can tell you that when I went to my friend's son's barmitzvah, just sitting there looking at the cabinet that had their torah scroll and the reverence the men had when giving it to the young man to read from, I felt the owner at that time. I remembered when Jesus was handed the Torah and read from Isaiah and said "this prophecy is fulfilled in your ears today". People might not think God still moves among the very people He called, but He was there that day. The young man read from His word with such reverence, it overwhelmed me and I had to cry.

I once went to a seder meal hosted by Messianic Jews, at each point in the meal, they would explain what it meant. I began to see the night of the Last Supper of our Lord Jesus Christ. When the man brought the bread down and said what Jewish people always say at seder meals, "this is the bread of life which comes down from heaven" and then Jesus referring to Himself in that, it was an amazing thing that since Moses, they were talking about the Messiah.

The other time was when I went to my cousin's daughter's First Communion. Most of the people in there I had gone to school with and was familiar with them. One lady got up to read and as she was reading, I felt her faith so strongly. Not one mention in her reading was about Mary, but it was so beautiful with the reverence she displayed while reading. I felt the owner that moment also. I knew this lady when we were in school, she had been a bully and very cruel to me as a child. But we grow up and we do change. Since then she has apologized to me, but it was up to me to forgive her, which I had done. I did not look at her as though she were still a child.

There has to be something real in her life that could change her that much. I say it was Jesus Christ.

I have been in Baptist churches and wanted to get up and run out because it was so incredibly boring, the preacher droned on and on in monologue. I once left a Pentecostal service in the middle because the pastor was talking about beating his wife and children to discipline them.

I worked at a radio station in North Carolina. We had live broadcasts and because it was a religious station, many preachers in the area had programs. I can't tell you how many times these preachers would get on air and attack Catholics. It got so bad that people complained to the FCC and we then had to record everything that was being said and if we knew a preacher was about to make a certain statement attacking someone else, we were instructed to cut them off. Freedom of speech only goes so far. I was fired from that station because these preachers complained about "that little Pentecostal lady needs to go or we stop our programming". Money means a lot, even in Christian radio.

I was not fired because of low ratings, I had the highest ratings according to Arbitron. I had a listening audience from Bristol, Virginia to Savannah, Georgia. Even though our station was small market and religious at that, I had the highest ratings for our market. The biggest radio station in the area, JoyFM, would listen to my segment to hear what music I was playing and they began to play the same thing, after I did. It's always a good day when someone is driving down the interstate and stops to call you on their cell phone just to say "I was driving and stopped to call you to thank you for playing that song, I needed that today". She felt the owner that day.

God is where faith is. He shows up when people worship Him or read from His word. The Torah is still His word and just because not all Jewish people have accepted His Son yet does not mean that God does not call from them either. He did 2,000 years ago to a group of Jews who became the Christians. Have faith in God that He will do His word, it will never return void to Him. Have faith that God has called Catholics as well.