Concept of God in Islam

I think the translate into english from ibadati to worship that make the meaning become more shallow. Worship can sounds like a fans idolized their idol. Ibadat in wide range mean do as we should or in easy way like work as it should. Is it like when you make a printer, and what you want is the printer to print. To print for a printer is a worship to you as its creator. Like that doesnt mean you are egomaniac.

reply to post by maung


Take the god part out for a second and let's see if it changes how mankind acts today. Without a god we would fall in love, make babies, work, grow old and die. Good people would adhere to the laws of their society, and help the needy. Bad people would do bad things. Heroes would save the day. Artists would dance, sing, paint, write... People would cry out when an injustice is done. The rich would richer and the poor would get poorer...

So, where is the god in all of this? The only difference is that the belief in a god has caused the believers to justify oppressing women, stifling science, preventing people from using condoms and birth control, spreading hatred between religions...all things bad.

reply to post by jiggerj

It's not about having the right to be worshiped, it's about having that sole purpose in mind when creating living things. That is what the writings imply. Islam's God: I am going to create things to worship me. That's sick.

Human mentality : I am going to father a child, who will acknowledge me alone as his father. Is that sick too?

Or are you okay with your child calling somebody else his daddy? Are you okay with your child failing to acknowledge you as his dad, despite being raised by you, in your own home.

When a man recognizes God as his maker, he will worship God naturally.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by jiggerj

 

It's not about having the right to be worshiped, it's about having that sole purpose in mind when creating living things. That is what the writings imply. Islam's God: I am going to create things to worship me. That's sick.

Human mentality : I am going to father a child, who will acknowledge me alone as his father. Is that sick too?

Or are you okay with your child calling somebody else his daddy? Are you okay with your child failing to acknowledge you as his dad, despite being raised by you, in your own home.

When a man recognizes God as his maker, he will worship God naturally.

My daughter is 37. She does not have to worry about what I think or feel. She is a separate human being and I will love her no matter what she does. When children grow up they are free to do as they please, and parents are no longer responsible for them. Imagine how upsetting it would be for children to know that their parents would ALWAYS be watching them, would ALWAYS be setting down rules for them. Teenagers would totally freak out! lol

Now, take it a step further and what does a god have to say along these lines: Don't worry, I am always there every second of every day of your entire life. I listen to your every thought. I am there when you pick your nose, when you have sex, when you take a crap - I am always there. And I won't stop being there even after you die. I am your parent throughout all of eternity!

Really, honestly, and truly NO THANK YOU.

reply to post by BlueMule

Possibly. Although, I think your concept of worship might be a bit narrow. If you were inspired to start a "cult" of Mickey Mouse, then due to the inspiration your "cult" would bear the same skeletal structure as any other mythology or religion. Therefore it would be amenable to analysis by the comparative fields, and analysis would reveal the formless hand of God behind the culturally and temporally bound poetic forms.

you are confusing spirituality and God. Spirituality can be attached to anything, sun, earth, even self(buddhism)
Yes, whatever happens is God's will but it does not mean everything that humans do is right including starting a cult of mickey mouse.

Because if what you say is true, there wouldn't be a need of any revealed religions and books.

Originally posted by jiggerj

I think the translate into english from ibadati to worship that make the meaning become more shallow. Worship can sounds like a fans idolized their idol. Ibadat in wide range mean do as we should or in easy way like work as it should. Is it like when you make a printer, and what you want is the printer to print. To print for a printer is a worship to you as its creator. Like that doesnt mean you are egomaniac.

reply to post by maung

 

Take the god part out for a second and let's see if it changes how mankind acts today. Without a god we would fall in love, make babies, work, grow old and die. Good people would adhere to the laws of their society, and help the needy. Bad people would do bad things. Heroes would save the day. Artists would dance, sing, paint, write... People would cry out when an injustice is done. The rich would richer and the poor would get poorer...

So, where is the god in all of this? The only difference is that the belief in a god has caused the believers to justify oppressing women, stifling science, preventing people from using condoms and birth control, spreading hatred between religions...all things bad.

edit on 4/21/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

As an atheist you supposed to be more specific in scientific way. If you talk about one side, a bad side if you want to say about people who believe in religion, you should calculated the good side what people who believe god did because of their believe before you can make a judgement.

And before that you have to know how many religion on earth, and catagorised it to make it easier. Learn all essence of teaching of all of them, and compare them to the people who practiced it. Then you can have your valid conclusion that religion is bad or people who believe god is bad.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Possibly. Although, I think your concept of worship might be a bit narrow. If you were inspired to start a "cult" of Mickey Mouse, then due to the inspiration your "cult" would bear the same skeletal structure as any other mythology or religion. Therefore it would be amenable to analysis by the comparative fields, and analysis would reveal the formless hand of God behind the culturally and temporally bound poetic forms.

you are confusing spirituality and God. Spirituality can be attached to anything, sun, earth, even self(buddhism)
Yes, whatever happens is God's will but it does not mean everything that humans do is right including starting a cult of mickey mouse.

Because if what you say is true, there wouldn't be a need of any revealed religions and books.

You and I probably don't agree about what spirituality is, or what God is. We probably don't agree about what inspiration is, or the self, or what is right and what is wrong. Or what Mickey Mouse really means.

"The mouse is one of Satan's soldiers and is steered by him." -Sheikh Muhammad Munajid

Do you agree with this statement by Munajid?

But the point I'm trying to make is that the concept of God in Islam is too exoteric... too far removed from mystical concepts of God. Only mystics have the experience to see through the veil... the veil which both conceals and reveals.

I think Rumi and most mystics would not share the way that most Muslims conceive of God. As a mystic I understand why.

"When the school and the mosque and the minaret
get torn down, then the dervishes
can begin their community." -Rumi

"Poetically speaking, gnostic thought recognizes that religious expressions function as symbols and, as such, are simultaneously true and false, that they both reveal and conceal. Reductionism and revelation lie down together here in a (post)modern form of...

...what the Sufi tradition understood as...

...the paradox of the veil (hijab), that is, the psychological and linguistic necessity of cultural forms that reveal the divine light (which is in itself beyond all representation) precisely by concealing it behind veiled symbols and signs."

-Jeffrey J. Kripal

reply to post by BlueMule

"The mouse is one of Satan's soldiers and is steered by him." -Sheikh Muhammad Munajid Do you agree with this statement by Munajid?

in essence yes, mouse/rat is a vermin that damages property and if you see the nature of mouse/rat, it damages more than what it needs to eat and prophet Muhammad pbuh adviced to put off lamps at night because a mouse/rat may steal the wick and end up setting the house on fire.

But the point I'm trying to make is that
the concept of God in Islam is too
exoteric... too far removed from
mystical concepts of God. Only mystics
have the experience to see through
the veil... the veil which both conceals and reveals.

Qur'an is 2/3rd about spirituality and God and 1/3rd law.
The requirement is to achieve that balance, nobody is above law, not even mystics.
A balance to be a productive member of society, a hùsband, a father, a son and also be spiritual not just to be fed by others and tear clothes in divine ecstasy!

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by BlueMule

 

"The mouse is one of Satan's soldiers and is steered by him." -Sheikh Muhammad Munajid Do you agree with this statement by Munajid?

in essence yes, mouse/rat is a vermin that damages property and if you see the nature of mouse/rat, it damages more than what it needs to eat and prophet Muhammad pbuh adviced to put off lamps at night because a mouse/rat may steal the wick and end up setting the house on fire.

It's one thing to want to prevent or minimize damage. It's another thing to demonize an animal.

If there is anything "satanic" about mice, it's because people unconsciously project their shadow-self onto animals and even other people.

People like Munajid do half the work of creating a 'Mickey Mouse cult' with ignorant talk like that.

Qur'an is 2/3rd about spirituality and God and 1/3rd law.
The requirement is to achieve that balance, nobody is above law, not even mystics.
A balance to be a productive member of society, a hùsband, a father, a son and also be spiritual not just to be fed by others and tear clothes in divine ecstasy!

It's not about being above the law. It's about the difference between knowing God through experience and knowing God through a book and through the social mechanisms which surround that book.

With books there is always a gap for incorrect interpretations which lead to incorrect conceptions.

Mystics have an easier time jumping over that gap because of their experience of God.

reply to post by BlueMule


we have again reached a point beyond which things will just get repeated. Islam is not exoteric, it has an exoteric component which some sufis deny to follow and i dont agree to that, i am a fan of Imam Al Ghazali. Maybe u should read him too. Then we may discuss more. Thanks for contributing your views and having a good debate

reply to post by maung

If you talk about one side, a bad side if you want to say about people who believe in religion, you should calculated the good side what people who believe god did because of their believe before you can make a judgement.

Okay, Maung, I'll talk about the good that can only come from believing in a god. You ready? There is no good that can only come from believing in a god. Please try to think of something good that only believers can do that atheists CAN'T do?

Are you thinking that believers in a god help the needy? Well, I'm an atheist and I have helped the needy throughout my entire life. Even in my limited capacity today I still give what I can. My secular government uses our taxes to provide Social Security and Medicaid to the elderly. And, Social Security Disability for those that are unable to work.

So, it's not that believers help the needy because they believe in a god; it's that good people do good things and would continue to do so even if they found undeniable proof that no gods exist.

Now, think of the bad things a believer can do that an atheist CAN'T do?

Right! An atheist simply cannot kill, torture, oppress or dominate people in the name of a god.

reply to post by jiggerj

Now, think of the bad things a believer can do that an atheist CAN'T do? Right! An atheist simply cannot kill, torture, oppress or dominate people in the name of a god.

seriously? Atheist just don't need to do it in name of God, they do it in the name of national security, national interest, corporate profits etc.
Do you think the hunger and extreme poverty globally is an outcome of religion?
Its the super rich and the powerful who do it as they believe that there is no god and they would never be answerable for their deeds.

Carrying just a label/name of christian or muslim is not enough. How can a christian order drones to kill innocent women and children? He/she is not a believer, he/she is an atheist. Because if they had really believed that there is an all seeing, all powerful God who is going to do absolute justice they would have shivered just after having the thought of dropping dirty bombs on innocents!!!

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by maung

 

If you talk about one side, a bad side if you want to say about people who believe in religion, you should calculated the good side what people who believe god did because of their believe before you can make a judgement.

Okay, Maung, I'll talk about the good that can only come from believing in a god. You ready? There is no good that can only come from believing in a god. Please try to think of something good that only believers can do that atheists CAN'T do?

Are you thinking that believers in a god help the needy? Well, I'm an atheist and I have helped the needy throughout my entire life. Even in my limited capacity today I still give what I can. My secular government uses our taxes to provide Social Security and Medicaid to the elderly. And, Social Security Disability for those that are unable to work.

So, it's not that believers help the needy because they believe in a god; it's that good people do good things and would continue to do so even if they found undeniable proof that no gods exist.

Now, think of the bad things a believer can do that an atheist CAN'T do?

Right! An atheist simply cannot kill, torture, oppress or dominate people in the name of a god.

If you think your research is already done perfectly so you can have this conclusion, it is fine by me. You do whatever you want and think however you want. Like you said you help people, and i am glad that you are a good person.

reply to post by logical7

Muslims believe that He
created humankind with a simple
purpose – to worship Him.

Hi, log7.
Sorry it took me awhile to get here.
I read the OP; this quoted above does not make sense to me.

I can't believe for one moment that our only "simple purpose [is] to worship him". That is slavery, subjugation, and tyranny.

While I respect that you are willing to hear other points of view, and are actively seeking more information, I can't in any way see this quote above as 'truth'. And if it is, I want nothing to do with it.

God gave us all the ability to THINK and ACT. The world is going downhill fast. God has done nothing tangible to step in and correct it. It seems to me irresponsible to say that 'worshipping God' is our only simple purpose, when so many are dying of starvation, illness, oppression, and neglect.

reply to post by MrSpiderMonkey


In my opinion, the Baha'i faith is the truest of the Abrahamic faiths and their 'offspring'.
I agree, people should explore it.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Now, think of the bad things a believer can do that an atheist CAN'T do? Right! An atheist simply cannot kill, torture, oppress or dominate people in the name of a god.

seriously? Atheist just don't need to do it in name of God, they do it in the name of national security, national interest, corporate profits etc.
Do you think the hunger and extreme poverty globally is an outcome of religion?
Its the super rich and the powerful who do it as they believe that there is no god and they would never be answerable for their deeds.

Carrying just a label/name of christian or muslim is not enough. How can a christian order drones to kill innocent women and children? He/she is not a believer, he/she is an atheist. Because if they had really believed that there is an all seeing, all powerful God who is going to do absolute justice they would have shivered just after having the thought of dropping dirty bombs on innocents!!!

That's not the point. Point is, good deeds don't come from religion, good deeds are done by good people. But only the religious can kill in the name of a god. Atheists can kill and murder in the name of justice, greed, insanity..., but an atheist simply cannot kill in the name of a god.

I'll try to make it clearer: The religious can't do a good deed and say, "HA! No atheist can do that!" The only act that is exclusive to religion is killing in the name of a god.

Originally posted by maung

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by maung

 

If you talk about one side, a bad side if you want to say about people who believe in religion, you should calculated the good side what people who believe god did because of their believe before you can make a judgement.

Okay, Maung, I'll talk about the good that can only come from believing in a god. You ready? There is no good that can only come from believing in a god. Please try to think of something good that only believers can do that atheists CAN'T do?

Are you thinking that believers in a god help the needy? Well, I'm an atheist and I have helped the needy throughout my entire life. Even in my limited capacity today I still give what I can. My secular government uses our taxes to provide Social Security and Medicaid to the elderly. And, Social Security Disability for those that are unable to work.

So, it's not that believers help the needy because they believe in a god; it's that good people do good things and would continue to do so even if they found undeniable proof that no gods exist.

Now, think of the bad things a believer can do that an atheist CAN'T do?

Right! An atheist simply cannot kill, torture, oppress or dominate people in the name of a god.

If you think your research is already done perfectly so you can have this conclusion, it is fine by me. You do whatever you want and think however you want. Like you said you help people, and i am glad that you are a good person.

I'll take your comment to mean that you have no counter argument to my statement. That's okay, hopefully after some time you will see the logic in it.

reply to post by wildtimes

Hi, log7. Sorry it took me awhile to get here.

Good that you joined

I can't believe for one moment that
our only "simple purpose [is] to
worship him". That is slavery,
subjugation, and tyranny.

While I respect that you are willing to hear other points of view, and are actively seeking more information, I can't in any way see this quote above as 'truth'. And if it is, I want nothing to do with it.

The problem is difference of understanding the word 'worship'

here's my reply to Jiggerj about the same.

if you think worship means
singing his praises all day or just
praying 5 times a day then its a very
shallow idea of worship.
The idea of Worship in Islam is being
the best possible person. Realising our potentials and working to make them
real. Being a good son/daughter, a
good sibling, a good spouse, a good
father/mother and expecting the
reward for it from Allah not from the
people we interacted. They may or may not acknowledge our goodness
or show gratitude but it does not
matter as it was done as a worship to
Allah.

Also, Maung put it nicely,

I think the translate into english from
ibadati to worship that make the
meaning become more shallow.
Worship can sounds like a fans
idolized their idol. Ibadat in wide
range mean do as we should or in easy way like work as it should.
Is it like when you make a printer, and
what you want is the printer to print.
To print for a printer is a worship to
you as its creator.

Ibadat/Ibadah is every good action. If i keep a bowl of water for birds, its Ibadah(worship). If i smile to my wife making her smile back or ignore a mistake by her, its ibadah.

God gave us all the ability to THINK
and ACT. The world is going downhill
fast. God has done nothing tangible to
step in and correct it. It seems to me
irresponsible to say that 'worshipping
God' is our only simple purpose, when so many are dying of starvation,
illness, oppression, and neglect.

we discussed about humans being 'stewards' and that does not limit to taking care of environment and animals. If God has made humans as representatives(for a specific term) to maintain/restore a proper order and humans are failing, its not God's fault.
Taking action to eradicate hunger/malnutrition, to resist/fight and overthrow oppression is worship/Ibadah in Islam.
(Every muslim that is fighting may not necessarily be a terrorist, he maybe presented as one by the oppressors to their own people and the gullible majority just believes it.)

reply to post by jiggerj

The religious can't do a good deed and say, "HA! No atheist can do that!"

ok, i acknowledge your point.

The only act that is exclusive to religion is killing in the name of a god.

i have a question for you on this, is only killing in the name of God unacceptable for you and not any killing?
About 3000 innocents died in 9/11, lets assume it was done in the name of God. How many innocents died in the 'war on terror'? 2.5 million and counting..
24,000 people die everyday in the world due to hunger because of greed of people. Greedy people are atheistic in action even if they are theist by title.
So yes atheists can do good but right now the amount of death, destruction and starvation that atheists have caused and are causing.. is just disgusting, actually i have no word to express the intensity.
So Jiggerj do you agree that right now atheistic actions are the major problems for humanity?

Originally posted by logical7

ok, i acknowledge your point.

So Jiggerj do you agree that right now atheistic actions are the major problems for humanity?

I would need some examples on these atheistic actions. I'm not sure anything can be done in the name of atheism. Humans commit crimes because they're bad humans, not BECAUSE they are atheists. Or rather, atheists don't commit crimes against humanity because there ISN'T a god.

i have a question for you on this, is only killing in the name of God unacceptable for you and not any killing?

I am not stating here that I find it unacceptable. Just stating the fact that atheists cannot kill in the name of a god. Now, since there is no god, my opinion is that all killing is unacceptable, be it for a god or not. There's no better or worse in this.

reply to post by jiggerj

Humans commit crimes
because they're bad humans, not
BECAUSE they are atheists.

Humans commit crimes
because they're bad humans, not
BECAUSE they are (a)theists.

Humans commit crimes more when they are either not concerned or feel safe from its consequences.
The people in power who wage wars, commit genocides and manipulate economies to drain off the wealth of the masses and smirk at their genius plans are atheists as they wouldn't do it if they really believed that they will be answerable to any god.

Allah forbade interest in the most severe words even church forbade it before secularism took over and yet interest banking is the dominant way.
It just causes movement of wealth in one direction and the rich banks even have protection from government and you have to pay even if you starve.
Do you think oppression can be done only by martial law? Economic oppression is invisible yet far more destructive.

Being an atheist doesn't just mean not to believe in god.
The worst is to believe there is God yet behave contrary to it.

There are more atheists in the world than you think Jigger majority call themselves christians, muslims etc

Sorry for pushing the bad guys in your camp
thats not my intention, i just want to clear that bad guys do bad things what their labels are is not important.

A pedophile priest may not act on his disgusting desire if he knows someone is watching. What will you call if he does it despite knowing 'God is watching.'

If you allow i may call him atheist by action. Do you agree?