What if Jesus is the DECEPTION?

You bring up good points in the OP.

I believe that the deception is in FOLLOWING Jesus instead of trying to BE LIKE him, I've heard Jesus never wanted people to make a religion out of him (Christianity) he only wanted to show people the true way to life together. I never thought of Jesus being separated from God or the spirit, he always talked about god as father, I think God was more apparent and alive in Jesus, god can be apparent in everyone of us like it was in Jesus, you only need to want it. I also believe Jesus' teachings are some of the least corrupted words in the bible.

I'm only trying to answer the questions you brought up, in the op, so it might sound jumpy. To close, Jesus never wanted a 'religion' on himself, he was only a teacher, I do not see many 'preachers' today as teachers like Jesus was.

reply to post by SimonPeter

In the first place the Talmud/ Mishnah /Oral law existed in it's many forms before Christ in one form or another . The Talmud is the manifestation of Oral Law is it not .

I don't know if such a thing existed as such, meaning what we see today as the Talmud. There would have been an oral tradition within the priesthood, in ancient times concerning the details of how rites were performed. There would have also been legends and lore as stories told about the exploits of national heros. Those things show up in the written word that we call the Old Testament. The Talmud is something else where the experts in the law would make decisions about how they apply to real-world circumstances, and it probably began when those experts were deported from the land of Canaan, to Babylon, and they had no temple. The same old methodology got a further impetus with the destruction of Herod's temple, and was at that time written down, to preserve them, since they could not find a clear consensus to leave in a single tradition, and felt the need to record the dissenting views also.

The synagogue of Satan referred to the sinful Pharisees who were not of the lineage of Aaron as they were supposed to be .They were not up to standards and Jesus knew it

I have no idea where you got that from unless it is from your cult that has Jewish teachers in it to subvert the member's belief in Christianity.

Your free grace cult argument is your calling card

The Free Grace cult is a fact and you can look it up in Wikipedia and see how the theory was developed over time and got its final version in the 1890's.

Again John 15 tells you all about being grafted into the vine and your not bringing forth fruit

Were you going to make a point with that bit of knowledge?

The Covenant with the Jews involve sacrifice for sin

Would you care to quote any of the pertinent text?
Let's take a look at the story in the Old Testament of King David, how he basically murdered Uriah to get his wife for himself. He felt awful about it when their subsequent child was dying, and felt that his sin was responsible. Why didn't he then just make a sacrifice and fix it? Because there was no such provision in the law for that.

The 10 commandments define sin . The Law is a Jewish recompense for having sinned . Which could really never be kept completely.

You are again only reciting your cult's propaganda. The Law demanded obedience, period, and if you read the story, people who broke it met a nasty end.
The Law was meant to be kept and was the conditions of the covenant. The giving of the Law was not for the purpose of punishing humanity for the people in the past who had sinned. Paul said that his life as a Pharisee was "blameless", meaning that he did keep the law. The problem with the law was that it really didn't make you a better person by keeping it, but it gave you a social status that would be actually counterproductive as far as your eternal soul goes.

Jesus died for our sins . John 3:16 .

God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son
(2011 NIV)
God made a personal sacrifice, to hand over His son to the forces of evil in order to judge Satan.

reply to post by SimonPeter

I suppose you remember Cain and Able and the two sacrifices or offerings to God for thanksgiving for prosperity . God favored the sacrifice of the lamb with out blemish and did not favor the veggies Cain offered . God decided he favored blood sacrifices

I remember that the Old Testament version does not go like that. Your cult has added the parts that you are emphasizing. It does not say that God prefered blood sacrifices. If you read the Greek version, it says that Able gave his best, while Cain did not, giving the stuff that he did not really want himself.

Jesus was not taken and killed . He gave his life freely and his blood was spilled for all man kind . Some instead spit on his gesture of Grace and Mercy and others receive it with thankfulness

Some people turn it into a business transaction where Jesus' blood is a form of spiritual money that people can use to "pay for" sins with.

I have been quietly reading all of your posts, and I appreciate the insight you have all brought to this thread. I have been checking some of the links and others that I have found, and continue to work to reconcile the idea of Jesus with the experiences that I have had.

In reading the words of Jesus, I still can't help but get a feeling of underlying deception. For a man to be as important as Jesus is portrayed in the Bible, why do we know so little about him? If it is claimed that he "did not sin", why has his life story been left out? If we are to follow his example and words, wouldn't it be more beneficial to know everything we can about him? And it makes me question why so many don't seem to care that so much of his life story is missing..... I mean, in todays world, people seem to need to know when/what/& who with, every move a celebrity makes; so why do we not question the missing parts of Jesus' life?

How do we explain the similarities that are found across so many other religions? And if Jesus is to hold that #1 spot in our lives, why do no other religions mention him or his importance? If we are all to expect a second coming, and have been warned not to be deceived by false prophets, how then are we to know the real one, or what the real truth is?

I wonder how TPTB could take the words of Jesus and use them against us? My mistrust does not lie with Jesus alone, but with how someone can take something or someone that is fully believed in and trusted and used to mislead them.

reply to post by Jusvistn

And if Jesus is to hold that #1 spot in our lives, why do no other religions mention him or his importance?

It is significant that those "other" religions no longer exist.

If we are all to expect a second coming, and have been warned not to be deceived by false prophets, how then are we to know the real one, or what the real truth is?

I think that this "second coming" was a later invention, where certain second century Christian writers could not get over the Jewish belief that there was going to be this great Day of the Lord where the "nations" were going to be judged for not believing in the Old Testament god.
The reality was that the OT "god" was judged by the real God, the father of Jesus, when the Jerusalem temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
The "false prophets" were the Jewish rebels who brought down the retaliation by the Romans. Reading Josephus' book, The Wars of the Jews would be helpful in understanding who those false christs were.

reply to post by Jusvistn


I think you may be onto something here. If we go back to Abraham for a minute, we find a man who was prepared to kill his own son because 'God' demanded it of him to prove his faith in said 'god'. To me, this doesn't sound like a god who is the least bit benevolant and loving.
If this is the same god that was Jesus' father then it would appear that Jesus advocates the same behaviour as Abraham. Are they then loyal to a cruel blood thirsty being who has convinced them he is the one true god? Was Jesus in league with Satan!?. Just asking. I believe God resides within all of us so would never have to manifest in the physical realm to contact anyone. What god would demand that we bow down to and slavishly worship him. God only wants us to join him through learning how to emulate him. Is this world the work of God? Surely not. Look around. Switch on your tv. Looks more like it was crated by a crazy sadistic troublemaker to me. Can you think of one?
Can't remember who said this but he was very wise and lived a long time ago.
"The biggest trick the devil played on man was not convincing us that he didn't exist, but convincing us that he is god"

When Jesus was born did his mother/parents tell him that he was the Son of God and was destined for great things or did he read about a prophecy that was to come in the synagogues he attended and took it upon himself to fulfill that prophecy and become the Son of God?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Are you sure you didn't convert to Judaism or more likely Islam ?

reply to post by SimonPeter

Are you sure you didn't convert to Judaism or more likely Islam ?

That's part of being in a cult, that you are convinced by the cult leader that what you are being given to believe in is what makes you a "real" Christian. All the while, you are blinded to the fact that the majority of Christians, the normal Christians, believe in none of it.
You need to get outside your cult's mind bubble and talk to non-cult members to get a reality check.
You believe in a modern theological invention, not in what the Bible really says.

reply to post by Jusvistn

And it makes me question why so many don't seem to care that so much of his life story is missing.....

If everything were known how could there be a judgement?

How do we explain the similarities that are found across so many other religions?

There really isn't a whole lot of similarity across religions. It just seems like it, in the post Christian World in which we live.

And if Jesus is to hold that #1 spot in our lives, why do no other religions mention him or his importance?

Almost all modern post Christian religions mention Jesus in some capacity or other. Commonly, as a wise man, frequently as an Ascended Master, or other such greater than the average human sort of character.

Jesus as #1 seems reserved for certain Christian sects. Most modern religions don't disparage him. A few religions do. Then the question arises "Why disparage a man you don't even know existed? And if you do believe he existed, then what about him, according to the sparse material available, do you find most objectionable?"

I think you already mentioned your objection to him apparently claiming to be "the only way". If you think that is false then you probably aren't a Christian. But then there are people who have wide open definitions for Christian that wouldn't even consider that as a disqualifying matter. That's why some people shun all labels.

Aligning personal religion and public religion isn't always a straight forward undertaking. That's where outside manipulations become a concern, as you say, " I wonder how TPTB could take the words of Jesus and use them against us?" The how is by instilling guilt and mistrust of your own interpretations and instilling also a fear of or even actual ostracism. Not nice things that people do to other people.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Funny thing is that nobody agrees with your interpretations . Even the atheist don't agree with you and correct your theories to what the bible says even though they don't subscribe to it .

reply to post by SimonPeter

You are just repeating what you already said in an earlier post.
You know, if you think that my interpretation is wrong, you could try to argue against it by using the Bible.
There isn't exactly a wide base of normal Christians making any comments one way or another.
There are the two, you and Deetermined, who are both in cults, so you all don't count.
I think that there is a strong push in cults that you don't see in normal churches, to go out and spread your propaganda about israel and the rapture and armageddon and that sort of thing, so that on a forum like this you get an overrepresentation of cultists and very few if any of the more ordinary sort of church goer.
My suggestion to you would be to crack open a Bible and see what it actually says, rather than going from one proof-text to another as instructed by your leader.

reply to post by jmdewey60

That's part of being in a cult, that you are convinced by the cult leader that what you are being given to believe in is what makes you a "real" Christian. All the while, you are blinded to the fact that the majority of Christians, the normal Christians, believe in none of it.
You need to get outside your cult's mind bubble and talk to non-cult members to get a reality check.
You believe in a modern theological invention, not in what the Bible really says.

What part of the Bible, the original word of "God", encourages you to edit the Bible in your interpretations? Add or remove anything and you are committing a grave sin, is that not correct?

This is another thing that confuses me. So many people claim the Bible is the pure and complete word of "God", and yet everyone feels so comfortable just omitting or adding interpretive context because it makes more sense to them that way. They just ignore the fact that as soon as they have made those adjustments in their mind, it stops being the word of "God" and starts being nothing more than their take on it. That doesn't make it any more accurate or real. It just makes you more comfortable with the bullcrap you're swallowing by the bucket.

reply to post by jmdewey60


What I see is the Globalist / Zionist Jews who authored the Protocols of Zion trying to destroy Christianity from the children up to the adults .
There are very few Christians wanting to post with the so called sophisticated /atheist bunch badgering them .
As for debating with you and your thoughts on bible interpretations , I don't argue with fence post ,or the like .

reply to post by SimonPeter


Suck it up, baby. We're here to deny ignorance whether you like it or not.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


How can the ignorant ignore ignorance . How do they know what to ignore .

reply to post by SimonPeter


How are we ignorant, pray tell? And you do realize that applies to yourself as well...?

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

God knows we fear death and it would be a better incentive to not sin than donate a veggie for your sin . Even though you were supposed to sacrifice your best lamb the Jews started selling sacrificial lambs and such at the alter that probably was not with out blemish and had no attachment to . The Jewish sacrifices became an abomination to God and they went right back to their sin . This is why God gave the Gospel of Jesus to the Gentile to serve him .

Who profited ultimately by the sacrifices, those that held the reins of the temple; Pharasee Priests/and handmaidens, the Sadducce, you dont think they buried these animals, or burned them? they processed them and fed them back to the public. Sacrifice was encouraged for this profit potencial. Underneath these temples/alters was a blood gathering system, a sophisticated butcher shop ajacient, hidden well within/underneath not only processing meat but the skins as well. This was a very lucrative boutique industry. God was supposed to ingrain us with everlasting (soul) life/eternity, it failed in this mission ON PURPOSE. These sacrifices were never an abomination to God, it supported its own selfish aspect. Did you not know that this God was a Jealous God, why? because the human was beginning to outstep itself in ingenuity and resourcefulness. It was beginning to loose control of its creation. Jesus was introduced to rienforce the sacrifice AGAIN on such a grand scale as not to be believed (a human sacrifice) and some bought it as 'dieing for OUR sins'--once again past, present and future sins? so I can commit murder with impunity because I am forgiven already by an unsuspecting VICTIM Jesus? I wonder if that was Hitlers mindset when he was in extermination mode. Probably came to the same reasoning/conclusion as was cleansed of all present sins by Jesus. Thats a tremendous amount of negative karma, unrealistic and frankly ridiculous. You see the trap set for even the most innocent to commit evil, instantly be absolved of it and feel fine about the consequences because Jesus gave the Monopoly $200.00 dollar get out of Jail card FREE to anyone that bought into this "I died for your sins' ideology. Its perfect in a way, the debt is collected on the other side; and you have no idea what it entails as to the progression backwards of your soul.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


No doubt if I gave every human on this earth a 1000 dollar bill yours would be wrong . You would throw it down because it just couldn't be real, at least not for you .

reply to post by AfterInfinity

That doesn't make it any more accurate or real.

It does, if you put it into the right context, which takes some work, to understand it the way it was written.
Like you said, creating a fake context to make it look like it backs up something that you already decided to believe, in order to make you feel "better", is making it non-authoritative.