The REALLY big questions: Why?

God created humanity to be with Him forever one day

reply to post by colbe


Okay. So, why not now? We are stupid humans. We will STILL be stupid when we die. Have you ever tried to have an intelligent conversation with a two-year-old? It would be just like that if you believe this god to be all-knowing and we are the two-year-olds.

reply to post by colbe

None of your list was in the original plan, Satan, then Adam changed the the plan.

Satan and Adam changed the almighty, all-knowing GOD'S plan. The plan that this perfect god already imagined, planned, and set in motion. Dude, that's insane.

reply to post by colbe

...Realize then, o men, that for all eternity I have had but one desire, to make Myself known to men and be loved by them.

Okay. Being almighty god he can appear to all men any time he wants. There's no need for this game he's playing of hide and seek. Either he wants to be with us or he doesn't. Or, he doesn't exist.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by colbe

 

None of your list was in the original plan, Satan, then Adam changed the the plan.

Satan and Adam changed the almighty, all-knowing GOD'S plan. The plan that this perfect god already imagined, planned, and set in motion. Dude, that's insane.

edit on 6/9/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

God is perfect, we aren't, come on jigger, come up with another protest. A rebelling teenage would say the same. I really appreciate your reply though...


colbe

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by colbe

 

...Realize then, o men, that for all eternity I have had but one desire, to make Myself known to men and be loved by them.

Okay. Being almighty god he can appear to all men any time he wants. There's no need for this game he's playing of hide and seek. Either he wants to be with us or he doesn't. Or, he doesn't exist.

edit on 6/9/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

God is so much "light', could we take it? He gives us signs of His presence and the fact is...

He is with us. There is one God in Three divine persons. Like the message says, He came in the person
of His son, Jesus Christ. Our Lord is with us today, most especially in the Holy Eucharist. How humble
of God, who made all, to come to you this way.

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by colbe

 

None of your list was in the original plan, Satan, then Adam changed the the plan.

Satan and Adam changed the almighty, all-knowing GOD'S plan. The plan that this perfect god already imagined, planned, and set in motion. Dude, that's insane.

edit on 6/9/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

God is perfect, we aren't, come on jigger, come up with another protest. A rebelling teenage would say the same. I really appreciate your reply though...


colbe

That makes no sense. A rebelling teenager with no further answers would try to change the subject and focus on the person instead of the subject. Sorry, Colbe, but that's what you are doing. Hope you can see that you have no answer, but are desperately trying to deny it. You can't believe in a perfect god with a perfect plan and then have Him change his mind. You can't believe it, and you can't defend it.

I want to point something out to you. You believe the god story is true. I believe it is false. Yet both, expert theologians and writers of fiction would tell you the following:

You can have an imperfect god with an imperfect plan.
You can have an imperfect god stumble onto a perfect plan.
You can have a perfect god with a perfect plan, because a perfect god would have EVERY variable accounted for before he put his plan into motion.

But you cannot EVER have a perfect god with an imperfect plan that he has to tweak from time to time! Even in the realm of fiction this is impossible. It's like having a NON-fantasy love story where magic puppets suddenly pop in and save the day. It doesn't work. A perfect god with an imperfect plan doesn't work.

God is so much "light', could we take it? He gives us signs of His presence and the fact is... He is with us. There is one God in Three divine persons. Like the message says, He came in the person of His son, Jesus Christ. Our Lord is with us today, most especially in the Holy Eucharist. How humble of God, who made all, to come to you this way.

reply to post by colbe


Come on, Colbe. Do I really have to say that the all-powerful god that you believe in, the god that created Jesus in the living flesh couldn't himself become flesh to be with us if he wanted to?

reply to post by jiggerj


You can't say anything created the universe because the universe not only creates but also destroys. So God is a Creator and Destroyer. Why else would large stars explode when they die? This is devastating in any galaxy.

But to accomplish evolution on earth is a miracle, so much of a miracle that the general population still does not know how we got here, so people still think that angels could have come down and placed life here. Over 4 billion years and now we have us - consciousness. That is an accomplishment, it is a design, it is far beyond what we can think.

We were taught that it always was. Yet we see that things were incredible different 13 billion years ago.

So the big bang could have been something to do with a large black hole, if not a large black hole then something to do with what is inside or the makeup of one, because we still do not know exactly if there are worm holes and such.

Originally posted by greyer
reply to post by jiggerj

 

You can't say anything created the universe because the universe not only creates but also destroys. So God is a Creator and Destroyer. Why else would large stars explode when they die? This is devastating in any galaxy.

But to accomplish evolution on earth is a miracle, so much of a miracle that the general population still does not know how we got here, so people still think that angels could have come down and placed life here. Over 4 billion years and now we have us - consciousness. That is an accomplishment, it is a design, it is far beyond what we can think.

We were taught that it always was. Yet we see that things were incredible different 13 billion years ago.

So the big bang could have been something to do with a large black hole, if not a large black hole then something to do with what is inside or the makeup of one, because we still do not know exactly if there are worm holes and such.

This was a bit hard to fathom, but thanks for your input anyway. I'm going to assume you are saying that the first living cell had to have an intelligent designer. That only a designer could create complex designs such as the human body. More to the point, that you think complex designs can't be created by nature. Here's a short video showing AMAZING designs without any intelligent designer behind it.

Reading psalms today I was reading psalm 8 and thought it worthy of being posted in this thread, so here it is:


Psalm 8

King James Version (KJV)


8 O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

reply to post by greyer


Now compare the image made without intelligent design at 3:23 of the clip to a human egg in the zygote stage. Not an exact match, but it's stunningly close!

Originally posted by jiggerj

This was a bit hard to fathom, but thanks for your input anyway.

I'm going to assume you are saying that the first living cell had to have an intelligent designer. That only a designer could create complex designs such as the human body. More to the point, that you think complex designs can't be created by nature.

The theory is that evolution and the God are both correct. If you put up the numbers - 4.5 billion and 13.78 billion - you can see that earth must have been an ancient part of our ancient galaxy. So it is not long, yet far too long. I do not think there were angels that came down and handed down man upon earth, but evolution and God are both true, so over millions of years things evolve almost magically, given 100s of millions of years we have a perfect 'design.'

reply to post by jiggerj


More like saying a UFO sighting is a flock of birds

Originally posted by jiggerj

God created humanity to be with Him forever one day

reply to post by colbe

 

Okay. So, why not now? We are stupid humans. We will STILL be stupid when we die. Have you ever tried to have an intelligent conversation with a two-year-old? It would be just like that if you believe this god to be all-knowing and we are the two-year-olds.

jigger,

Do not think I wish to always argue with you and disagree. I do like some of the things you say. Like the above.

It seems that way now. There are a couple of references in Scripture, I have to look them up, one of them,
Peter says we will be "like" God, we will understand better, gain the preternatural gifts, At the Final Judgment
have glorified bodies.

reply to post by colbe

jigger, Do not think I wish to always argue with you and disagree. I do like some of the things you say. Like the above. It seems that way now. There are a couple of references in Scripture, I have to look them up, one of them, Peter says we will be "like" God, we will understand better, gain the preternatural gifts, At the Final Judgment have glorified bodies.

Argue, debate, disagree.... These are good things, my friend. I wouldn't bother coming here if everyone agreed with me.

Peter says... God says... Jesus says... The bible says...

What does YOUR mind say? Surely, you must raise an eyebrow at some of this biblical stuff. If we would be granted greater wisdom and understanding at the final judgement, then what the heck is THIS life all about?

Here is what most religious blindly accept: Using your limited human mind you must overcome a lifetime of obstacles, and THEN you will receive greater understanding (AFTER you no longer need and not WHEN you need it in this life). What's the point? It makes no sense when you could just skip this life and be given all that knowledge.

Originally posted by greyer
reply to post by jiggerj

 

More like saying a UFO sighting is a flock of birds

That would be true if we were looking for similarities, such as the fact that both have to be aerodynamically sound.

In the image of the resonant shape and the zygote, the possible similarity is that both well-structured designs could have been created without an intelligent designer. Or rather, if one was created without an intelligent designer, why not the other?

reply to post by jiggerj


I do like where you are going. I think surely quantum physics can reveal the existence of God.

Down to the lowest level, the smallest particle which I believe is a quark, we should have proof.

To my knowledge an atom and a quark is a tiny microscopic particle that is nothing more than an energy field with traits to it that we have labeled.

So when you think of the whole earth and that fact that it is all microscopic energy. Then you put together the physics of a black hole and see that particles of matter break down into some kind of infinite current at some speed which could be a worm hole or something leading to the center of God, or the creation of the universe. We just know there was hot plasma and gas then when it started expanding black holes were forming simultaneously with galaxies immediately, but there still could be something behind the gas and clouds, not to an infinite point as a black hole but maybe even a universe before the big bang.

So that would make sense, that you have the creation of earth in matter or energy particles and that not only is there conscious on earth but the actual energy is conscious and omnipresent. So the actual energy of creation is God and is conscious.

For the first time in 400 years, sensible people are saying some very dangerous things. Theologians are discussing the origins of the physical universe, the beauty of the fundamental laws of physics and the wonder of the complexity of nature. Scientists, too, are discussing what they suggest may be a sense of purpose behind the universe and questioning why those laws of nature should be exactly the way they are and why they give rise to those wondrous complexities.

Quantum systems create waves or particles with inherent uncertainty. There are situations where a single atomic process can produce, for example, two photons of light with opposite polarisations. Under quantum theory they remain part of the same mathematical equation and in an indeterminate state until the polarisation of one of the photons is observed. But the moment one photon is observed, the polarisation of the other becomes fixed. There has been no communication between the two, yet, by observing one, we are influencing the atomic process which produced both. If that process holds true within a laboratory then it must also hold true across the scale of the universe.

www.independent.co.uk...

reply to post by greyer


I think "god" is a very loose term for what they might find in their search. "God" implies a consciousness, whereas I suspect the truth is more along the lines of a random code generator, where an infinite number of attempts will yield an infinite number of random codes dictating a reality that may or may not survive under the laws it is arbitrarily assigned as a result of the process. And due to our relative ignorance, we have no idea whether this particular universe is a success, or just a long-lived failure...or even just a tiny, vague blip on the vast radar of the multiverse.

I've described the universe previously as something like a novel written in a language specifically designed for quantum translation. In other words, the universe we see is a chemical translation of a language that transcends our current understanding, and this universe happened to turn out somewhat coherent. The language originates from a lexicon that determines the functions and interactivity of the nuclear and electromagnetic forces that drive our known reality, and this lexicon is determined through the random code generator mentioned above.

Let's call it the "random code generator" theory. There is only one way a watch will work, and there is only one set of forces that can support existence in and of itself. The rest is a mishmash of explosions and sputtering fireworks. An automated cycle of trial and error whose principles are compounded endlessly in a fractal nature. Further speculation could suggest that "ascension" could be the process of our evolution transcending this "language" and formatting itself to the next "translation". It's definitely something to consider.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by greyer

 

Now compare the image made without intelligent design at 3:23 of the clip to a human egg in the zygote stage. Not an exact match, but it's stunningly close!

Beautiful. . Why do this remind me of sacred geometry?

The search for answers to "what is" is both a scientific and spiritual journey. And question any dogma (religion or scientific), even your own ideas of "what is", if you find proof that they are untrue. In the bible god say do not create any idols but as long as you do not know everything you view of "what is" is an idol.

It is a very funny joke having a viewpoint (Christianety) that is not the whole truth (an therefore an idol) that tells you to not have idols. The existing one makes the funniest jokes and life on this planet is full of them.

reply to post by LittleByLittle


Most religions offer a very limited application of concepts they have a very limited understanding of. It irks me that people think they need a god to appreciate the poetry of the universe. This is so completely untrue...such a shame that so many will never be able to acknowledge themselves as their own masters even as they marvel at the beauty of the night sky or the physics of the subatomic realm. There's this prayer:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

Some may know it as the prayer of St. Francis. I have my own take on it - "Higher self, grant me the understanding to accept the things I cannot change, the confidence to change the things I can, and the journey to learn the difference."

I believe that we must learn to rely on ourselves before we can rely on anyone else, because we have all been in that place where we had no one but ourselves to help us. And we've all been in that place where we didn't know how to help ourselves because we never learned. Teach a man to fish, you know? Independence. Spiritual independence means that we learn to pull strength from ourselves, wisdom from ourselves, learn to develop ourselves instead of developing dependence. Let go of the crutch and spread your wings.

I really do believe this, and I really think we could learn something about ourselves if we were to seriously attempt such an approach. We might even learn that we don't need a god. See, the worst mistake was entering into a relationship where we're the ones who need it more. This is why we are told not to do drugs. You get to a certain point where you couldn't stop even if you wanted to, because you have convinced yourself that you are nothing without it, that you are dead without it. That leaves us vulnerable to all sorts of manipulation.

And guess what happened? Now it's time to stop taking our meaning in life from a silver platter and start crafting it for ourselves. No more factory model destiny. It's time to put on the work gloves and prove that we are worthy of choosing our own fate. What's the point of having free will if you're not allowed to make the most important choice of all?

I choose not to have a god. I choose not to worship anyone. I choose not to limit myself. I choose to hold close every legend and mythos equally, taking the best from each and surpassing it in my own special way. And I recommend all of you do the same. What's the point of living if it isn't your journey? Make it your own. Be your own. That's what life is all about.