Concept of God in Islam

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Your logic that people made God that way because people had those attributes doesn't really work.

Yes, it works.
PEOPLE have tried to explain what God is without really knowing what/if he/she/it exists. It's all HUMAN PROJECTION.
The bottom line is, Skorp, that WE DON'T REALLY KNOW.

reply to post by wildtimes

They don't? Then why do they give attributes to God that are particular to PEOPLE? Like judging, revenge, punishment, destruction, or forgiveness, mercy, justice?

you think these attributes evolved in humans by evolution or something?
How can a mother logically show that amazing selfless love to a literal parasite that almost kills her while being born?
Allah is more merciful to a human than a mother to her infant.

you
cannot in any way truly understand the pure love and unconditional
acceptance a parent has for their child
until you LIVE IT.

and when one child begins to hurt/kill every other child, will you give the victim and the sinner a hug each and accept both equally?

And I actually DON'T see any reason
for a "revealed" God or scripture. It's
all man-made. All of it. Someone's
imagination, nothing more.

have you read the Qur'an? I wish that you do, at least to know your views on it.

reply to post by logical7

you think these attributes evolved in humans by evolution or something?

Yes, I do.

As I said in the other thread, read these three books, and you will understand what I think.

I suggest you read about it yourself.
The Moral Animal - Why We are the Way We Are: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology,

and Nonzero: The Evolution of Human Destiny,

and The Evolution of God ,

all by Robert Wright
They are all BRILLIANT and entertaining - and explain it much better and more thoroughly than I can.

reply to post by wildtimes

My children know that I gave birth to them - how could they tell me to my face that I did not? There is rampant evidence that I did, and sorry, but that's a very strange analogy to make.

let me refine that analogy.
What if you had a baby but got separated and then meet him when he is adult and you give him proof that you are his mother and you just want him to call him "mom" once and he knows its true but thinks if he acknowledge it, he would have to take care of you etc and so denies it.
Now isn't that a lie and a big injustice to you?
What if now you were able to do absolute justice, then you also have to do justice to yourself.

There is no bigger injustice than to have a Creator and deny Him knowingly because it will imply a change in the way of life etc

reply to post by logical7

What if you had a baby but got separated and then meet him when he is adult and you give him proof that you are his mother and you just want him to call him "mom" once and he knows its true but thinks if he acknowledge it, he would have to take care of you etc and so denies it.
Now isn't that a lie and a big injustice to you?

What?
Sorry, that's not logical or sensible. Some kids who grow up knowing they were raised by OTHER THAN their biological mother see the person who raised them - who was there for them, nurtured, fed, clothed, sheltered, cared for them - as their "mother."

I don't see how the child then has to feel "obliged" to 'take care of' his biological mother. Depends on the reasons they were "separated."
Perhaps in a culture that expects adult children to "care for" their biological "parents" who were absent, it makes sense. But in my culture, the person who took the trouble to raise you is the one you might feel obliged to look after when they are no longer capable of caring for themselves.

Again, your analogy is about selfishness. "I'm your 'mom', so you have to take care of me!" What?!! No.

reply to post by wildtimes

I'm aware that it is wishful thinking, and is derived from a feeling of "powerlessness" to stop the evil and pain that I see in the world.

how can evolution commit suicide by causing humans to come into existence who have cognitive dissonance unless they find comfort in some kind of belief that provides justice?
Was that pre-planned?
Monkeys eat baby monkeys and kill each other, they don't worry about karma.

reply to post by logical7

how can evolution commit suicide by causing humans to come into existence who have cognitive dissonance unless they find comfort in some kind of belief that provides justice?

Some humans are sociopaths who would kill and eat others. That has nothing to do with God.
Cognitive dissonance is another thing entirely.

Sociopaths can't be "Cured". They can MAYBE stop themselves from wrongdoing if they believe they might go to hell.
But FEAR of going to hell is not THE ONLY REASON not to "kill people" - I think you are placing WAY too much emphasis on the power of "religion" to stop evil deeds.

Explain to me the suicide bombers. Mostly young people. Doing what they do...for what? Their belief in "reward". Talk about "cognitive dissonance"!!!
It's utterly insane and depraved.
True "grace" means wanting what is best for the other, ALIVE beloved, without ANY expectation of reward for doing so.

reply to post by wildtimes

Again, your analogy is about selfishness. "I'm your 'mom', so you have to take care of me!" What?!! No.

its not you who want it, its him who assumes you want it.
(i just asked, is or is it not injustice by him to not acknowledge you as "mom". Hope you answer)

Thats exactly what you assume, that you have to be subservient to some dictator like God or something.
You really thing God needs your acknowledgement?

Its due to believing that you know everything and so don't need expert advice.

reply to post by logical7

its not you who want it, its him who assumes you want it.
(i just asked, is or is it not injustice by him to not acknowledge you as "mom". Hope you answer)

He shouldn't ASSUME. You know, we say to ASSUME makes an ass out of u and me....

No, it's not an injustice. I would have to build a relationship with him before I could "expect" any kind of 'care' for me. And "expecting" someone to do something is not just.

Thats exactly what you assume, that you have to be subservient to some dictator like God or something.

That is what YOU are saying!! I am NOT saying that I!!

reply to post by logical7

You really thing God needs your acknowledgement?

Its due to believing that you know everything and so don't need expert advice.

This ^^^ is entirely unfair, and directly in opposition to what you said earlier, that "God created people with the sole purpose of worshipping him".

You have repeatedly stated that God DOES need and expect your acknowledgment in order to avoid being "sent to hell."
And I DON'T believe I 'know everything'. I'm really disappointed that you would say that to me after all these hours of effort to have a discussion with you. Are you even really paying attention to what I've said, and continue to say?

Wow, log7. I think maybe we've reached an impasse here beyond which we will not be able to go. I hope not, but I'm feeling like you are actually NOT interested in thinking about these things....or in actually "understanding" the non-Muslim point of view.
That makes me feel sad.

reply to post by wildtimes

Explain to me the suicide bombers. Mostly young people. Doing what they do...for what? Their belief in "reward"

suicide bombers don't have cognitive dissonance!
They don't do it for reward, they do it for fighting against injustice, the reward just makes it easier. Although its very wrong but people who do it are themselves suffering from PTSD or other kinds of mental trauma. Try living under terror for decades and watch half your family being killed and then you may understand, i am not justifying it. Just wanting you to know why suicide bombers are born because it feels that the west thinks its a muslim hobby or something.

The idea of being a martyr is very valid. I could be a martyr if i had to fight and defend my house and loved ones from an attacking group. Do you think i'l do it for "reward." there is a reward, its there to break the attachment to the world when it comes to matters of justice to the extremes of life and death situations.
A muslim who believes strongly in God will not back down for the fear of injury or death.

reply to post by logical7

The idea of being a martyr is very valid.

No. It's stupid.

Yes, of course, I would lay down my life for my mother, my kids, my husband. But I don't expect to be "rewarded" for it - I would do it because I love them above myself.

And it would have NOTHING to do with God.

Kids who are brought up in these terrorized and violent households ARE traumatized. THAT is the problem!! I believe the REASONS for the suicide bombers' thinking needs to be eradicated. Stopped. Stop the wars, stop the senseless killing, and you stop the kids from wanting to become "martyrs" by killing OTHER PEOPLE!

reply to post by wildtimes

You have repeatedly stated that God DOES need and expect your acknowledgment in order to avoid being "sent to hell."

No i never used 'NEED'
what i have is a whole understanding of God in Islam, when i say a part, you may have to integrade them without jugding at least till all parts have been put in place.

And I DON'T believe I 'know
everything'. I'm really disappointed that you would say that to me after all
these hours of effort to have a
discussion with you. Are you even
really paying attention to what I've
said, and continue to say? Wow, log7. I think maybe we've
reached an impasse here beyond
which we will not be able to go. I hope
not, but I'm feeling like you are
actually NOT interested in thinking
about these things....or in actually "understanding" the non-Muslim point
of view.
That makes me feel sad.

i know you wildtimes! I made a comment to the way you made up the sentences, dint actually believe it. I am sorry if i made you feel sad.

reply to post by logical7

You have repeatedly stated that God DOES need and expect your acknowledgment in order to avoid being "sent to hell."

Read it again. You have said that God expects acknowledgment and worship TO AVOID BEING SENT TO HELL or PUNISHED.

I did read your response to me (sorry I missed it before), and I fully appreciate this part that you said to jigger:

if you think worship means
singing his praises all day or just
praying 5 times a day then its a very
shallow idea of worship.
The idea of Worship in Islam is being
the best possible person. Realising our potentials and working to make them
real. Being a good son/daughter, a
good sibling, a good spouse, a good
father/mother and expecting the
reward for it from Allah not from the
people we interacted. They may or may not acknowledge our goodness
or show gratitude but it does not
matter as it was done as a worship to
Allah.

The idea among all good people is to be the best possible person they can be!!
See the underlined part above.

You are "expecting" a reward, just like you say God is "expecting" worship. EXPECTATIONS lead to disappointment.
If you DON'T EXPECT things, you won't be disappointed.

reply to post by logical7

i know you wildtimes! I made a comment to the way you made up the sentences, dint actually believe it. I am sorry if i made you feel sad.

Thank you. Sometimes it feels like you keep repeating questions to me that I have already answered.
If you have a problem with how I make up sentences, then please let me know. You have seemed to consistently tell me when you don't understand, and I have consistently tried to make myself more clear.

I WANT for you to understand me. Please don't put words in my mouth that weren't there. If you never said "need", I likewise apologize for putting that on you when it wasn't what you intended.

reply to post by wildtimes

No. It's stupid. Yes, of course, I would lay down my life for my mother, my kids, my husband. But I don't expect to be "rewarded" for it - I would do it because I love them above myself. And it would have NOTHING to do with God.

its not stupid, i would love to be a martyr (partly i am saying it just to annoy you but i do mean it)
i don't want to kill anyone or die, but like a quote i heard, if i am going to die once, let me enjoy it.

Its not about actual dying, its about the courage that comes to stop wrongs and stand up for justice.

Kids who are brought up in these
households ARE traumatized. THAT is
the problem!!

ya, especially when they know the next bomb may fall on their house. Or army men can break in any time and arrest anyone that is grown up enough just for interrogation.

The problem is very localised and you cannot blame it on religion. Its a reaction not an action.

reply to post by logical7

its not stupid, i would love to be a martyr (partly i am saying it just to annoy you but i do mean it)

Okay......
But what can you really do when you're dead? NOTHING. Zip. Nada.

i don't want to kill anyone or die, but like a quote i heard, if i am going to die once, let me enjoy it.

Its not about actual dying, its about the courage that comes to stop wrongs and stand up for justice.

I have plenty of courage to actively speak out against wrongs and stand up for justice!

I don't expect to "enjoy" dying...and I'm certainly NOT going to hasten it for some "reward" that may or may not be "true."

But yeah, you got me annoyed. Well done, I guess???.

reply to post by logical7

The problem is very localised and you cannot blame it on religion. Its a reaction not an action.

YES!
That!

And what we need to do, as a global community, is to STOP the actions that cause such violent REACTIONS.

REACTING is a secondary state of mind. ACTING is an immediate state of mind. PREVENTIVE action is what is needed, a real understanding of WHY someone would become a suicide bomber or a martyr.

People want to survive.
I use this analogy:
We can stand at the side of the rushing river rapids and pull people out of it, dry them off, pat them on the head, give them a sandwich and a blanket and send them on their way. (Tertiary intervention)
OR,
we can find out who's throwing them OFF THE BRIDGE into the rapids in the first place, and STOP THEM from doing that! (Secondary intervention)
OR
We can keep people OFF THE BRIDGE entirely. (Primary intervention)

Eliminate THE BRIDGE, and we've solved the problem. Do you see?
The term is PROACTIVE. As opposed to ACTIVE, or REACTIVE.

reply to post by wildtimes

You have said that God expects acknowledgment and worship TO AVOID BEING SENT TO HELL or PUNISHED.

the punishment comes from justice and not because God is selfish or cruel. God does not need it but not doing it is injustice to God. He is Absolutely Just and right now He is just Patient.
You see wildtimes when you think on Absolute Justice then it becomes clear.
It is balant injustice to know the Creator and then deny, to know a revealation must be from God and then deny it.
The ones who qualify for hell are those who are lying to themselves. Knowing a truth and then fooling oneself into covering it up is a great sin.

The idea among all good people is to
be the best possible person they can
be!!
See the underlined part above. You are "expecting" a reward, just like
you say God is "expecting" worship.
EXPECTATIONS lead to disappointment.
If you DON'T EXPECT things, you won't
be disappointed.

yes expectations from 'people' leads to disappointment and thats the reason in Islam we expect from God, much less diappointment in this worldly life and even if there is no reward, we lived a much peaceful life. Its simply delaying gratification.

God does not expect worship, He wants us to acknowledge Him so that He does not have to punish us when exercising Absolute Justice. If His warnings are anything, they are extreme mercy.

An analogy can be, say a cop has orders to shoot anyone who resists arrest and he locates a young guy and he says, "son, don't resist or i'l have to shoot you"
did to cop say it because he is cruel or merciful?

reply to post by logical7

to know a revealation must be from God and then deny it.

But....but....
you DON'T "know" that!!!! You have NO WAY of "knowing" if something someone else says is a 'revelation from God'!!

You are assuming that because Mohammed said it, it was a revelation. There's no proof! There's only speculation and belief and ASSUMING.

Okay, so today I'm seeing a lot of "assuming" going on in your thinking. I believe that is a mistake, and shows that you are repeating what you were "taught". Maybe I'm wrong, though, about the repeating part.

Sorry, but