Why will people argue Creation vs. Evolution when it is possible to have both?

I have noticed and participated in many many Creation vs. Evolution topics and I ask myself why is it that people cannot understand there is a possibility that BOTH exist.

As I have stated before...There is no conflict in ones belief in a GOD and the reality of Evolution.

It is possible that a GOD used the process of Biological Evolution to create the wide variety of Life Forms upon the Earth as well as all probable Life Bearing Planets in our Universe.

It is also possible a GOD used the process of Quantum Evolution...the Quantum Particle/Wave Form driven process by which Matter will continually arrange itself by means of various Universal Mechanisms into Elements and then Molecules of Greater and Greater complexity...as example Stars such as our Sun Fuses Hydrogen into the Heavier and more complex Atom...Helium.

Thus Quantum Evolution is responsible for DNA....an EXTREMELY COMPLEX MOLECULE...of which both LIFE and Non-Living Forms have Evolved. As example...a Single Celled Organism was Quantum Evolved by the creation of DNA added to other Matter and Conditions and thus...GENESIS. The same process also developed the Non-Living DNA Molecular Form known as a VIRUS. A Virus IS NOT ALIVE...yet it has DNA and shows how Quantum Evolution created a form with DNA that is but just a small step below LIFE.

Biological Evolution has been PROVEN 100% as a FACT as when the entire mapped Human Genome was compared with Thousands of various other Species Genomes all were found to have Ancient Viral DNA encoding that was the same and thus the ONLY WAY all species could ahve the exact same Viral DNA encoding is if all EVOLVED from the Original Single Celled Organism which was infected by this Virus and then passed down to all species this Viral DNA encoding.

With all this in mind...and the Science and Proof of the reality of Biological Evolution being BEYOND REPROACH....as even the VATICAN and Pope John Paul II announced to the faithful of the world that Science had proven the reality of Evolution...why do so many people fight this reality tooth and nail?

Well...the reality and probability shows us that it is possible that a GOD used the two Evolutionary Processes to create the Universe...perhaps Multiverse...and ALL LIFE EXISTING IN THEM. This statement has a basis in LOGIC and cannot be proved wrong. But when I see the amount of time and effort that some waste in a MUCH TOO LATE and ILLOGICAL FIGHT to prove EVOLUTION as false...it makes me sad for those who's faith is so precarious that to admit to themselves a REALITY of the Natural Universe and perhaps Multiverse will somehow diminish that Faith...I must tell them that belief in a GOD and belief that a GOD created the Universe and perhaps Multiverse and all Life within....by that GOD using the two EVOLUTIONARY PROCESSES...IS CREATION!

Split Infinity

I would also like to note that although I respect the beliefs and the right of belief of all people...I cannot accept such statements as...Because it is written in the BIBLE...as any form of PROOF or evidence as far as attempting to refute the REALITY of EVOLUTION.

Many times on Evolution vs. Creation threads a member will use the Biblical stated age of the Earth or use what is written in GENESIS as some template for reality....as in Adam and Eve being the First and ONLY two people on Earth.

Such things have been PROVEN to be Time Honored Stories written by Ancient Man as a means of both teaching a lesson as well as trying to explain in common terms what could not be explained back then by the Science of Genetics and Geology. We know that Humans in there various forms driven by Evolutionary change...have been around almost 5 Million Years as well as know that the Earth is Ancient in the Extreme at 4.5 to 4.9 Billion Years old. We also know that it is GENETICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for only TWO PEOPLE to populate the Earth as only two people would not posses the needed Genetic Diversity to breed for more than 3 to 6 generations before Birth Defects and Sterility would cause the Human Race to die out.

Still again...all this does not disprove the possible existence of a GOD.

Split Infinity

While i cant say its impossible for god to have done it,
the reason the two cannot co exist is because one relies
on a book that is obviously not the word of a deity and
that book makes claims that simply do not mesh up with
what science has discovered.

Basically the addition of god is pointless unless you
simply want religion to be true, it is not scientific to
say, we don't understand it so it must be god, with
no evidence to suggest or even support that claim
its a waste of time.

Also they want us to teach children lies so they may
remain relevant in world that is slowly moving away
from the fallacy that is religion, it fails at providing
morality, it fails at providing science to move the world
forward, it fails at understanding our ancient history
to the point its laughable.

we tried to live under religion, it was called the dark
ages, honestly id really rather not go back there where
the church decides what is and is not good science
based on the whims of their leaders and not scientific
evidence.......

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Very well stated, I also don't see any conflict at all, if God created us, and being that He is said to be perfect, evolution would be something given unto us to adapt to environmental changes of this earth as time went by.

Perhaps some people who can only see the letter but miss the spirit don't understand the book of Genesis was written almost 4000 years ago, and if most people are not educated these days, imagine then, so the book is perhaps only a tale (with a real background) suited for people with almost no understanding, which was the only way to reach out for those people. This is something evolutionists fail to see.

peace

reply to post by SplitInfinity

I would also like to note that although I respect the beliefs and the right of belief of all people...I cannot accept such statements as...Because it is written in the BIBLE...as any form of PROOF or evidence as far as attempting to refute the REALITY of EVOLUTION.

Many times on Evolution vs. Creation threads a member will use the Biblical stated age of the Earth or use what is written in GENESIS as some template for reality....as in Adam and Eve being the First and ONLY two people on Earth.

Such things have been PROVEN to be Time Honored Stories written by Ancient Man as a means of both teaching a lesson as well as trying to explain in common terms what could not be explained back then by the Science of Genetics and Geology.

There are three bits of evidence that need to be considered.

1) Time Dilation and Time Stretching from Expansion - Genesis is told from God's perspective. As this thread points out, the paradox of both true is the most evident axiom. We are both 6 days and 15 billion years old. All of nature is on a curve of ratios built from 1:1.618. Time is a factor of the same and Space and Time cannot be separated.

6 Days and 15 Billion Years

2) Involution and Evolution is Baptism. Baptism is immersion into water to rise to new life. Water is Hydrogenesis. Do we have evidence this was known for the last 2000 years, even before the scientific method?

Gospel of the Nazarenes (Lection 88)

v. 12. For by involution and evolution shall the salvation of all the world be accomplished: by the Descent of Spirit into matter, and the Ascent of matter into Spirit through the ages.

Involution and Evolution

3) How long have we known that the DNA of a creature produces the creature from information and coding? Is it any surprise that Jesus stated that blood (Shed over time) was the mechanism for the next evolution of mankind? Do we wonder why DNA happens to fall into the shape of Moses staff, and further, fits the description of the tree of life perfectly?

Is it any surprise that the Bible already stated this for us in John 1?

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

What two things must evolve if we are programmed by information?

John 3

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh (MATTER / PARTICLE) gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit (CONSCIOUSNESS) gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Matter - Both Particle and Wave (Wave function collapse)
Spirit - Consciousness

As you say, it's both. Evolution is not a cause, but a result. Programming is the cause. Energy is information and this is now known to be accurate. All of what I say above is verified science at the highest axiom. We are produced from what is not seen (information).

Hebrews 11

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

What is most evident can never be fact, only the axiom we hold. There is no paradox with the Bible.

Energy is information:



We are created in a holographic image of TIME, SPACE, MATTER AND ENERGY. Water and Light are the primary mechanisms for life. Carbon originates in stars, where hydrogen produces the elements from 1 proton and 1 electron in a balanced state of equilibrium. For us, this is the first example of the knowledge of duality, both positive and negative. From here, all electrons and protons have an added neutral. Like Christ on the cross with two thieves on either side, the one that repents is the proton in the middle with the neutron. All of nature proclaims this for us.

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning (TIME) God created the heavens (SPACE) and the earth (MATTER). 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light (ENERGY).

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

An image is the reflection of what it mirrors. It is an illusion of duality, both positive and negative; object and shadow from light. Light is a duality of particle and wave. Consciousness is necessary to collapse the wave function. You need all three, therefore matter alone cannot generate wave to particle. The Copenhagen interpretation of QM demonstrates this.

Father - Light
Son - Word / Wave / Law / Government
Holy Spirit - Consciousness

The Trinity is a mirror of us. We are both particle and wave making our matter and we have spirit. To deny spirit would be blasphemy. It is the most evident part of our involution and evolution.

The only paradox here is that so many people love their ignorance.

reply to post by bloodreviara


Personally....I am an Agnostic...I will not rule out a possibility that can exist.

You are speaking of Religion...and rightly so as so many are bogged down in such Dogma.

I speak of the possibility of a GOD...and I will NOT attempt to define what this is, means or stands for...existing.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

I've never seen a conflict between them, but it helps that I was a student of History before being a Christian.
So to me the idea of God working through events on the ground is easy and natural.
A good Biblical example; Cyrus had good, practical reasons of his own for wanting to conquer Babylon, and the thought that he might in some sense be working for the God of the Israelites never entered his head.
Similarly the processes of evolution.

reply to post by MoonChild1973


I can only think that if the Universe and perhaps Multiverse was created by a GOD...such a thing or GOD would be MUCH different that what the religious faithful think it is.

Split Infinity

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Ah....I HATE to do this but where do I begin?

You must understand that ANYTHING can be associated to ANYTHING ELSE. Thus comparisons of reality to the written book of Genesis holds no water.

As far as Time Dilation. By the time that Earth had oceans, land masses and atmosphere and eventually about 5 Million years ago...the dawn of Man....Space/Time surrounding the Earth was almost identical to what it is now.

5 Million Years is but a blink of an eye cosmologically.

Split Infinity

reply to post by DISRAELI


As I have stated...the existence of a GOD is a possibility. In a Multiversal System there is a 100% Probability of there being a Divergent Universal Reality where a GOD exists....as well as a 100% Probability of a Divergent Universal Reality where a GOD does not exist.

So...one never knows.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by bloodreviara

 

Personally....I am an Agnostic...I will not rule out a possibility that can exist.

You are speaking of Religion...and rightly so as so many are bogged down in such Dogma.

I speak of the possibility of a GOD...and I will NOT attempt to define what this is, means or stands for...existing.

Split Infinity

I am curious. Read my post above. Can you deny any one of the three statements I make as true to science and true to our current understanding of Quantum Mechanics, Time/Space relativity and biology?

If it is most evident, and a previous textbook told us the same story, why would we discount it as stories told by early mankind? Isn't it more possible that it was told TO early mankind in the form they could understand? Further, do we have evidence for higher intelligence being on Earth when the long count calendars were set in place 5125 years ago? Also, doesn't the book of Enoch tell us that the early civilization of Adam was corrupted by sky gods? Did he say that DNA was corrupted? Was this verified by the book of Jasher, chapter 4?

Jasher 4

And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.

We can explain this as stories, but why in the world would we? This is evidence with a verified time stamp dating beyond our knowledge of it. Out of place artifacts should tell us we are not alone as intelligent beings.

Also, what about the radian mathematics of ancients sites left behind by a common intelligence across the globe? Does science explain this by human reasoning?

We are left with two choices by the evidence:

1) Either higher intelligence existed before mankind and originated in this vast universe...
2) or number one is true and God is beyond this universe...

We don't have ANY evidence that a third option of random chance and evolution caused this in our universe. Collapsing wave function and the nature of our universe as an image moving in time denies this. Scientists all over our world are starting to see this. We are created. This IS the highest axiom we have. We even have the evidence our creators were here.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Ah....I HATE to do this but where do I begin?

You must understand that ANYTHING can be associated to ANYTHING ELSE. Thus comparisons of reality to the written book of Genesis holds no water.

As far as Time Dilation. By the time that Earth had oceans, land masses and atmosphere and eventually about 5 Million years ago...the dawn of Man....Space/Time surrounding the Earth was almost identical to what it is now.

5 Million Years is but a blink of an eye cosmologically.

Split Infinity

Again, I am going with what is most evident. Time stretches and so does evolution. The first day should be the longest. Each day thereafter would stretch in the opposite direction of expansion. It's relative and so is gravity in relation to time. This IS what we observe and KNOWN to be true. As it turns out, each day of Genesis creation is exactly what science says happened. Additionally, the same type of ratio from beginning to end is observed as we approach singularities. Mathematically, this is the answer to the question. There is no paradox.

I gave you three bits of information that are most evident. This cannot be simply dismissed with the thought, "They somehow got lucky." This IS the entire topic of the Bible. The odds it gets Creation right and that the topic of the entire Bible goes on to describe nature perfectly in parable is simply too much to dismiss. Essentially, you are saying we cannot use it as evidence because.... Say the same thing about science if you dismiss any evidence. You might as well say, we can never know anything. Why would we dismiss the most evident artifact we have?

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by MoonChild1973

 

I can only think that if the Universe and perhaps Multiverse was created by a GOD...such a thing or GOD would be MUCH different that what the religious faithful think it is.

Split Infinity

Yes, when referring to religious people, no doubt, it's a matter of dogma, but maybe when it comes to the bible, I don't see anything wrong with it, from the silly looking of Genesis to the horrors of Deuteronomy, it's all a matter of bad interpretation and history. Many texts on the bible were made to reach out incredibly simple people, such as Genesis, whilst Deuteronomy is more like the history of the moral/legal code of their time. Jesus is the moral guide, which is impeccable.

After years criticizing the bible, I understood one day the problem was me, as most people, I didn't know what was the background for any of the books.

Cheers,

reply to post by EnochWasRight


No...we cannot use it as evidence as ANYONE living at the time the Bible was written could have written it.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the Bible that anyone living then could not have written as it is all self evident.

You need to brush up on the realities of Time Dilation as time will stay constant for all on a Celestial Body that creates a Gravity well...such as Earth.

Split Infinity

reply to post by MoonChild1973


I have no problem with the Bible as I feel many people need it very much. It is by and by a good teaching tool and does give the multitudes that need it...Hope. Not everyone needs this so desperately.

One just has to remember that it is a Book of Stories...some Historic...some made up to describe what at that time was unknowable...and some things that were outright MADE UP...Revelations...by taking the stories from other cultures and religions.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

No...we cannot use it as evidence as ANYONE living at the time the Bible was written could have written it.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the Bible that anyone living then could not have written as it is all self evident.

You need to brush up on the realities of Time Dilation as time will stay constant for all on a Celestial Body that creates a Gravity well...such as Earth.

Split Infinity

Who wrote your science textbooks? We can dismiss these as well? History? Does history demonstrate that our axioms have unified and risen to higher axioms? In relation, do we see our previous historical and scientific sources fall to previous knowledge as it crumbles from the weight of new discovers? Yes. This is relative. The Bible has NEVER been relative in this manner. It has ALWAYS been the higher axiom. Again, this defies information entropy.

I agree, both are correct.

From my understanding, all life goes through the evolution of the 8 Densities, and 7 octaves of each density.

However, creation is possible, look at humans cloning sheep (God knows what else).

Food for thought.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

You need to brush up on the realities of Time Dilation as time will stay constant for all on a Celestial Body that creates a Gravity well...such as Earth.

Split Infinity

Exactly. If we walk down a spiraling staircase, we always see large steps. Look up or down and you see dilation. Time/Space is one thing. In the early universe, when gravity was most dense, time would have been relative to this. As expansion happens, time dilates relative to the frame of reference to the observer. God's perspective would be outside this expansion and our frame of reference to the spiral.

You got that right.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

No...we cannot use it as evidence as ANYONE living at the time the Bible was written could have written it.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the Bible that anyone living then could not have written as it is all self evident.

You need to brush up on the realities of Time Dilation as time will stay constant for all on a Celestial Body that creates a Gravity well...such as Earth.

Split Infinity

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Well...you just hit a pet peave of mine...NOTHING and I mean NOTHING can defy ENTROPHY. Not any amount of Matter...not any amount of Energy...not even an Idea or Belief.

Next...I would like to state that I think the Bible is a necessary book for many who need Hope as well as guidence.

It is NOT a book where what is written in it can be proved to be 100% Fact and much of it does not even have 1% Fact. As example...the church refused to include the Gospels of Mary Magdalyne and the Gospels of Judas as well as a few others in the New Testament. In it is the Gospels of the base 4 Apostels which state that Jesus preached he was the actual Son of GOD.

Mary and Judas and a few others Gospels state that Jesus taught that WE COULD ALL BE SON'S AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD if we all followed Jesus' teachings. It is easy to see why the church left these Gospels out of the Bible.

We also do not have even 1...ONE original Gospel written by the Actual Apostle as what we do have is the writtings of OTHERS claiming that they copied the original Gospels. With THAT amount of probability for error...NOTHING can be proven to be 100% the accurate words or writtings of the Apostles or Jesus.

Split Infinity