Suicide and thread warnings.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

actually what you are talking about right there is eugenics. I feel sorry about your outlook on life, it really saddens me. i'm not really sure what you are actually arguing for.

I guess it is a "form" of natural eugenics sure.
This is not a panel of people deciding but an individual deciding for him/herself.
Surely you would agree with a persons right to choose for their own sake.

If a person wants to commit suicide, there isn't much stopping them. Are you arguing for doctor assisted suicide?

Sure, that too, or even just a emo kid who talks of it all day long, maybe at the last minute he/she will find something worth living for.
Or not, either way the gene pool will be a better place.

I don't think I could really have an opinion unless I was put in a situation that would force that choice on me. All I can say is that the friend I have who is fighting cancer will never be cured, but I sure as hell want her to live every moment of her life that she can, not "punch out early".

Cancer is not suicide, and generally these people are torn screaming and kicking from this world, they know what they have and appreciate it.
Fact: Many with terminal cancer do end up suicide or being killed due to morphine overdose.
Towards the end the pain can become quite extreme, many who have lost someone to cancer can testify to this, some won't as it is uncomfortable and probably illegal for those involved.
There is generally never a full autopsy due to the fact that the body is riddled with cancer.

Suicide is a selfish act, there is no getting around that. When a loved one dies, it's tough, it takes a long time to come to terms with it and live your life again. When that person commits suicide, I don't think I'd ever get that out of my head, the same if a loved one was murdered, I would spend the rest of my life replaying what it must have been like.

It may be a selfish act but, it is their act, for them not us.
Murder on the other hand is wrong and not the topic.

And for a suicide, I'd be replaying every instant of my time with them, wondering, was there a sign I missed? Was I not doing what they needed?

That is your prison not theirs, if truly a good friend, hopefully you will see signs.
Inevitably it is all on them as they were the ones to do the job, not you.
If they have "excused" themselves from life, you must "excuse" yourself from blame.

Any time the thought of my death creeps into my head, be it self inflicted or otherwise, I can't help but think of the people it would affect once I was gone.

Years back I had a job where I was a pivotal person and I thought "man if I were to quit, I don't know how the boss would make this company work".
Then I sat back and actually thought about it and realized, the boss would do just fine and this company would too without me.
Eventually I ended up leaving and the company is still making money, it survived without me.
Life is much the same, the sun will still come up without us and folks will live and even thrive.

Originally posted by Apheon
Suicide?

I've done a lot of living in the past six minutes, and I'm running out of time, no needs of ending the race early, I've yet to come around the bend.


ps: I'm hoping if I do ever a fall that sporty lil prat from the state track meet will scoop me up and help me across the finish line...

edit on 6-6-2012 by Apheon because: (no reason given)

It seems you have a reason to thrive and you know it.
This is an awesome thing!

reply to post by Mister_Bit


Yet you are still here to talk about it.
Just maybe as you are a member here at ATS, you understand where your torment comes from and that is your ember burning deep within that propels you.
Maybe you hope to be vindicated and that is what makes you hold on.
Bottom line, you know there is a purpose to be here, and you survive until you can find a way to live.
Just maybe, star to you.

reply to post by g146541


I'm of the belief that it is not my right to tell someone how to live their life,therefore it is not my right to tell them not to take it,if that's what they choose to do.Now,if someone I loved wanted to do it..would I try to talk them out of it?Sure.But ultimately it is their choice whether we like it or not.

Originally posted by g146541

As I see it, mental problems cannot be "cured" therefore, they are an incurable condition.
So in the hopes that nobody will get a thread warning for hurting someones feelings, this topic is a rant I guess.
What are your feelings on the subject?
Is it logical for a person to be able to "punch out" early if they are faulty equipment?
I say yes, not to be mean but for very practical and logical reasons.

Please, rant on.

As you see it mental problems cannot be cured? So if a person has an addiction and is successful at treating that addiction, is he not cured? If a person suffers from depression following the loss of a loved one but comes out of that deep dark place, is he not cured.

Please explain what you see as "mental problems" and why they cannot be cured.

Originally posted by scorpiosin

Originally posted by Dustytoad

But seriously though,
My main point is that you cannot cheat this game.
you can't cheat life, and you can't cheat death.

edit on 6/6/2012 by Dustytoad because: (no reason given)

This. It's cheating. I know I've had and have times where I want out of here. But not like that.

And that's your choice.

Isn't being free to make up your own mind for yourself wonderful?

Namaste

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
I have been in the deepest depths of depression and seriously considered the coward's way out. Then I went to a funeral of a peace officer who had used his service revolver to kill himself because his wife had left him. Although all his fellow officers were there, it was an awful funeral. Nobody would speak for this man, and they all turned their backs on his urn (he was cremated) and walked out without a word. I saw his children, who were crying, torn-up, and confused. I saw his family hugging each other and crying out "why" in grief.

As upset and low and I felt them, I realized that taking my own life, as insignificant as I felt, would have severely negative repercussions for my children and my family, and I just couldn't do that to them. I got through it, and 12 years later, I look back and thank God that I didn't do what I was thinking of doing. I was blind for a while, but eventually I regained my sight. This is the difference between a terminal physical illness and a mental one.

The only disagreement I have here is you presume that the depths of depression you reached are in the same ballpark as that officer.

If the officer reached this point and all the friends and family were asking why and his co-workers were turning their backs on his urn... that tells me a lot. Those are good signs that perhaps none of them knew what was really going on underneath and maybe rather than send negativity to him look at themselves to ask "why were we so blind?" There are almost always signs but most people don't want to believe them and after the fact don't want to accept they weren't really listening.

We can never know if OUR "darkest" moments are close to what is going on in the head and heart of someone else who does decide to make that next push. You don't know if you have a darker moment where you finally will. Ask yourself what it might take to reach that point? Then perhaps you might get a taste of what that person was feeling (regardless of whether you feel it is justified or not... some people probably consider your own depression unjustified).

This is why we will start being much better off as a civilization when we stop judging each other and stop assuming we have any real idea what's going on inside someone else when they do things we don't agree with. It's destroying us.

We spend more time inappropriately and ineffectively telling each other what to do and how to be than we do actually listening to each other. Especially those who have differences.

Every single person who entered this thread saying "When I was at my darkest *I* didn't do it!" are taking a holier than thou stance and assuming that their darkest moment must be just as dark as everyone else's, even those who finally DID do what they chose not to. Get over yourselves and stop presuming your experience gives you enough information to judge another... and I mean that as lovingly as possible.

Most people who consider suicide do consider the impact on the family. Part of the problem is they feel they are even WORSE for their family alive than the suffering the family will experience after is, especially if there are financial issues. So they do what in their curent way of looking think is the "compassionate" approach and in reality they truly are being more compassionate in their judgement based on what they are truly feeling. Most family who hear someone is suicidal are not compassionate... they are horrified and start acting in ways that makes the suicidal person feel even more like they are causing more harm alive than dead.

Namaste.

It's situational. Just because you have a mental illness is no reason to kill yourself. Now someone with Alzhiemer's disease or really bad case of Dementia should be allowed to end it because it would only be a mercy to them. Sooner or later you have to ask yourself when does allowing euthanasia fall under an act of kindness and mercy? If your brain was swiss cheesed and you didn't know up from down, would you want to live like that and forget all those you love and in some cases your own God?

I think Jack Kevorkian was probably right. Choose from allowing someone to live in a wretched state in so much pain that it drives them insane or helping them find peace as an act of mercy? If you've never seen someone with alzheimers get so bad that they can no longer feed themselves, or even know who they are anymore and can do nothing more, will you let them continue to suffer or grant them mercy?

At what point does protecting your own ass and your own job greater than performing an act of mercy and kindness? People in this world are more concerned with money than being merciful.

reply to post by g146541


You said,
"Agreed, if someone is so distraught early on, maybe they just got the short end of the stick and should get out of the gene pool".


So you think that a little girl just reaching puberty, all confused, unhappy, sees no happiness in her future ought to just give up and kill herself? What if this was your daughter? In school they have death class, so kids see suicide as a solution (how convenient huh). Your ignorance is astonishing. Oh wait… are you a child still?
Most cases of depression are situational depression. That means that a condition or situation is the cause of the depression. When the situation or condition changes.. the depression will too. It is a condition that generally gets resolved in time and a caring person to help with the transition.

You said,
"Now who should be encouraged to do away with themselves?
The same people who are miserable on this plane of existence, get out of the way so those of us who do like to live can do what we do".


I’m kind of wondering what it is that you do darling. Tell me, what great things do you do that makes a whole segment of population less valuable than your own life? Did you cure some world-wide epidemic, have you perfected a way to specifically target and destroy genetic defects in the DNA strand all by yourself? Tell me princess, What do you do that justifies this stand you take that your life is more valuable than hundreds of thousands of people who are down on their luck? I expect you to reply and tell us.

You said,
"Now your last paragraph talks of people who "ought to be killed", that is called murder and is not suicide and it is not the topic".

No honey… you took it out of context. Were you in a hurry? Go ahead, read it again. If you want to correct yourself, toss it in that reply I will look forward too.

suicide is the easy way out, we were all given life and never once did anyone promise that it would be good or bad, to throw it away is wasteful and is one of only a few mistakes u cant correct, if ur really feel like dying start testing yourself were the consequences for failing is death and the reward for passing is a life that is now better because u tested yourself and passed..........."you got to test yourself everyday cause if you don't ,that's when they get you"-william h bonnie(young guns)

I have a "mental problem." Severe clinical depression, PTSD....stemming from a violent rape.

I have been close to suicide a few times. The last time, several years ago, I decided to drive into a bridge on the interstate.

I remember watching the bridge approach, and how I felt. I swerved at the last moment, and drove myself to the hospital instead. Two weeks later, I checked out of the looney bin. For the next year and a half, I saw a psychiatrist on a regular basis and took different medicines. Over the course of the therapy, she weaned me off each medicine as we dealt with my issues.

Twelve years later. I still take one med, that I will take forever. But in those twelve years, I've taught children how to read, helped adults get their GED, married a wonderful man and had a beautiful son. There are countless people whom I've touched in some way (that's not arrogance, but fact).

By the reasoning in the OP, I should have driven into that bridge. It would have solved all sorts of problems.

By my reasoning, going through the trauma and emerging on the other side, alive and whole, allows me a different perspective on life. I have greater compassion and understanding for folks in similar situations. That empathy allows me to make a connection with those folks, and sometimes that connection can lead to a more hopeful situation.

Life is more than just experiencing emotions. When you can take your experience and use it to help others....that's living.

reply to post by g146541


If you feel like you could harm yourself our others, get some help. I did.

Since about a year and a half now I was sure that my only option left was to opt out.
Thank god I didn't take the leap ( literally ) because I love my family and friends and they love me.
If someone holds you dearly, unless you're on your death bed suffering with no chance of survival, there is a way to
get passed our demons, and overcome sorrow.

Talk to people you love and open your heart to them, you'll see that suicide is not really an option since we all have to face our destiny, walk our path to the end and witness the beauty and glory of self accomplishment at the last moment, the last breath that was destined in time for us all.

Again, get some help if sorrow, loneliness or anger takes a toll in your life, I did.
And I've been doing good so far ( something that helps is to think about the reaction of my mom when she'd hear the bad news ( tears me up everytime) and the idea quickly becomes a non option ), I love you brother ( or sister?) and I believe in every person and their potential of full self accomplishment.

Take care OP and Peace!

Some people were given a bad start in life, either through the family they were born into or their brain functioning.

In my eyes all life is precious.

FYI: Usually rage takes one of two forms depending on the person.

A suicidal person will take their hurt and rage out on themselves..........these are usually internal type of people.

Then you have your external type of person that blames everyone and everything and is mad at the world and will blast away taking others down before they decide they are a dead person walking anyway and kill them self vs going to jail knowing they are facing capital punishment.

The post you referred to, in my opinion was equivalent to someone standing on a street corner, looking up at a fellow human being who is still quite young (born in 1983 he has his whole life ahead of him), he is soon to loose his job, his wife, his kids, his marriage, his home..............in other words every single thing this person held dear is now being taken from him and you yelled "jump".

I've had a interesting life, gone through a lot of "stuff", bad "stuff". There were points in my life where I really didn't want to see the next day arrive but I never got to the point (guts) to end my life.

Add to that how cute now it is to be "mean", "harsh", "cruel"................no not cool.

I was raised by my mother that if someone falls, you help them up you don't kick them.

I was raised that what makes a human "better" (supposedly) than the other "animals" is that we nurture and protect the weak vs eat or allow the weaker of our species to die.

Some people live a charmed life, to various degrees, yes everyone has problems but having your life pulled out from under you and learning you may not be "normal" (what is normal anyway???) could drive anyone to do something rash.

This incident, in my opinion was like a code blue...............a person reaching out, holding onto the edge of the cliff.

You can either offer a hand and pull them up or stomp on their fingers. You chose, again in my opinion, the latter.

I am tired of the mean, sarcastic, apathetic and cruel remarks. On ATS these seem to be increasing year by year.

We are here to discuss conspiracies and at times help or inspire.

There is already enough hate, apathy and cruelness in the world.

I've worked a psyche ward, and suicides tend to want to kill themselves not others around them. They hurt themselves not others.

Often times if you examine their files, they are people who have either gone through extraordinary circumstances and or have some kind of malfunctioning brain or chemical function going on. Many can be controlled by proper counseling and medication.

We each come to these forums with various backgrounds.

Some of us weren't lucky enough to come from stable backgrounds and or some of us weren't lucky enough to have a 100% properly functioning brain / chemical functioning.

We once had a woman come into the ER and she was bat crazy, and I mean totally nutzo. No, it wasn't drugs, alcohol, abuse, etc..............it was a electrolyte imbalance.

Once they zeroed in on that and fixed it, she was as normal as any of us.

My oldest son was born with ADHD, He has always been impulsive. The chemicals that each brain cell secretes so that the synapses can occur, don't or maybe there is a chemical missing.

As far as how the miracle of how the human brain works we are still in the dark dark ages. We haven't even begun to fathom how the human brain works.

Einstein's parents were told to put him in a institution when he was young due to being autistic........what if they had.

Scientists say one thing one decade and decide something else the next.

Go here and read a list of people who are or were "bi-polar": www.mental-health-today.com... and here: www.famousbipolarpeople.com...

Again, most importantly.................when someone is down, don't kick them, a true hero, helps them up.

Telling someone to do the job meaning, go ahead and off yourself was a most horrible and cruel reply.

I pray that if you ever have a son or daughter and they write into a forum with deep depression, someone doesn't spur them to kill them self.

You have no idea what suicide does to a family. The heart ache it leaves.

reply to post by GmoS719

suicide isn't cowardice. it is the last act of a desperately unhappy person and it takes more courage than you can possibly fathom.

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
suicide is the easy way out...

Are you speaking from experience?

reply to post by g146541


Mental health problems cannot be completely cured no, but most can be handled. I have suffered with severe depression since a teen but it got horrendous after my second child. I am only thankful that I got some help otherwise I may not be here today expecting a new bundle of joy any day now and with two very happy children already. I am aware of the risks of it sneaking up again and am prepared to seek help at the first sign. Not once in my whole life have I ever even considered taking my mental health issues out on another person and I can honestly I never would.
So no, in respect of some mental illnesses, I disagree that we should just let a suicidal person get on with it.

However! In terms of incurable illness such as MS or an inoperable brain tumour (just examples there) then if the person suffering should choose to end their life in a dignified manner rather than painfully and drugged up to the eyeballs and dribbling etc then that should be their choice. We don't leave animals to suffer, so why do we expect humans to?!

Originally posted by g146541

Originally posted by GmoS719
Suicide is wrong no matter how you look at it.
No matter how you spin it.

Kill one to save many....I don't like that idea.

edit on 6-6-2012 by GmoS719 because: (no reason given)

My Grandfather at the ripe young age of 87 ate the "lead pill", coated his garage ceiling and wall with his last thoughts.
My Grandma had passed 13 years before of natural causes.
All of my Grandpa's grandkids were grown and had kids or their own.
My Grandpa had beat colon cancer two years earlier at a great cost to his wellbeing and had just found out he had brain cancer.
Inside his house all over the counters and tables were pictures of his family, a sign that he was thinking hard about the subject at hand.
He left a simple note and had no regrets.
He did his job and did it well, he was ready to punch the clock and go home to Grandma.
I am totally fine with mu Grandpa's death, how do you feel?
Was he wrong?

You win dude. In that situation of course. No one can argue that.

Now what about the kid with a chem imbalance in his head or the girl that gets bullied every day because shes fat or not as pretty. Did I mention they were 12. That's not an illness. That's societal effects..

And you also mentioned somewhere that its a genetic trait. Suicide. You are correct. When a child is screened and their mom or dad had committed suicide in most counties or jurisdictions that will warrant a suicide watch for at least 24 hrs. So obviously they have put some research into that. that does not mean that they should be given up on.

Craziest thing was before i wrote this I was in a different mindset. I felt that like suicide or other things that hold the same tone that this is entirely individual and the state has no right to interfere. I disagree slightly now.

On a side note: if your grandfather (rip) would have told someone ( a mandated reporter of sorts) that he was having those feelings the poor guy would have found himself eval'd for 72 hours in some state hospital. That's all I got.

I see no shame in suicide.

But it should be a last resort.

Originally posted by g146541
As I see it, mental problems cannot be "cured" therefore, they are an incurable condition.

...yes, others have addressed this part of your opening post...but I'd like to throw in my own 2 cents worth on it.

Though, I guess in many ways it comes down to ones definition of 'cured'.
If 'cured' is to continue on without any recurrance or relapse of previous symptoms and effects thereof...then yes, Mental Health *problems* can indeed be cured.
A simple google-search on Mental Health recovery stats will show you that.



Also...its an opinion I'm offering as someone who is an actual MH Professional heading into their 17th year in the field. So not one I've merely raised myself off my computer chair long enough to extract from my ass.

Comp RN qualified, Psych Nurse, Acute Inpatient Clinical Coordinator, DAO(Duly Authorised Officer) and someone who currently manages a Community Based MH Service.


People most certainly DO recover and recover fully from mental health problems.

If anything, one of the largest barriers to a persons recovery there is, is basic stigma and discrimination.
Is not how or what they experience...but how we as a society approach it.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
suicide is the easy way out...

Are you speaking from experience?

edit on 2012/6/6 by ErgoTheConfusion because: (no reason given)

yes, i have chose to live this life and deal with everyday hardships as opposed to stop facing them all together, whats easier? to continue moving down a deep dark lonely unknown road, or to stop sit down and never have to deal with the hardships of a journey that will inevitably end one way, death.