Catholic Hatred. (Impossible Thread, Episode #2)

This thread requires the assistance of Catholics, Catholic haters, and the honestly curious.

I am only a sheep, not a shepherd, but I’ll share what I know. I count on others to aid and correct me.

Dear ATSers,

This is a follow-up to a recent abortion thread, in which I came to believe that mutual understanding and agreement was impossible. Here’s number two in the series, dealing with hatred towards Catholicism.

There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing.

Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen (1931)

There have been a number of threads and posts declaring Catholicism to be Satan worship, with it’s adherents condemned to Hell. What’s behind this hatred? Who has a harsh word for the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, or Unitarian Universalists? There must be something unique about the Church that sets it apart. I’ll offer my opinion up front, in case you can’t be bothered to read further.

What makes the Catholic Church unique is Authority.

I understand that some may not agree it has authority, but it does claim that authority, often, vigorously, and through a score of centuries. Consider some of yesterday’s news items:

Vatican Chief Justice: Nancy Pelosi Must Be Denied Communion

cnsnews.com...

Pope Francis excommunicates pro-gay marriage priest. He's not the liberal the media wants.

blogs.telegraph.co.uk...

Opposed to what the world currently thinks, the Church claims there is an objective right and wrong, and the Church knows what it is because God told us in the Bible and through the workings of the Holy Spirit. But our world doesn't like playing by the rules, we even get upset to learn there are rules.

But that’s not what I expect to be discussed, it would be nice, but I’m expecting things like:

“I disagree over points of doctrine, such as the idea that Tradition should have any weight, or that the doctrine of the Real Presence is true, or that there should be a single head of a church, or I disagree with infallibility, or Sunday worship.”

That’s fine, and will make for a good discussion, but as grounds for hatred?

Other objections are grounded in wealth:

“Oh, the Church has trillions of dollars, is planning on owning the whole world, Popes dress far too flamboyantly.” As a matter of taste, one can’t argue, but as a matter of accounting, the facts aren't there. (To be honest, it sounds like envy.)

Another common criticism is that some men of the Church did bad and wicked things. I’m really not surprised. Did you expect anything else? What examples are used?

Crusades, Galileo, Inquisition, Priests molesting boys, Vatican Bank, Ummm, nothing else comes to mind, but I’m sure I’ll be helped out.

In my opinion, which we can discuss, those events are either misunderstood, exaggerated, or not so unusual in a large organization. I don’t mean they were completely excusable, they were clearly wrong. But to go from a proper understanding of them to hatred for the Church is difficult for me to understand.

There are also some ideas which strike me as really strange, things like:

“Catholics think the Pope is God, they worship Mary, they worship Pagan gods and goddesses, they worship Satan in blood rites under the Vatican.” There’s not much room for discussion there. No, they don’t.

HERE’S WHAT I’D LIKE TO SEE.

We can go down two paths, and I sincerely hope my elder brothers and sisters come by to offer their assistance.

One, in conformity with “Denying Ignorance,” I’d like to see questions raised and answered about the Church. That’s probably most beneficial for everyone.

Two, I’m really, really curious. Why the hatred? Why hate an entire church? I’d really like to know. I know Jews get hated, and have been forever, but Muslim hatred is recent and it seems society tries hard to defend them. I don’t know of any other religion so widely condemned.

You've got my opinion, I’d like yours.

If we can keep the hyperbole, ranting, and completely bizarre statements out of it, we’ll probably get more accomplished. I did label this an “Impossible Thread.” Please prove me wrong. I really want to learn here, and discourage hatred, so teach, don't yell.

With respect,
Charles1952

1st off - not a hater , nor believer

Each to their own provided you are not hurting anybody


I believe it's possibly overflow from centuries of people being unable to hate the church.
For such a long time it seems that the Catholic heiararchy was infallible and unquestionable.
It may not be "new" exactly - just the haters of the past ended up burnt , tortured or worse.

Given recent (no pun intended) revelations , people possibly feel justified in their disillusionment and anger right now.

Lies, cover-ups and evil deeds breed contempt.

reply to post by charles1952


My 2 cents worth is that many Catholics believe that they are hated or that they are being persecuted. Which to me is an over inflated ego of importance.

reply to post by skonaz

Dear skonaz,

Thank you, I appreciate such a good start. May I try to get your comments clarified in my mind?

I don't think anyone alive today, or even in the last two or three centuries, experienced a Church that couldn't be argued with or which used any kind of torture. It seems you're saying that recent events have led to the harsh feelings.

Of course, Catholics were hated in America basically from it's beginning. Even with Kennedy, his religion was seen as a handicap until he promised it wouldn't affect his decisions. Immigrants, such as the Irish and Italians were hated, partially for their nationality and partially for their religion. "Bead Counters" and "Fish Eaters" were common phrases as was "Papist."

But for "recent events," do you mean the child abuse?

With respect,
Charles1952

charles1952
This thread requires the assistance of Catholics, Catholic haters, and the honestly curious.

What makes the Catholic Church unique is Authority.

I understand that some may not agree it has authority, but it does claim that authority, often, vigorously, and through a score of centuries.

Another common criticism is that some men of the Church did bad and wicked things. I’m really not surprised. Did you expect anything else? What examples are used?

Crusades, Galileo, Inquisition, Priests molesting boys, Vatican Bank, Ummm, nothing else comes to mind, but I’m sure I’ll be helped out.

“Catholics think the Pope is God, they worship Mary" No, they don’t.

Why the hatred? Why hate an entire church?

For one, I don't personally hate the Catholic church but as you've pointed out they've done some pretty despicable things. For the average person some of those things are hard to get past. I could get past the ancient stuff but the new stuff is kind of difficult to accept. Especially with the cover-ups and moving priests to hide their crimes.

Believing the pope speaks with the voice of god is another stumbling block. He's just a man. Whether god talks to him directly... well millions of christians claim the same power.

It has authority over people who believe it but that's all. It has no more supernatural authority than any other organization that claims the same. Though as you pointed out they killed a lot of people exercising that "authority."

So, hate them, no.
With respect,
-B

reply to post by guitarplayer

Dear guitarplayer,

Perhaps I'll have to dig up some links to recent threads. There do seem to be some extraordinarily strong feelings against Catholics. But if, as you say, there is no hatred, then I am a happy man indeed.

With respect,
Charles1952

charles1952
reply to post by skonaz

 

Dear skonaz,

Thank you, I appreciate such a good start. May I try to get your comments clarified in my mind?

I don't think anyone alive today, or even in the last two or three centuries, experienced a Church that couldn't be argued with or which used any kind of torture. It seems you're saying that recent events have led to the harsh feelings.

Of course, Catholics were hated in America basically from it's beginning. Even with Kennedy, his religion was seen as a handicap until he promised it wouldn't affect his decisions. Immigrants, such as the Irish and Italians were hated, partially for their nationality and partially for their religion. "Bead Counters" and "Fish Eaters" were common phrases as was "Papist."

But for "recent events," do you mean the child abuse?

With respect,
Charles1952

Yes the child abuse and the cover up there of I is what I was referring to,
but more and more historical things coming to light also.
It really wasn't that long ago that the crusades , inquisitions etc were formally recognized and apologised for.
Certainly people have been able to criticize the church for some time but until very recently this still could have left you ostracized by your family and community due to the nature of the church itself.
I also think hate is a very strong word , which is why I chose disillusioned / contempt.
I don't justify hatred of anything - just throwing out there what I would percieve to be reasons that someone may have some hostility.

If you are catholic you may take some of the criticism more personally or have amplified the actual levels of anger.

I personally percieve more and more indifference to the church.

reply to post by Bassago

Dear Bassago,

Thanks for your comments, they give me something to work with.

I assume you, also, are talking about the sexual abuse cases.

Believing the pope speaks with the voice of god is another stumbling block. He's just a man.

That one can be dealt with fairly quickly. In recent times, the Pope has made only two statements intended to be infallible, both about Mary. The immaculate Conception was defined in 1854, and the Assumption in 1950. Even in those statements, Catholics don't believe he is speaking with the voice of God, just that he is protected by the Spirit from error. As far as any other statement the Pope might make, nobody is required to think it's the voice of God. ( I don't know of anyone who does.)

It has authority over people who believe it but that's all. It has no more supernatural authority than any other organization that claims the same.

They have authority over the members, but they also claim spiritual authority over all humanity, as given to it by Jesus.

Though as you pointed out they killed a lot of people exercising that "authority."

Here, I suppose, you're talking about the Inquisition. I was surprised to learn that over the 500 or so year existence of it, they killed an average of about 10 a year. That's a lot of people. But, it's not millions, as I've heard claimed.

Thanks again. (Oh, I liked your "Rules for Gunfights" thread. May I add "Duck! Bullets have the right of way?")

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


As an American who believes in the First Amendment, we might not agree with any religion, but people have the right to express their religious faith, as long as they don't kill anyone for it.

I might not be Catholic, but Catholics have the right to worship how they want. That's the American way. I hope many Catholic bashers will just realize that if their rights are to be respected, then they need to respect others rights to worship. I may disagree greatly with Islam, but Muslims have the same right to worship here as citizens, but not to enforce Sharia, because that is against the Constitution which guarantees the right of people to freely express their religions.

reply to post by guitarplayer

Dear guitarplayer,

I ran the word "Catholic" through our search engine (Which I don't care for, by the way) and on the first page of either the first or second link I found this:

And when you google "SS" in 'light' of the occult Nazi / Catholic connections you realize SS also means Saint Peter and Saint Paul. Did Hitler see these two Saints as his apostles as assisting him in his tasks, the mythical St. Peter, the first Pope, some claim?
The Schutzstaffel ("defense squadron"), or SS, was also a large paramilitary organization that was a principal component of the Nazi party.
And were these activities with or without the consent of the Vatican?
Does the Vatican have a cross to bear in regards to Jews?
hmm

Have we been duped big time?
Who really resides in the Vatican? What omnipotent force has taken up residence there?
Does the hypocrisy of the extreme wealth of the Church make sense if we allow our imaginations to accept that the metaphorical 'Satan' was tossed from heaven so looong ago, so how would he organize and present himself after thousands of years, how would he attempt to fool us into following him?
Would he deceive us by pretending to be our friend providing comforts and security or by erecting and manufacturing enemies to be feared and thus protected from or both?
Desire and Fear.

And one more fact that keeps us collectively off the 'straight and narrow and off balance, non-centered and this is perhaps why we keep falling off that path either to the left or to the right....
The Church in its history has supported the military.
Today the Vatican supports the US War machine with money...ironically with energy stolen through the centuries from those they have oppressed.
So what has happened to separation of Church and State?

I saw this as fairly mild, but I was too lazy to look for more. I will if you'd like, however.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I myself do carry some contempt.
I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school / church as a boy.
I was not "abused" in the sense it has been spoken of here however:

I now consider being forced to confess my "sins" as a 7 year old to a scary old man behind a curtain an abuse of sorts.
I remember being unable to sleep and being physically ill from fear that I had committed the grave sin of taking some cookies from the pantry without asking permission.
Being shown images of a man nailed to a cross and speared in the side and told it was my fault is still horrifying to me and tantamount to abuse in my opinion.

Thanks for an Interesting thread Charles1952 - seems to have stirred some emotions I had forgotten were still there.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Dear WarminIndy,

I have to thank you and the other posters. I thought there was more anger than is being displayed here. Examination of ideas and love of people is what I'm hoping for here.

Oh, I see my next project for this thread will be to post some information about the Child Abuse scandal. A terrible thing, but also misunderstood in parts.

With respect,
Charles1952

charles1952

I assume you, also, are talking about the sexual abuse cases.

Catholics don't believe he is speaking with the voice of God, just that he is protected by the Spirit from error. As far as any other statement the Pope might make, nobody is required to think it's the voice of God. ( I don't know of anyone who does.)

Yes about the sexual abuse. As far as the pope being infallible (or not) I wasn't aware. Just what I was taught growing up. Lead by the Spirit is different than infallibility.

They have authority over the members, but they also claim spiritual authority over all humanity, as given to it by Jesus.

I guess claiming spiritual authority over every human doesn't make it so. They have no spiritual authority over me or anyone I know. I think they've interpreted that power unto themselves but it doesn't make it true.

Though as you pointed out they killed a lot of people exercising that "authority." Here, I suppose, you're talking about the Inquisition.

Actually also the crusades and also all the heathens & blasphemers they caught following Martin Luther's teaching. They were pretty ruthless.

Thanks again. (Oh, I liked your "Rules for Gunfights" thread. May I add "Duck! Bullets have the right of way?")

Absolutely add to it. I'll update for a final draft after a while.

Good thread. Now first as you probably already know I personally don't see the catholic church any different than any other church or religion. No hate for them I just don't have any use for them.

I may be wrong with my recollection but wasn't it the catholic church that came up with the fire and brimstone stuff then purgatory? If so there may be a backlash because people know better now. Education for the masses is a fairly new thing when looking at the past few hundred years so I can imagine that there are quite a few family's that have held those beliefs steadfast down through some generations. It hasn't even been a hundred years where people could really question things or speak their minds without to much fear of reprisal on such issues.

I mean this is only my opinion but I can see how people could feel lied to then you add in the scandals along with confirmation bias and you get some angry crowds. Or you have a lot of people that rember catholic school and mean nuns. Just guessing with that last one.

Anyway it's probably a combination of a lot of things many of which you touched on I will say their tendency to tell people what they should or shouldn't do in the bedroom doesn't help things like birth control that pisses a lot of people off.

reply to post by skonaz

Dear skonaz,

Yeah, I know what you mean. "Fear and Trembling." It never dawned on me that a seven-year old would have a very hard time committing a mortal sin with intent. But I was really worried anyway.

I don't know how many years and side trips to different religions it took to realize that I need have no fear. The good that I get from it far outweighs any small remnant of embarrassment I had when younger.

I kind of like the idea of confessing to a priest. Sometimes when we pray, we don't hear God's voice, but when a priest says "I absolve you of your sins," you know it's happened and there's no doubt that they're gone. That's encouraging for me.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by skonaz


I don't think the Catholic church is more guilty of child sex abuse than any other religion. The problem people have with it is that they hear Catholics say they are the authority of Christ on earth and the priests are vicars of Christ.

But to lay it all on Catholics is simply wrong, you can find child sex abuse in atheist and agnostic homes as well. And you can find it in every religion on earth.

Here is what I always say "Don't blame God for the failures of men to live by what they claim".

WarminIndy
reply to post by skonaz

 

I don't think the Catholic church is more guilty of child sex abuse than any other religion. The problem people have with it is that they hear Catholics say they are the authority of Christ on earth and the priests are vicars of Christ.

But to lay it all on Catholics is simply wrong, you can find child sex abuse in atheist and agnostic homes as well. And you can find it in every religion on earth.

Here is what I always say "Don't blame God for the failures of men to live by what they claim".

I don't recall saying that the Catholic church was any more guilty of it.
I also don't recall laying it all on Catholics.
defensive much ?

The OP asked why the hatred , I threw up some reasons I percieve may be possible reasons someone may have - Not an attack or judgement from me personally.

reply to post by Grimpachi

Dear Grimpachi,

How wonderful to see you in a thread! I still want to take you up on your invitation, but money is really tight.

I may be wrong with my recollection but wasn't it the catholic church that came up with the fire and brimstone stuff then purgatory? If so there may be a backlash because people know better now.

As far as I know you're right on Purgatory, but a place where those judged to be deficient go after death seems to be just about everywhere.

Purgatory makes sense to me. Assuming that nothing unholy can stand and reside in the presence of God, what do we do with people who have a few small sins that they haven't repented of at death? Hell would be unjust, but they're not "clean" enough for God, so Purgatory serves, as it's name indicates, as a place of cleansing so one can enter God's presence.

But "People know better now?" What scientific advance has occurred which has disproved the existence of Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven? Was it some discovery in Physics? We "know" it? If we do indeed know that there is no Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory, I've got a lot to rethink.

I mean this is only my opinion but I can see how people could feel lied to

I'm grateful for your opinion. Do you think that is still going on today? Do many people today suddenly feel the Church is lying to them?

then you add in the scandals

I certainly will have to put in a discussion on the sex scandals. That seems to be big. It is certainly bad and can't honestly be ignored.

Or you have a lot of people that rember catholic school and mean nuns.

I'll bet there are some who do have terrible memories of that. But, for good or ill, that's fading into the past. There are still some, but it's not the same.

Anyway it's probably a combination of a lot of things many of which you touched on I will say their tendency to tell people what they should or shouldn't do in the bedroom doesn't help things like birth control that pisses a lot of people off.

I think that goes back to the authority issue. The Church thinks that the creation of new life through sexuality is a very spiritual thing, as well as physical. A new soul is brought into being, and the Church feels that's a proper area for them to be involved in.

With respect,
Chares1952

I hope you fine people will excuse me. It's 2 a.m. here. I plan on getting some rest and will come back with a discussion on the Sex scandal. (Why are so many scandals about sex?) Please be patient with me.

Good night, I wish you all Peace and Love.

reply to post by skonaz


I think there may be some confusion, I was not trying to imply that you had made that claim, I was giving a casual mention of what many people might read what you wrote and it would lead to some greater conflict. That's all.

Sometimes I answer with my thoughts out loud, it doesn't mean that I was counter-attacking your statement. Maybe if I started with "You know, this is how I think....", then it might have gone a little better.