Catholic Hatred. (Impossible Thread, Episode #2)

reply to post by charles1952


Sorry I should have expanded further instead of saying people know better now. From what I can remember it was the catholic church that came up with the idea of purgatory and damnation from what I have read that wasn't part of the bible before. I believe it was an added control just like the candles to get those out of purgatory were basically a money making scam. If Jesus is quoted speaking about hell then I am wrong and will gladly admit it.

I think you will find that most who profess hating or seriously disliking the catholic church will be ex-catholic themselves. For whatever reason.

One thing I do dislike the church for is their libraries which they keep a tight lid on. I do understand that the texts are extremely fragile and preciouse but I guarantee you if they opened them to the world to be cataloged and digitized for all there would not be a shortage of qualified experts that would be in line to help them do so. I can't remember the last time they released information from there. I feel it's the worlds knowledge and history so to me it's like they are perpetrating a crime by withholding it.

As far as the birth control issue I can kind of understand their stance I just don't agree with it and thing it is destructive especially to poor nations where aids and overpopulation is an issue. Do they really think condoms are sinful?

Anyway the new Pope seems alright the old one reminded me of the emperor from star wars you have to admit he was creepy. Well anyway your right the issues of the scandles are a big issue that could warrant its own thread.

One day we will have that drink. No worries I have issues I am dealing with myself right now.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Thanks W ,
Perhaps I was being defensive !
This has been a very civil thread so far considering the subject matter

reply to post by charles1952


I think the reason for any hatred towards the Catholic Church are these, not in any particular order.

Their dubious History.

(from Inquisitions, Crusades, Nazi's)

Pedophilia.

Personally, I am not a follower of the Church even though I was baptized Roman Catholic.

I put ALL Religion into a certain category. Something to be weary of. MHO


S&F

charles1952
What’s behind this hatred?

- Some of it is well founded. LIke what the Catholic missionaries did to the American Indian children. That is inexcusable. And it was sanctioned by the Church.

- Some of it is just self righteous ignorance that they get from people they trust. Like when Baptist preachers claim that Catholics worship Mary. The people trust their preachers to tell them the truth. But the preachers do not. Catholics do not worship Mary.

- Some of it is that some people try to make themselves feel better by dis'n others, even when there is nothing to dis them about. Children in grade school do it. They'll gab away with mean gossip about certain other students in order to try to make themselves feel better.

- Some of it is just plain ol' human stupidity.

- Some of it is not really hate, but is instead a person posting facts that the Catholic doesn't like.

reply to post by charles1952


Charles, I thought about it this morning and wanted to share one thing. I hope this isn't taken in the wrong way, because I'm not trying to stir the pot. But one of the reasons some people don't like Catholics is because they are constantly called heretics by some Catholic people. I realize that not all Catholic people are like this, so it's not a broad generalization. But when you have the word heretic bandied back and forth from both sides, eventually it does cause some hard feelings.

If you have ever been on Paltalk (a chat messenger service), you can run into this every day. I heard that Pope Benedict said that we are no longer heretics and I am sure that is a hard one for some Catholic people. I do realize that there are many faithful and believing Catholics who do love Jesus and keep His commandments. But then you have some that like the feeling of authority they think being Catholic gives them. But here's a Catholic who believes the Catholic church post Vatican II isn't really Catholic...
Peter Dimond

But another reason for hatred is the idea of "there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church" and that people who hold to "sola scriptura" are heretics.

It really has become a tit-for-tat thing among Christians. Both sides haven't really learned to accept the fact each have a faith. "come, let us reason together" as the prophet has said.

Dear Charles, my friend,

I hope you won't mind a little fun injected into your thread...

If I were going to join the Catholic Church, I would want Father Guido Sarducci to be my priest (sadly, he's only a gossip columnist for the Vatican).

reply to post by wildtimes


We get paid $14.50 a day....rofl.

Here's another video I think is funny. It's the Joan of Arc song from Horrible Histories on the BBC.



I don't care what your religion is, Joan of Arc is one of the most awesome women ever in the history of the world. Of all the people I want to meet when I get to heaven, Joan of Arc is definitely one of them. People are always talking about wanting to meet Peter or Paul, but I think it would be incredible to meet her. Like I said before, I am not Catholic, but I fully believe Joan of Arc went to heaven. Did you know that as she was being burned at the stake, she asked for a cross to be level with her eyes and went out of this life professing the name of Jesus Christ. That takes strength and presence of mind to keep your faith even unto that kind of death.

I don't want to get into arguments over whether or not she was a victim of politics or religious fervor, I just accept that she was a faithful witness to her death. Much respect for Joan of Arc.

reply to post by Grimpachi

Dear Grimpachi,

Good morning to you, and to everyone. Just woke up and I'm bright tailed and bushy eyed. Thank you everybody for not destroying the thread overnight.

Concerning Hell, one place where Jesus talked about it is in Luke 13:22-28

22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Purgatory was, for a while, used as a backdrop for selling indulgences. The idea being that you could get out of Purgatory more quickly if you donated to the Church according to a fixed schedule. It was wrong and has been declared sinful under the name "Simony." Simony comes from Simon Magus who wanted to buy the powers of the Spirit from the disciples. I suppose the temptation was always there, but it became a problem in the Middle Ages. You can find it today in preachers who offer to sell a piece of cloth for $100 with the claim it has spiritual powers. If they're lying, it's fraud. If they're telling the truth, it's simony.

I think you will find that most who profess hating or seriously disliking the catholic church will be ex-catholic themselves. For whatever reason.

That may be true. I suspect anyone who wrenches themselves out of a religion are going to have harsh words for it. Why leave, otherwise? I suspect that's true for any group a person has invested a lot of themselves in.

One thing I do dislike the church for is their libraries which they keep a tight lid on. I do understand that the texts are extremely fragile and preciouse but I guarantee you if they opened them to the world to be cataloged and digitized for all there would not be a shortage of qualified experts that would be in line to help them do so. I can't remember the last time they released information from there. I feel it's the worlds knowledge and history so to me it's like they are perpetrating a crime by withholding it.

Oh, goodness, Grimpachi, someone's been feeding you bad information. The secret Archives are open to scholars and many use them. Basically, if you have a graduate degree in a relevant field, the support of some recognized University, and a fair idea of what you're looking for, your in. Lots of people research in the archives.

In the 17th century, under the orders of Pope Paul V, the Secret Archives were separated from the Vatican Library, where scholars had some very limited access to them, and remained absolutely closed to outsiders until 1881, when Pope Leo XIII opened them to researchers, more than a thousand of whom now examine its documents each year.

The use of the word "secret" in the title "Vatican Secret Archives" does not denote the modern meaning of confidentiality. Its meaning is closer to that of the word "private", indicating that the archives are the Pope's personal property, not belonging to those of any particular department of the Roman Curia or the Holy See.

Qualified scholars from institutions of higher education pursuing scientific researches, with an adequate knowledge of archival research, could apply for an entry card. Scholars need an introductory letter by either a recognized institute of research or by a suitably qualified person in the field of historical research. Applicants need to specify their personal data (name, address etc.) as well as the purpose of their research. Undergraduate students are not admitted.

en.wikipedia.org...

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I am a born and baptized Catholic, and I still attend Catholic Mass somewhat regularly, although I am more of a non-denominational Christian than a Catholic, but I still view the Catholic Church as a valid path to walk with Christ to Heaven, the main things that stop me from being fully confirmed into the Church and being fully devout are that I do not believe in Marian prayer or praying to Saints, and I also have a hard time believing that the Eucharist is literally the body and blood of Jesus, nor do I believe that Jesus really wants us to literally eat His flesh and blood, plus many Catholics are extremely arrogant and hypocritical, when I was homeless I would go to the Catholic Church and sometimes I would hear people mocking me saying things like "he smells" or "what is HE doing here?", etc,

James 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?


God bless

reply to post by WarminIndy

Dear WarminIndy,

Your post is true and saddening. I followed your link and found It very upsetting. Mr. Dimond is not someone I would want as a spiritual leader. I don't know what to say about him. He seems to have a large audience and I find that discouraging. It's not the way to go about things. I'm reminded of the speck in your neighbor's eye and the beam in your own.

I don't know if there is any value to the word "heretic" outside of learned discussions in Canon Law and Theology. It strikes me as being similar to "Racist" or "Homophobe," just a verbal club of hatred. I'd be upset to be called heretic, myself. If our goal is to bring souls to Jesus and eternal happiness, then attacking with "Heretic" as our banner is as wrong as it can be.

If you have ever been on Paltalk (a chat messenger service), you can run into this every day. I heard that Pope Benedict said that we are no longer heretics and I am sure that is a hard one for some Catholic people.

Never been on Paltalk, but were the Pope's comments the ones that Mr. Dimond opened his blog with? The ones that said there was a significant difference between an old split and a new one?

I think the Pope was correct. I have no problem with saying that that a split in Christian unity is a bad thing, but once it has happened and become established, the attention has to switch from condemning and preventing, to loving and healing.

But another reason for hatred is the idea of "there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church" and that people who hold to "sola scriptura" are heretics.

The Catechism itself says

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

I'm afraid that Catholics don't know what the Church teaches, either.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by wildtimes

Dear wildtimes,

The video was hilarious! Thank you. I can imagine Mob enforcers reincarnated as Nuns. Their previous life of breaking knee caps with crow bars would explain knuckles and rulers.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by WarminIndy

Dear warminIndy,

Thanks for the video, I had never heard of the series. That's something I think we're missing out on. We keep hearing about bad people and events, but the churches have many great heroes and holy people that can inspire us. But nobody, including me, seems to know much about them.

St. Lawrence, for example, is the patron saint of comedians. He was being put to death on an iron grating over a fire. The emperor had given instructions that the fire should not be too hot, because he wanted to prolong Lawrence's death. After being burnt for a while Lawrence called out "Turn me over, I'm done on this side."

Ok, not a knee-slapper, but pretty darn good considering he was only a few minutes away from becoming a crispy critter.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by FlyersFan

Dear FlyersFan,

I took only a quick look and didn't discover what the missionaries did to American Indians. Could you help me to learn more about it?

I did run across this:

In truth, the plight of the Native Americans in North America was the source of great concern to the Church, and missionaries distinguished themselves for their heroic defense of Indian rights. There is no question that European colonialism wrought vast troubles for the tribes and cultures of the New World. But it is unfair to blame the Church for the actions of the European powers—who regularly punished the Jesuits, Franciscans, Augustinians, and countless priests, nuns, and laypeople for speaking out in defense of the suffering natives. John Tracy Ellis, one of the fathers of American Catholic historiography, wrote:

"No informed person would endeavor to maintain that the churchmen were always in the right, but by the same token no one can deny that they were generally on the side of the angels in their treatment of the Indians. It was the outraged voice of the friar, Bartolomé de las Casas, which first made Europe aware of the fate that had befallen thousands of the natives in enslavement by the Spanish conquerors. As it was the agitation aroused by Las Casas and his kind that prompted Pope Paul III in 1537 to issue the bull Sublimis Deus in which he declared: "The said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ." (American Catholicism, 5)"

www.catholic.com...

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


And, "hovering over a grill in a cheap restaurant at 4 feet elevation, forever (and ever )" would be equivalent to, erm, HELL....right??

Glad you enjoyed it.

Well, I have been critical of the catholic church.

Mostly because of their misrepresentation of Christianity through out history, they like to say they are the original and one true church.

They are not, most of their history is filled with persecution of people who questioned their teachings straying from the bible, and it is the largest riches religions in the world.

The riches religion whose founder said it was easier to get a rich man through the eye of a needle than for them to be saved...

The Catholic church is filled with all kinds of direct contradictions to their own holy book, from Purgatory, to Priest and Nuns being celibate as a requirement, to celebration of pagan holidays and Idolatry.

All backed by the traditions of man, throwing out what the bible says often as Tradition will trump doctrine apparently.

I have this rule, if you are apart of a religion you better follow your holy book otherwise you aren't really representing your beliefs well. Often times catholics ditch their Holy book for a newagie what feels right belief in it, further misrepresenting their own faiths.

charles1952
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Dear warminIndy,

Thanks for the video, I had never heard of the series. That's something I think we're missing out on. We keep hearing about bad people and events, but the churches have many great heroes and holy people that can inspire us. But nobody, including me, seems to know much about them.

St. Lawrence, for example, is the patron saint of comedians. He was being put to death on an iron grating over a fire. The emperor had given instructions that the fire should not be too hot, because he wanted to prolong Lawrence's death. After being burnt for a while Lawrence called out "Turn me over, I'm done on this side."

Ok, not a knee-slapper, but pretty darn good considering he was only a few minutes away from becoming a crispy critter.

With respect,
Charles1952

OH I just had a long out loud laugh at Lawrence. That was EPIC!!!. That's how I would like to be if I were ever burned by a Roman emperor.

reply to post by godlover25

Dear godlover25,

Thanks for the excellent post. You hate what God hates, so I'd say you're on the way. Arrogance and hypocrisy are bad things. Of course, they're not the only bad things. It is sad and sinful that people display those attitudes. It hurts a lot and it's very difficult to forgive and love in those circumstances.

But concerning the difficulties you're having, praying to the saints and praying to Mary are pretty much the same thing. How are you on asking Guardian Angels to keep a close watch? I'm trying to get a handle on where the problem comes in. Is it because they're dead? Or, as spirits, they're not concerned with us? What?

I understand the difficulty with believing the Real Presence, but there has been an amazing pair of completely unexplained events indicating the Host really is Christ's Body. The really hard part for me is not believing that the Host is His Body, but believing the Host is no longer bread.

I don't know what to tell you about Jesus' desire that we eat His Body and drink His Blood. As one of my children used to say, "Ewww, Gross!" But what can we do? It's pretty clearly stated in Jesus' words, in a manner that doesn't seem to be a parable or a metaphor, over and over.

Let's talk some more, but I'm running off to a doctor's appointment.

With respect,
Charles1952

wildtimes
reply to post by charles1952

 

And, "hovering over a grill in a cheap restaurant at 4 feet elevation, forever (and ever

)" would be equivalent to, erm, HELL....right??

Glad you enjoyed it.

Couple that with St. Lawrence and you have the ultimate weight loss program. Talk about burning calories for eternity.

I've never really paid enough attention to it to be certain, but my guess is that distrust and/or hatred of the Roman Catholic church (as opposed to Christians in general) is largely a phenomenon of the UK and its colonies, such as the United States. During the Reformation, both the Protestants and Catholics absolutely vilified the other side, in a addition to slaughtering them on a grand scale.

If you read the stories of the saints martyred in England in the 1500s, most of them end with the person on the gallows, about to be hanged and then drawn and quartered, professing allegiance to the King, but professing a stronger allegiance to God. From the Church of England point of view, it was political disloyalty to King and country, from the Catholic view it was "God first, King second", and that's obviously going to be played in a deeply negative manner by both sides. Things like the "Popish Plot" and Guy Fawkes simply fanned the flames of suspicion and disdain that the government, as well as the Church of England, was using to their advantage.

That transferred to the United States, where there was only one Roman Catholic signer of the Declaration of Independence, Charles Carroll. In the US, it was furthered by a dislike and distrust of immigrants, whom were seen as not being very loyal to the country, as well as taking jobs away from "natives" (native only in that they immigrated here before the new guys.) In popular media, the 2002 film Gangs of New York shows that perspective quite well.

Boss Tweed: That's the building of our country right there, Mr. Cutting. Americans aborning.
Bill: I don't see no Americans. I see trespassers, Irish harps. Do a job for a nickel what a n****r does for a dime and a white man used to get a quarter for. What have they done? Name one thing they've contributed.
Boss Tweed: Votes.
Bill: Votes, you say? They vote how the archbishop tells them, and who tells the archbishop? Their king in the pointy hat what sits on his throne in Rome.

There seems to be less of it in places where either the Catholic church remained the dominant religion (such as South America) and where the Protestants were too busy killing each other (central Europe, specifically Germany and Holland,) to go after the Roman Catholics with a focused effort.

I'd like to say that we've beyond it, in this day and age, but you'll still find posts on ATS every day with condemnations of Roman Catholics, much of which is rooted in misunderstanding, willful or not.

reply to post by benrl

Dear benrl, good to see you again.

I'm putting off the discussion of the sex scandals for a little while longer. I'd rather speak with you first.

Well, I have been critical of the catholic church.

Fine, the people in positions of authority have done some things that need criticizing. Nothing wrong with that.

Mostly because of their misrepresentation of Christianity through out history, they like to say they are the original and one true church.

Well, I would think they have a pretty good case for claiming to be the original. There really wasn't any alternative to them for at least a millennium. I don't know who else could consider themselves the "original." As far as the one, true, church goes we still have the "original" problem.

If Jesus founded "His" Church, I don't see any alternative to the Church as it existed in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and so on, centuries. He was pretty clear that the Church He founded was the early Christian Church. Now, if some claims it isn't, aren't they going to have to show that Jesus unfounded the Church, and founded another in at least as clear a manner as His first Church? I think that would be hard to do, especially since He said that His church could even withstand the power (gates) of Hell.

They are not, most of their history is filled with persecution of people who questioned their teachings straying from the bible,

I'm not sure that was the case. May I encourage you to read this article.
catholiceducation.org...

Most people accused of heresy by the medieval Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentence suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed. If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely departed out of hostility to the flock, there was nothing more that could be done. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to the secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Church did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.

There is much more. The Inquisition has been mis-represented for about 500 years.

and it is the largest riches religions in the world.

The riches religion whose founder said it was easier to get a rich man through the eye of a needle than for them to be saved...

Christianity is the largest religion in the world, and Catholicism is the largest denomination, but as far as wealth? I suppose it depends. ("It depends" being one of my two favorite answers. The other is "Yes and No.") On one hand it has untold wealth in it's art and historic buildings in Vatican City. On the other, the Church has always declared that those things were gifts to it, and they must be preserved for all Humanity and all Time. There has never been even a hint of a whisper of selling the Sistine Chapel to McDonald's. A thing that can't be sold, is a thing without monetary value.

The buildings outside Vatican City are owned by the respective parishes and dioceses. The Pope doesn't have any legal title to them. They were paid for by the local Catholics (In most cases.) In 2011 Vatican City had revenues of about $300 million and expenses of about $325 million. They get most of their money from selling stamps, books, other souvenirs, and from a voluntary contribution taken up around the world called Peter's Pence. The Vatican is not wealthy.

The Catholic church is filled with all kinds of direct contradictions to their own holy book, from Purgatory, to Priest and Nuns being celibate as a requirement

I think you'd have a hard time finding clear, direct contradictions. The Bible doesn't say there is no Purgatory. Celibacy is a discipline adopted by the Church, a "job requirement," so to speak. If you're thinking of 1 Timothy 3, I would argue that the emphasis is on "a Bishop must only be married once," not that he has to married married. The letter is talking about being irreproachable in conduct. That is the job requirement, not marriage.

I flatly deny the charge of Idolatry. The Church does not commit that sin. Celebration of Pagan holidays? The Church doesn't do that either. A holiday may fall on the same day as a pagan holiday, but that day and festivity has been transformed into something entirely Christian.

All backed by the traditions of man, throwing out what the bible says often as Tradition will trump doctrine apparently.

You may not be clear on what is meant by Tradition. First it doesn't trump Scripture in the Catholic Church. Second, it is largely the sayings, writings, and interpretations given by the Apostles and their followers which weren't put into the Bible. The Church had many issues to deal with after Jesus set them up and started them on its mission to the world. We can see their words and their teachings and profit from them.

Often times catholics ditch their Holy book for a newagie what feels right belief in it, further misrepresenting their own faiths.

If a Catholic does this, you are quite right, they are not representing their faith well. That's one of the reasons I put those two news articles in the OP.

With respect,
Charles1952