deadly train derailment in Spain

"That's an interesting point about the video.. if it appeared suddenly on the social networks, but was not a officially produced by the authorities, then who produced it? Was there someone else there doing the filming?

If the authorities are unwilling to make confirmations that the video is theirs, then that means the video is coming from some other source.. maybe Mossad? As it had been stated earlier, that video came out virtually immediately after the train had crashed, making the entire circumstance and accident totally suspicious."

I thought this needed to be repeated.

reply to post by tony9802


It's indeed a mistery who posted the video as i said before
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I also believe there is more footage from cameras
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The camera from where it was recorded is on the footage i posted earlier
elpais.com...
You can also see the other cameras i was talking about in an earlier post.

Today i saw an interview with a train expert here in Spain, saying the train is capable of taking that curve at 200km/h and it could well be that because of a security brake pulled or automated system, at the moment it was taking the curve, it derailed.

About the media(not all) here, it's quite disgusting and unrespectful, showing dead bodies, constantly asking at those who came to help how it was, what's the first thing they say, what did you feel, what were you thinking, what did you feel when seeing those bodies,...? Damn those reporters.
Not to mention how they portrait the driver with his 'speeding history' and how he was a speed freak? wth

I'm actualy glad he is refusing to speak to the police at the moment.
ccaa.elpais.com...

I didn't knew the driver said 'joder' if so he would mean F # K!

reply to post by intergalactic fire


Here is an article with an alleged but brief description of what had happened according to the train conductor and this information is in elpais.com (english).

Alleged "First" reconstruction of events by the driver:

"The Talgo rail firm, which uses internal speed controls in its trains, informally confirmed on Thursday that the train was traveling at an “extreme speed.”

In his first reconstruction of events, Garzón confirmed that an alert did go off in the driver’s compartment, and that he pressed a button to acknowledge that he had received the excessive speed warning.

But if that was the case, why did he not put on the brakes? Why would a train driver with so many years of experience take a sharp bend at a dangerous velocity?"

elpais.com...


By the way, jode can mean simply "merde," such as sh*t as in "shoot,"

I'm pretty sure people say this everyday and very casually, so it's not necessarily the f- word. It is slang and normally vulgare language in general, but it does not necessarily mean fu**. If folks can't even even do simple translations in the press, we're in big trouble for big news politics. French press by the way stated that he said "J'ai merde," which is more at "I shat it".

It just seems like everyone is trying too hard to make this guy look bad. One other thing though, asking questions immediately to victims and survivors alike seems like a way to obtain as much information as possible since everyone there is and has been in a huge panic about everything. I don't think the press is intentionally trying to manipulate or take advantage of these people from whom they are gathering information..
I would maybe say that they are gathering and containing the solidarity that exists, and doing so quickly even if it might seem insensitive and perhaps a bit overreaching.. There's a few ways to look at that also..

Originally posted by Bluesma
Last week when the train derailed in Paris, reports said it was caused purposely- it was a terrorist attack of some kind. Something fairly small was put on the track, which caused the high speed train to derail.

Now, I wasn't paying a lot of attention, I was in the middle of an intense workweek, and did not watch any television. I was limited to hearing what my husband and collegues were telling me, and the reports on the car radio.

This weekend, I heard on the radio angry assertions that the press never should have come out with the information on how it was caused because it let the world know how incredibly simply and easy it is to cause such a catastrophy- and could incite anyone (from serious terrorists to dumb kids) to do it.

For a day, everyone was talking about how irresponsible the press had been on that.

Now all reports that can be found are vague about the cause, and make unclear references to some sort of technical error or faulty rail. Earlier reports seem to have been taken off the web, at least.

So this makes me wonder if all over Europe, with the loud condemnation of the press's indiscretion, possible purposeful sabotage of trains will not be publicized as such?

You just need some kind of ramp to pop a wheel over a track and momentum takes care of the rest.

I was once in a high-speed train when someone jumped in front of it - a slight thump from the front of the train, then you felt and heard every carriage jump with a ka-chunk ka-chunk sound going all the way down the train.
Nobody was allowed off the train for 30 minutes at the destination, and when we did get off the entire front of the > shaped front of the train was shielded by white canvas all the way round.

Originally posted by Cyprex

Originally posted by goou111
reply to post by Senduko

 

I mean really how many times have you hard about deadly train wrecks? Prior to this year..

Honestly, I can't think of any

A minimal amount of research shows about 40 per year.
Mostly India and China.

List of Rail Accidents between 2010 and Present

The number per year almost doubles after 2005.
List of Train Accidents between 2000 and 2009

edit on 7/24/13 by Cyprex because: (no reason given)

Rail is by far the safest means to travel. It is safer than roads and safer than airplanes.

Accidents happen due to multiple causes - human error, sabotage, technical deficiencies etc.

A lot of accidents in India's eastern regions are due to sabotage. However people in these areas prefer to travel by trains as roads are much worse.

More than 50% of all passenger traffic is handled by rail in India. It could be a similar figure in China.

Rail is the way to go. Rail is the solution to this world's energy problem. Electronics has made huge improvements in rail safety. Better traffic management and safety devices have been incorporated in the rail system.

I like what Bluesma posted so I'm going to re-post it: it's perfect:

Originally posted by Bluesma
"Last week when the train derailed in Paris, reports said it was caused purposely- it was a terrorist attack of some kind. Something fairly small was put on the track, which caused the high speed train to derail.

Now, I wasn't paying a lot of attention, I was in the middle of an intense workweek, and did not watch any television. I was limited to hearing what my husband and collegues were telling me, and the reports on the car radio.

This weekend, I heard on the radio angry assertions that the press never should have come out with the information on how it was caused because it let the world know how incredibly simply and easy it is to cause such a catastrophy- and could incite anyone (from serious terrorists to dumb kids) to do it.

For a day, everyone was talking about how irresponsible the press had been on that.

Now all reports that can be found are vague about the cause, and make unclear references to some sort of technical error or faulty rail. Earlier reports seem to have been taken off the web, at least.

So this makes me wonder if all over Europe, with the loud condemnation of the press's indiscretion, possible purposeful sabotage of trains will not be publicized as such?"



What you're saying is that ultimately it is feasible that neither the authorities nor the press agencies of any given government are going to be willing to share with the public the truth about these train accidents. Wow, that is so terrible, deceptive, and heartbreaking..

If you wonder why the driver is being targeted and accused, even before a real investigation, just like every other thing in this world today, it's al about money.
Deadly Spain rail crash threatens to derail export bid

Driver of train that derailed in Spain has been charged with 79 counts of homicide by professional recklessness

www.cnn.com...

Another tragedy has occurred last night in Italy: Pilgrims travelling and returning from a shrine, near Avellino, outside of Naples have fallen victim to a bus crash and collapse: here is the headline and the link:

"Italy coach crash: At least 39 killed after bus plunges 30 metres off flyover near Avellino"


"A burst tire may have caused last night’s horrific coach crash in southern Italy that killed 39 people after the vehicle plunged 30 metres from a viaduct, it has emerged.

The coach was carrying 48 pilgrims, including children, back from the shrine of Padre Pio when the driver lost control at approximately 8.30 pm local time, near the town of Avellino in the hills outside Naples."

See article for the rest of the terrible preliminary information. www.independent.co.uk...

reply to post by tony9802


Here is the ATS thread started for the Italian bus crash..www.abovetopsecret.com...&flagit=961924

Originally posted by tony9802
"That's an interesting point about the video.. if it appeared suddenly on the social networks, but was not a officially produced by the authorities, then who produced it? Was there someone else there doing the filming?

If the authorities are unwilling to confirm that the video is theirs, then that means the video is coming from some other source.. maybe Mossad? As it had been stated earlier, that video came out virtually immediately after the train had crashed, making the entire circumstance and accident totally suspicious."

I thought this needed to be repeated.

From what I can see in the videos the camera was mounted on a pole by the side of the track. It looks as though it is a wired unit and not a wireless camera. If the camera is a wired device then it would have been connected to a control room somewhere, possibly the main local signalling control room.

For the video of the incident to appear so quickly means that either the video feed was being tapped into and recorded by a third party or someone at the control room made a copy and immediately released it into the public domain. Personally, I don't think there was a third party filming the crash as they would have been splattered by the leading locomotive which at the point in time had turned on its side and was moving along the side of the track at a very fast rate of knots.

It would appear that many people are quick to quote the words the driver said immediately after he was rescued from the wreckage but he was in telephone contact with the control room before the train left the track. He said something like 'I'm doing 190km/h. I will derail'. It's obvious, at this point, the driver had serious concerns about the speed at which the train was travelling and by knowing that a very tight curved section was ahead.

The driver had worked the route for over a year so he would have been very familiar with all the different sections of track. Did the automatic braking system fail but by the time the driver realized what was happening he took control manually but it was too late? Could it possibly be that the action of hard braking in some way contributed to the events that followed?

Then there's the question of the signalling. Renfe say that braking should have been applied 4km before the start of the speed-restricted curve. What indication was being given by the signals at the 4km distance? Were they set to indicate that the speed of the train should be reduced so that the appropriate amount of slowing down would take place? An experienced driver, knowing what was ahead, would have allowed plenty of time to reduce the speed of the train but something may have prevented him from doing so.

Questions should also be raised about the trackbed on the curve at the site of the accident. I have noticed that there hardly any camber or 'cant' on that section of the track. It would seem that the track on the curve is near-level. Surely there should be a steep camber on a tight curve to allow for the 'runaway' train effect or trains travelling round the curve at speeds greater than the mandatory 80km/h?

Just some points I thought I would raise but we shall have to wait for the outcome of the inquiry before all the facts come out. At this point in time the driver should not be condemned as there are many other circumstances leading up to what has turned out to be a very tragic accident.

May the departed souls rest in peace.

Originally posted by goou111
Driver of train that derailed in Spain has been charged with 79 counts of homicide by professional recklessness

www.cnn.com...

The term the driver actually utilized is "Despiste" which actually means I was "absent-minded", or I had a "lack of concentration".. he did not state that he had been "reckless" as is stated in numerous news articles about his comments.

Originally posted by tony9802
reply to post by tony9802

 

Here is the ATS thread started for the Italian bus crash.
www.abovetopsecret.com...&flagit=961924

This is important: Here is another train crash that has occurred just tonight Monday evening, at about 7-8:00pm EU time. This one has occurred at Lausanne, Switzerland- 44 persons have been reported injured.

Two trains apparently collided into one another. This actually just occurred about 2-3 hours ago:

Link to the news article: rt.com...
Link to the ATS thread :www.abovetopsecret.com...

Something obviously isn't right..

Strange
That's a lot of train crash

I was very surprised to see footage of the Spanish rail disaster appear so soon on youtube and other sites, but making a search on the youtube reveals that someone with the username of 'ali ahmad' posted a video of the crash and also another video that you may find of interest.

The first video is of the train derailing and the second is a cab view on the same stretch of line.

Coincidence or could there be a link? Does the person with this username work in the renfe control room?

What do you think?

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Really it was the horrible accident which I have seen on the T V, I was shocked when i come to know about the accident, 79 people were killed in that, but anyhow the drive was saved. The train was running almost twice of the speed

Originally posted by Petson
Really it was the horrible accident which I have seen on the T V, I was shocked when i come to know about the accident, 79 people were killed in that, but anyhow the drive was saved. The train was running almost twice of the speed

Yes, on entering the troublesome tight curve the train was travelling at well over the madatory 80km/h limit, but the big question is what caused the driver to not slow down in the 4km straight section before entering the curve?

It was reported that the train was 5 minutes behind schedule. On the AVE high speed lines it is also known that full refunds are offered if an AVE train is more than five minutes late arriving at its destination. The driver would probably receive a fine for being late although this has not been confirmed. This situation has to change in the interests of safety as it places an unnecessary mental strain on the drivers of high speed AVE trains.

Could there possibly be other circumstances that may have contributed to the derailment even though the train was way over the recommended speed? It was reported by a railway expert that the train should have been able to take the tight curve at 200km/h. My own view is that this so-called 'expert' doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.

From looking at the available videos there is a definite clue as to why the train derailed on the curve and it is all to do with the engineering of the track. When they laid the track on the tight curve they forgot one thing and that is, what would happen if a train entered the curve at well over the recommended speed? Would the train stay on the track or would it derail? Unfortunately, it took a tragic and fatal accident to find out the answer to the question.

I feel sure that over the coming months Renfe will start a track re-engineering programme on the curved section. If they don't, then there has to be something drastically wrong with the management structure within that particular organization.

The context is totally political and financial.

After reading pages and pages of news reports, forum posts and watching the videos I felt I had to say some things.

First of all Rajoy, Spain’s prime minister had been in deep trouble lately and reportedly would had stepped down if there wasn’t this train crash. His name among others is involved in a big scandal in Spain.

In order to realize the full political context though we have to take into consideration the way EU works, especially during the last few ‘crisis’ years.

Spain, along with the other countries of the European south is massively in debt. Furthermore we all know that 99% of the political parties all over the globe are sponsored by the financial oligarchies. I’m not familiar with the political life in Spain, but I know this: Counties in debt are the easiest ones to manipulate, infiltrate and sell out its resources to these oligarchies through their sponsored politicians. The EU constitution is above the one of the nation + during the ‘crisis’ all major decisions are made in the close circuit of high ranking European political and financial ‘officials’.

My first conclusion is that some people wanted Rajoy to remain in charge for a little longer. The scandal in Spain is huge and if it weren’t for the accident Rajoy would be in serious trouble. So why keep him in the job for a little longer?

Another very important point in the whole context is the proposed Brazilian high speed railways in which RENFE appeared as heavy favourites to get the job. Important detail: In order for a company to be able to take part in the bidding process for the construction of the new high speed Brazilian railways there should be no accident due to systems failure ending up in lives lost for the past five years in the company’s history.

Remember to always follow the money. We are talking about huge interests here, with more than 500 km of high speed railroad plans.

I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of sabotage. Sounds more than possible to my ears. It makes perfect sense for the whole thing to be manipulated by the Spanish government now to be presented as an accident, rather than risking that Brazilian multibillion deal.

However I don’t see a connection with Rajoy’s theme.

I also read something about some EU legislation on trains being discussed and is to be passed at a point in 2013. I need to make more research on that one.

Any folks in Spain with insight on the para-government structure within the country? I mean, all political parties are controlled and manipulative tools to the global oligarchies. If anybody from Spain, or wherever has any info of the situation there please share. I feel it would be truly helpful.

And about the accident itself. The driver says he is going too fast and he can’t stop it. How difficult would it be for someone manually or remotely to lock the speed control of the train? Electronic systems are always easily breached if someone really wants to do it, and either way if there was indeed sabotage the black-ops taking in charge of these operations are top-trained and could easily take care of something like that.

Question: Is the facebook profile allegedly owned by the driver indeed his?

I keep listening about no signs of terrorist attack. Of course is not a terrorist attack. Remember that ‘terrorism’ is a creation of the oligarchies for political pressure of different kinds and always the media sell what they are being fed.

This time around the media are mysteriously silent about even the remote possibility of a sabotage. However it is their usual method to keep these kinds of operations hidden from the public.

So EU legislation about trains-train safety, Brazilian railroads and antagonistic companies, Spanish political life and agendas are some main themes to be explored I believe. And finally, almost forgot, anybody has any idea if any ‘important’ people of any kind were on that train? I just can’t get out of my mind the true story of the titanic. For those you know about it you know what I mean and where I take it on the ‘important passengers’ theme. These people have a tendency to join different evil plans executed as one. Just felt was worth stating.

Moreover Rajoy's descent is that specific region of Spain.

Also quoting from here: au.finance.yahoo.com...


''The horrific train crash in Spain that killed 78 people comes at the worst time for the recession-hit nation's railway sector, which is pushing to win new markets for its high-speed trains.

Spain is in the running for a contract worth $16.4 billion (12.7 billion euros) for a high-speed rail network in Brazil linking the cities of Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo and Campinas which will be awarded in September.

The country, which two years ago won a contract to build and operate a high-speed rail link in Saudi Arabia, is also eyeing new markets in the United States, Russia, Kazakhstan and the United Arab Emirates.

"Technologically Spain is a pioneer in high-speed rail," Alejandro Lago, a logistics professor at the Iese business school in Barcelona, told AFP.

Since the 1960s, the country has had trains made by its Talgo train maker that could circulate at speeds of up to 200 kilometres (125 miles) an hour, he added.

Spain has invested heavily in road and rail links over the past decade and it now has the second-largest high-speed train network in the world, spanning 3,100 kilometres. Only China's is larger.

The investigation is trying to find out why the train was going so fast and why security devices to keep speed within permitted limits did not slow the train.

Spanish state railway company Renfe said the train -- a model able to adapt between high-speed and normal tracks -- had no technical problems and had just passed an inspection on the morning of the accident.
The crash -- Spain's deadliest rail disaster in decades -- is a huge blow for the country's bid for the deal in Brazil.
Brazil's bidding process for the country's lucrative infrastructure project specifies that firms in the run cannot have had an accident that caused deaths in their high-speed rail network in the last five years, El Pais reported.
That would appear to disqualify Renfe, according to the newspaper.

The rule -- which applies only if an accident is due to "operational causes" -- has already disqualified China's Communications Company Limited from the running due to an accident in June 2011 that killed 33 people.
The private and public Spanish companies that make up the consortium in the running for the contract have been reluctant to speak publicly about the impact of the accident on their bid.

But several unnamed sources close to the consortium, which includes Renfe and Spanish rail network administrator Adif, told Spanish business daily El Economista that they felt the contract was "lost".

This would be a major setback for Spain, which has been hoping to bank on its recent deal with Saudi Arabia to obtain similar projects.

"It's important because we're talking about high-speed rail and we want to show that we are world leaders in this area," Spanish secretary of state for transport, Rafael Catala, said in an interview with AFP earlier this month.
In 2011, a Spanish consortium won a 6.7-billion-euro contract to build and operate a 450-kilometre (280-mile) high-speed rail link in the desert between the holy cities of Mecca and Medina.

Spain's first big foreign rail contract was signed with Turkey. A Spanish consortium built the high-speed rail link between Ankara and Istanbul which was inaugurated in 2009.

"During an economic downturn, the railway sector tries to compensate with activity abroad, with exports," said Pedro Fortea, the head of Spanish railway company association Mafex, which helps promote 73 firms abroad.
"Spain has experience which is transferable to other countries," he added.''

Must be something related to Spain's endebtment situation and some 'cycles' wanting to sideline them for good.

And yes there is EU background as well.

www.europarl.europa.eu...

20-02-2013

The European Commission is proposing to open domestic rail passenger markets to competition by 2019 to complete the European railway market. Views differ amongst transport committee MEPs, with fears that unprofitable lines will be closed down.


The transport commissioner, Siim Kallas, presented the Fourth Railway Package to the transport and tourism committee on Tuesday. The six draft laws are intended to complete the "Single European Railway Area" by harmonising technical provisions and giving all operators access to national rail networks.

Financing: MEPs slam member states' hypocrisy

"We have all wanted more efficient railways for years but the member states are failing to transpose certain rules. As for the funding, I have serious doubts, given the new multi-annual budget framework," said Mathieu Grosch (EPP, BE).

Vilja Savisaar (ALDE, ET) wondered: "What incentive is the Commission providing in order to stimulate investment in infrastructure?" while Ramon Tramosa (ALDE, ES) called for more European money to fund the transeuropean core network. Faced with budget cuts, "I wonder what our true ambition is," said Karim Zéribi (Greens/EFA, FR), if it's not liberalisation at any price.

Public service and railway staff

"Combining freedom of access to the market with public service contracts risks creating 'cherry picking', that is concentrating services on profitable lines," warned Said El Khadraoui (S&D, BE), "but for passengers, the only thing that counts is a reliable service, even on less heavily-used lines." Ayala Sender (S&D, ES) pointed to the "major challenge of finding an acceptable solution for railway workers."

Next steps

The discussions in Parliament will continue once the rapporteurs are appointed, with a public hearing to be held in May or June. The member states will debate the Commission's proposal on 11 March.


www.europeanrailwayreview.com...

The European rail infrastructure CEOs discuss about the rail sector’s future

Publication date: 12 June 2013
Author: Community of European Railway and Infrastructure Companies (CER)

Today in Zurich, chief executives from rail infrastructure companies discussed issues of key strategic and political importance to the European railway sector. In particular, the CEOs recognised that the work of the rail infrastructure managers is at the heart of enhancing the rail network in Europe, striving for better services to the benefit of rail transport customers and tax payers. Therefore, they pledge to reinforce this cooperation in the future.

Jointly organised by the Community of European Railways and Infrastructure Companies (CER) and the association of European Rail Infrastructure Managers (EIM), the annual meetings between the heads of rail infrastructure companies provide a platform for exchanging information and experiences between rail infrastructure companies, real opportunity for sharing good practice, benchmarking opportunities and lead to joint projects and initiatives

At today’s meeting, the CEOs agreed that a stronger dialogue and cooperation between European rail infrastructure companies is necessary in order to meet better the demands of the future. Therefore, they decided to set up a joint task force to identify opportunities for further enhancing the effectiveness and efficiency of Europe’s rail infrastructure over time.

The main aim of this approach would be to help all rail infrastructure managers to achieve the necessary improvements in an accelerated way. Amongst the examples for concrete cooperation are cross corridor coordination, longer and heavier trains for making best possible use of the available track capacity, intermodality projects and benchmarking on key performance indicators, such as punctuality as well as also ERTMS deployment.

CER Executive Director Libor Lochman stated: “The annual meetings of rail infrastructure CEOs demonstrate that European topics are on the top of their agendas, and are gaining in importance. These meetings are essential for exchanging views of best practice and allow us to find common solutions for the benefit of the customers.“

EIM Executive Director Monika Heiming stated: “Today’s meeting was very fruitful for the railway sector: EU rail infrastructure leaders agreed to start working together on a broader range of issues which will be beneficial for corridor and network deployment in the interest of our customers.”

The 2014 meeting of the rail infrastructure CEOs will be hosted by Trafikverket in Sweden.