19 Yr Old Hostage Gunned Down By Police While Escaping Captor

Originally posted by r2d246
You can't actually fully blame the cops though. The boy should have carefully weighed his options. You got a milloin guns poited at the entry of a door. And you decide to go threw the door? Like come on use some common sense.

Yes, he really should have taken time to sit and reflect upon his options while being shot at by the gunman. Why would he rush to action like that? And what the hell was he thinking, deciding that he would be safer running out of the house with the crazed gunman shooting at him, and towards the cops who are supposedly there to protect him? I know the door was his only possible escape route, but come on...why would you try to escape a house where a crazed gunman is holding you hostage? Geez, what a doofus.....

Originally posted by r2d246
You can't actually fully blame the cops though. The boy should have carefully weighed his options. You got a milloin guns poited at the entry of a door. And you decide to go threw the door? Like come on use some common sense.

Really? You have someone holding you hostage, and given the chance you would rather stay with this person rather than trust that the people outside trying to get you free, won't kill you? Please use your own advice, common sense.

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
the truly obscene thing is
these idiots walk scott free

they just place the blame
and all charges on the kidnapper

never mind that their fingers pulled the trigger

With all due respect, what would you have had the cops do? They weren't new rookies... the article says they ranged from 2 to 11 years experience. The real bad guy JUST fired right at them...in terms of how it sounded to them..from inside the room. Unfortunately, by how the story reads....before the victim had become visible. So, the cops couldn't know for sure who fired, just that he was charging out.

After reading the story again and focusing more on the details for what that sick animal did to the hostages, I can't blame the the guy for running a bit. It really is a shame it hadn't been him going out the door, given his crimes inside the room. Perhaps the cops HAD heard some of that and were not sure it wasn't the same guy for that too.

Now that is something that hadn't even occurred to me until reading the story again and realizing they sound like he raped one of them in front of the others in the bathroom. He's getting charged with the sexual offenses just shy of it.. (??)

I'll bet these cops are 'mentally' shooting themselves for the rest of their lives though...and nothing anyone can do will change that much..would be my guess. The other part of the tragedy that won't end on this.

reply to post by butcherguy


Guilt by association seems to be the going theme in this country.....dont you watch COPs?

Ok look, when I say you cant blame the cops...look at it this way.

How many of you have to deal with the scum of humanity on a nightly basis? The absolute worse humans have to offer?

Don't you think that maybe their reaction was partly based off of the conditioning created by working in that type of enviroment?

I deal with asshats galore on a routine basis, because of this i don't like people in general. See what I mean?

It drives your attitude towards others....and thus effects your choice making skills. I am in no way condoning what they did....both police and victim are at fault here in one way or another. im just simply saying they did what t hey were supposed to do. And maybe in the past it was all serve and protect....now its just serve and CYA.

Say someone comes into your home in the middle of the night....are you going to pause instinctively to see if they have a weapon beyond who it is or isn't? I wouldn't....I'd probably just shoot them..because i cant think of anyone who should be standing in my house uninvited at 2 am. better yet lets add something here...say the person in the house is running to you...do you wait to see if he's armed? or do you shoot?


Its the same premise for the cops..thats why they operate in such a grey area when it comes to shootings.

reply to post by Kastogere

I'm not a cop.

Guess what, I (like everyone else that isn't a hermit) have to deal with asshats every day too.

The big difference is that we non- LEO's do not have a license to beat and/or kill. We also don't have LEO buddies covering up and looking the other way for us when we screw up.

This is like Final Destination. Stay and be shot or run and be shot. Either way, he was already a dead man.

I would expect that since our military have rules of engagement to protect our enemies, the police in our country should have even stricter rules of engagement to protect our innocent citizens. Besides when you are covered with armor and surrounded with 5 to 50 fellow officers you would have enough personal courage to be certain before shooting. Since police have to pass psych testing to get their jobs i have to suspect they pick people who place 0 to low value on human life.

reply to post by GoldenRuled

Yeah, that's pretty much what happens when the police have an armed person at bay, and someone comes charging out towards them to the sound of gunfire. Stuff like that makes them nervous.

If you trouble to see it from their viewpoint, it isn't such a surprise, nor does it look so bad.

An armed suspect is holding hostages behind a closed door that they've got surrounded. A man charges out of the room and a gunshot is heard. The man is charging *towards* them. They have no way of knowing who this guy is - suspect, suspects accomplice (they can't know, at this point, that the suspect is alone), whatever. All they know are two important points: 1) guy running towards them; 2) sound of a gunshot.

No doubt proper procedure at this point is to look carefully at both hands to make sure they are empty - which may not be possible, depending on your angle of view. Maybe the rule is even to hold fire until you can definitely identify a gun in the guy's hand - I don't know. I'm sure it's not, "gun him down and ask questions later."

But who among all of you critics would follow procedure perfectly? I'm thinking that most of us, if put in that situation, would react much as these guys did, and open fire. No one told this guy to run. No one expected him to run. No one had a clue who the hell he was. Just running and gunshot, and a risk of him killing you or one of your colleagues if you waited too long to fire.

And to be honest, it's not even clear that they didn't follow proper procedure. We don't know whether the victim failed to obey their instructions, which could well have played an important part in the decision to shoot.

None of us was there to see what happened. This article is so woefully biased that I question whether we're getting the whole story. Portraying the police as mad dogs sells papers. A simple story about a tragic mistake doesn't. Not saying these cops *weren't* mad dogs. Just saying that we have no way of knowing.

Here on ATS there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction that the cops are all a bunch of mad dogs who want to shoot people (especially minorities) and are just waiting for a good excuse. That's simply not the case.

I live in Chicago, where the police are not known to be all huggy-feely. I've had my own run-ins with them. I also worked for years at a law firm that specialized in police misconduct cases. I've seen these guys at their worst. But they're a tiny minority of the force. Most of the police are decent folks who do their best in a dangerous, thankless job.

If I used an example of a minority member committing a crime as "proof" that those people are all criminals, you'd (rightfully) jump all over me. If I do the same thing with the police, many would agree enthusiastically.

Me: "A Minority killed someone; they're all animals."
Reaction: "Boo! Get out of here, hater."

Me. "A Cop killed someone; they're all animals."
Reaction: "Yay! You're our hero. S&F for you, pal."

Cops are just another minority.

reply to post by baruch60610

Me: "A Minority killed someone; they're all animals." Reaction: "Boo! Get out of here, hater." Me. "A Cop killed someone; they're all animals." Reaction: "Yay! You're our hero. S&F for you, pal."

There is a bit of a difference between cops as a group, and minorities as groups.

A minority (racial or ethnic) can be a cop.

Cops are a group of people that are hired and trained to do certain things. They act the way that they do as a direct result of their training.

You can't take an ethnic group and say that they have been trained to do one job in particular, they do all sorts of things for a living.... apiarists to zookeepers.

reply to post by Kastogere


Well said. I think people have no clue what the ordinary police officer has to face on a daily basis. It's all well and good to say that they're "trained," but there is no training that protects you against the soul-sickening exposure to humanity at its worst.

You see child abuse, spousal abuse, elder abuse, animal abuse; you see whores selling themselves for drugs, pimps beating them, johns arrogantly using them. You see promising high school kids get pregnant, join a gang, get addicted to drugs; these kids drop out, their lives already blighted. You see friends killing friends during drunken rages, people dying because of stupid mistakes, drinking games gone wrong, drug overdoses, gruesome car crashes caused by stupidity or drunk driving. You take stinking, unwashed, possibly violent addicts to jail, rehab, the hospital or the psyche ward; you see gangs using kids as couriers because the kids are more immune to the laws; when the kids get older you see them forced into prostitution. You try to track down vicious criminals, people who are dangerous, violent, often murderers, and get them off the street. You go to court, and watch them go free time and again. You are called to find the bodies of the elderly who died alone, unnoticed until the smell disturbs the neighbors. You see the homeless mentally ill, out on the streets, unable to care for themselves, ridiculed and even exploited, and there's nothing you can do about it. At any time you may be called to a situation where your life may be threatened; you are expected to remember all of the rules, and to know which ones apply even when faced with a situation never seen before.

And some people say you're an animal, a thug, a fascist, a pig... and you've got a gun, and you don't shoot them.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by baruch60610

 

There is a bit of a difference between cops as a group, and minorities as groups.

A minority (racial or ethnic) can be a cop.

Cops are a group of people that are hired and trained to do certain things. They act the way that they do as a direct result of their training.

You can't take an ethnic group and say that they have been trained to do one job in particular, they do all sorts of things for a living.... apiarists to zookeepers.

You've missed the point. I wasn't implying that anyone trains to become Black. Sorry if I was being unclear. Let me try it again:

Me: "A truck driver killed someone; they're all animals."
Reaction: "Boo! Get out of here, hater."

Me. "A Cop killed someone; they're all animals."
Reaction: "Yay! You're our hero. S&F for you, pal."

"Training" only takes you so far. You can't put a guy through a few months of police academy and expect him to lose all fear, to be able to react perfectly in all situations, to have no faults or vices, to make no mistakes. It doesn't happen. All you get is a better trained human being, not a saint. If you're lucky you've weeded out most of the misfits - the thieves, bigots, bullies, perverts - even before training began. Some always manage to slip through anyway. Those are the ones causing the most trouble, and who the papers love to write about. But even the best of people make mistakes, lose nerve, forget their training. It happens. Rarely.

In the meantime, these cops may face a potentially deadly situation at any time (at least in the cities). When they encounter a threat, they have to do it themselves. That's what they do, all the time.

Yes, the police are "trained," but they don't lose their instinct for self-preservation. You may blithely say that a cop is expected to sacrifice his life for the "citizens," but he's defending the lives of guys like we find here on ATS - guys who insist that cops are vicious killing pigs.

The funny thing is, many cops do exactly that - they *do* sacrifice their lives. And you never seem to find those articles here on ATS, do you? Oh, sure you do, here's one right here:Article. Four replies, two stars; I can't tell if anyone flagged it.

No one here seemed to find it important.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Kastogere

 

I'm not a cop.

Guess what, I (like everyone else that isn't a hermit) have to deal with asshats every day too.

I'm sorry, but you don't experience anything close to what a cop in a city faces, unless you are presently incarcerated (in which case I could you understand holding cops in deficient esteem). There is a big difference between "having to deal with asshats" and having to face asshats who are pointing a gun at you, who may have just killed someone, and who may be mentally ill, viciously psychopathic, or impaired by any number of mind-altering substances. Over and over again, day after day.

I suspect that most of the cop-haters here would have an entirely different view on things if they were to tag along with the cops for a few months to get an idea of what's really going on - who the cops really are, what they face, that sort of thing. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that most of the haters don't know much about cops or what cops do for a living.

Originally posted by Screenlearner
reply to post by Kastogere

 

Well,,I am deaf, I guess they can shoot me if I can't hear them

Pretty much, yes. In an emergency situation, when a guy's running out of a room at you, there sometimes just isn't enough time to track down someone who can sign in ASL and have them translate the instructions. The same applies to anyone who is unable to understand the instructions for whatever reason (doesn't speak English; intellectually impaired; mentally ill; etc). He may die as a result.

You do the best you can with what you have, knowing that it will never, ever be perfect no matter how hard you try. Sometimes people die.

Originally posted by Johnkie
this is just plain retarded, is thoose people handling thoose guns really so low on iq ?...
Why would a hostage taker run outside to a bunch of cops, when he knows, that they assume hes armed.
Stupidity sheit...

Well, I can think of a whole bunch of reasons. First, it could be that the suspect isn't particularly bright. In fact, he might be spectacularly stupid. Evidence of lack of intelligence might be taking hostages in the first place. Second, even if he's another Einstein, he might have gotten himself so wasted that he doesn't know what he's doing.. Third, he might be mentally ill, which can cause a person to act irrationally. Fourth, he might be suicidal, and trying to commit "suicide by cop." Fifth, he might have decided that there's no way he's going back to prison, so he might as well take a few cops with him as he goes out in a blaze of glory.

All of these things have actually happened. If I know it, the cops know it; and they've probably heard or experienced dozens of other reasons besides these.

See, there is something that people should know when you're a hostage and you have people trying to rescue you: don't do anything. Seriously. In the Marines, I was trained that if I were a POW and there was a group that came to the rescue, just lay down and don't get in the way. Don't do anything.

Yes, I understand this is military training and civilians will not get that. I get that civilians should NOT have to worry about that kind of thing but there are stupid and crazy people out there that will take hostages for whatever reason. How would you teach civilians what to do in a hostage situation? I admit that I do not know. But, I think people should know this kind of stuff.

As far as the cops go, this is just ridiculous. On one hand, this was completely avoidable and those who shot should be held accountable. On the other hand, the situation as it was, this could possibly be looked at as a grievous mistake. I'm not going to make a judgement call on that because I was not there to see the events play out and the media will not always give the full details.

reply to post by baruch60610

I'm sorry, but you don't experience anything close to what a cop in a city faces, unless you are presently incarcerated (in which case I could you understand holding cops in deficient esteem).

ETA: You should be sorry, you don't have a clue where I live, where I have lived or what I have dealt with in my life.

Anyone that lives in the inner city experiences just as bad or worse than the cops that work there and go home to their quiet suburban neighborhoods to finish out their day.
I have never been arrested or incarcerated.

My knowledge of cops comes from my experience with them on the 'right side' of the law.

There is a big difference between "having to deal with asshats" and having to face asshats who are pointing a gun at you, who may have just killed someone, and who may be mentally ill, viciously psychopathic, or impaired by any number of mind-altering substances. Over and over again, day after day.

Doesn't really sound like you live in the inner city. Do you think that you have to be a cop to have a gun pointed at you? No, you don't. Most cities restrictive gun laws make it so that the criminal is the one that is armed in a confrontation with a typical, law-abiding city dweller..... Not the same for cops.... is it?

Originally posted by VforVendettea

Originally posted by Echo007
I don't know how police officers can live with themselves when they take someones life like that out of their own fear.

Because they see non police as the ENEMY.
They have no problem looking at themselves in the mirror after an incedent like this.

Gee, I wonder why they see non-police as the enemy. Everyone's so *nice* to them, so supportive...

Take a look at this thread. Cop pointed a *taser* at dogs that were threatening him. The owner shot the cop dead. I'm not talking about the owner, look at the various responses.

I'll summarize: "Served the pig right for threatening the dogs with a taser. F** the cop."

That sort of thing just might give police the ridiculous notion that not everyone loves them.

reply to post by baruch60610

No one here seemed to find it important.

Cops take the job with it's inherent risks. Then when they are killed, they get a parade. Their victims don't.

What person of a racial or ethnic minority signs a deal saying that they expect to encounter danger?

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