A question about the Law

reply to post by jmdewey60


I personally don't think Jesus' words needed to be said in a different way, his words were cleat on their own.

I also disagree that Jesus is reigning over the Earth right now. Unless Jesus is the greedy and lying type, there is no way he has reign over Earth.

What's this new fascination lately with the law of Moses?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I disagree. If salvation through faith in Jesus' death has always existed, they would have said something about it in the OT. I am a bit ignorant to the OT, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

How were the OT prophets admitted into heaven if the Law didn't save?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I disagree. If salvation through faith in Jesus' death has always existed, they would have said something about it in the OT. I am a bit ignorant to the OT, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

How were the OT prophets admitted into heaven if the Law didn't save?

Faith being counted for righteousness. The same as it was before the law. The same as it it today.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So they had faith in Jesus' resurrection a thousand years before it happened? Tell me how that works.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I personally don't think Jesus' words needed to be said in a different way, his words were clear on their own.

Jesus was speaking in a different age and different circumstances. People could have changed by accepting his interpretation of the law, without his having to do away with the law, at least not in any dramatic sort of way.
He was saying that if you understood it properly, the law could guide you, meaning Israel, into salvation, they had the tools to do it.
The point of the Gospel story is that they didn't take him up on the offer and killed him. They had their chance and they became the foolish virgins from his parable where even with their lamps full of oil, they were locked out, to suffer agony in the dark.
Paul was speaking after all that happened, and more, such as the preaching by Peter and others, to the Jews, to tell them that they had made a mistake by rejecting Jesus.
By the time Paul was writing the Book of Romans, there had already been a crises and it ended in open fighting in the streets to emphasize that very rejection that they refused to be remorseful for.
So Paul, at this point was not going to tell people that you can follow the law, as Jesus had proposed, because his adversaries had created a whole new controversy over that point, but had distorted it beyond recovery.
So Paul had to resort to creating a new term in order to avoid appearing as if he was lending support to the enemies of Christ.
That term was "Faith" but meant the same thing that Jesus was talking about.

I also disagree that Jesus is reigning over the Earth right now. Unless Jesus is the greedy and lying type, there is no way he has reign over Earth.

There is another technical term in Revelation describing the new age, and it has to do with a type of destruction as part of war that was a kind of religious belief, which was genocide of your vanquished foe.
In the new age, that is not to be practiced. Do you see that happening now as the rules of warfare?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Could you quote a verse where Jesus says that? Paul's letters don't count as Jesus' word.

They are NOT Paul's letters.

They are Jesus' WORD...

God takes His word VERY seriously.

Below is the end result for those who reject the Word of God:

Jesus explained, “Sesame! In order for someone to be saved, they must believe and receive me sincerely deep into their hearts, but most importantly it is crucial to have a sincere heart and mind. Many who have received me end up in hell, because during the prayer of confession they simply recited the prayer without sincerity!”

Jesus also said, “Many profess they have accepted and proclaimed me into their hearts, and with their mouths believe that they are saved, since they’ve believed in me for a long time, but, it is not the length of time that determines your salvation. It is the process of bearing fruits in your character that leads you closer to attaining salvation.

Many believe blindly the incorrect teaching that simply reciting with their mouths will guarantee their salvation -- and are under an illusion that they will go to heaven. Salvation should be realized through fear and trembling and each individual must grow in sincere faith.” Jesus is heartbroken and frustrated that so many souls end up in hell because they believed erroneously.

Baptize by Blazing Fire

Christians in Hell

The two angels escorted me to Hell. I then saw many pastors, elders, and deacons in Hell. I asked the angel, “I know them. They had served God faithfully while on the Earth. They had died some time ago. We all had thought they were in Heaven with God. But now, I see them all in Hell and they are crying out that it is so hot! Why are they here?” There were so many pastors, elders, deacons and all other lay believers.

The angel answered, “Pastor Park Yong Gyu, a person can appear to be a true follower of Christ on the outside but God knows the heart.

There are multitudes of churches on the Earth and many of the churches are filled with many people. However, most of them are not true Christians. They are but church attendants. The true churches will firmly believe in Heaven and a Hell. The lives of many Christians are in chaos because they do not firmly believe in Heaven and Hell. When one soul enters Heaven, one thousand cursed souls enter Hell. The rate of Heaven and Hell is 1 to 1000.” (Matt 7:14)

Heaven & Hell 1000 to 1

Bishop Wilfred Lai is the founder and senior Pastor of Jesus Celebration Center in Mombasa, Kenya and it is a church of over 15,000 members. One day he asked the Lord how many of them were ready for heaven and the Lord told him only 200. Only 1% of that church is going to heaven! Dr. Lai said that some pastors have created large groups of sinners meeting in the name of God. “What you have are not churches, but large congregations of sinners.”

Message from Pastor Wilfred Lai

On August 3, 1979, Howard Pittman, a Baptist minister for 35 years, died while on the operating table during surgery and had a near-death experience.

Instead of allowing me to enter, the angel stationed me before the Gates, slightly to one side. He instructed me to stay there and watch as the saints were permitted to enter into Heaven. This point was so important that the Holy Spirit told me Himself. I watched the fifty saints enter Heaven, but the point I missed was the time frame involved.

It was explained to me that at the same time those fifty saints died on Earth, 1,950 other humans also died; or only 50 out of 2000 made it into Heaven. That other 1,950 were not there. Where were they? That was only 2 ½ percent going to Heaven! Ninety seven point five percent did not make it! Is that representative of the entire world today? If so, 97 ½ percent of the population of this world today is not ready to meet God.

Placebo by Howard Pittman

reply to post by Murgatroid


They aren't Paul's letters? Tell that to any scholar and they'd probably laugh in your face. The letters themselves vouch that Paul wrote them.

You'd think Jesus would have taught some of the concepts that Paul did while alive, but apparently he didn't feel worthy to teach them.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So they had faith in Jesus' resurrection a thousand years before it happened? Tell me how that works.

They knew a Messiah was coming and looked forward to Him. They had the same faith as we do today looking back to Him. Rabbis teach the prophecy was first given to Adam in the garden. We have the benefit post-Christ to know the nitty-gritty details.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I disagree. If salvation through faith in Jesus' death has always existed, they would have said something about it in the OT. I am a bit ignorant to the OT, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

How were the OT prophets admitted into heaven if the Law didn't save?

All OT saints died and went to Paradise. Just as the thief on the cross did. Didn't Jesus tell him that today he would be with him in paradise? After Jesus died, He went to paradise to preach the good news to them and faith in Jesus is what brought them to heaven.

Also, Jesus is the central theme in every single book of the OT. So the salvation message is there in evry single book- one just needs to search it out to find it.

Again, the beliefs of Gnostics and Grace based Christians are fundamentally opposed, this will not be solved on a conspiracy forum. Essentially, it all boils down to faith- just as in the atheist- theist debating that is constantly going on.

reply to post by micmerci


I thought Jesus went to hell after he died on the cross? Or do you reject that idea?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Why didn't they ever mention having faith in his resurrection then? If they knew that was an integral part of being saved, then why not mention it? Seems to me like Moses did the people a disservice by never mentioning that part, don't you think?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

They had the same faith as we do today looking back to Him.

No they didn't.
Paul was talking about Abraham, who believed this voice telling him to move out of Ur of the Chaldees.
Abraham responded appropriately by getting up and moving his family to wherever this 'voice of god' was going to show him.
So Paul was talking about another kind of faith, which was obedience to God, outside of the written Law which did not exist then, and was not to exist until Moses wrote it.
So Paul is saying it is possible to be considered righteous without having to abide by the Law of Moses.
Paul was not saying that you could be considered righteous by God while not following the 'law of faith'.

So, this theory of yours that the people in far antiquity believed in Jesus long before he was ever born is not supported by the Bible in general, or Paul in particular.
They obviously believed in something else, as evidenced by their rejection of Jesus when he did come along.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


You don't see to think that the writings of Paul reflect the Holy Spirit. What is your issue of Paul. Was he not a sinner like the rest of us who became redeamed? Do you not believe in justification and sanctification? Maybe it is putting legalism before the grace of God. Perhapes that is why this verse would be rejected outright.

(Romans 3:28 NIV) For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

If you disagree with the reliability of Paul, then you must disagree with Peter as well.

(2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV) Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. [16] He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

reply to post by Siberbat


When did Jesus ever say that someone was justified (saved) by faith apart from the law? Jesus said nothing would pass from the law until all had been accomplished. We're still here waiting on his return, meaning everything has not been accomplished yet, which means nothing has passed from the law.

Peter taught the same message as Paul, that of salvation through Jesus' death, so of course I disagree with him.

reply to post by micmerci

Also, Jesus is the central theme in every single book of the OT. So the salvation message is there in evry single book- one just needs to search it out to find it.

That was in Malachi, predicting the coming of Adonai.
That is virtually claiming that God was coming Himself.
The other places that may be construed as predicting Jesus as savior is really more of a complaint against God for not carrying through with His promises of providing a king to make Israel great again.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
They aren't Paul's letters? Tell that to any scholar and they'd probably laugh in your face. The letters themselves vouch that Paul wrote them.

So if you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God WHY do you even read it?

If it isn't the Word of God what reason would ANYONE have to read it?

reply to post by Siberbat

Perhapes that is why this verse would be rejected outright.

(Romans 3:28 NIV) For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Paul qualifies "Faith" in this whole argument that Abraham fulfilled the requirements of God as he understood them.
You are completely misunderstanding Paul if you believe he meant a mere intellectual assent to the historical fact that Jesus died on a cross.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


1 Peter 3:18-For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This is where I get that Jesus descended into paradise after His death. It is my understanding that Hades had two compartments- Paradise and Torment which were separated by a chasm. The story of Lazarus and the rich man gives us insight to this. Lazarus went to paradise and the rich man went to Torment. Jesus preached to the spirits in prison to release them through His final sacrifice of death on the cross.

I subscribe to Jesus also entering the Torment side of Paradise to proclaim His victory.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Why didn't they ever mention having faith in his resurrection then? If they knew that was an integral part of being saved, then why not mention it? Seems to me like Moses did the people a disservice by never mentioning that part, don't you think?

They didn't know the minute details as we do today. That was explained iny "nitty-gritty details" portion of my reply.