Christians!!!…Why do you base your beliefs, theology and doctrines, around the “Book of Revelati

Christians!!!… Why do you base your beliefs, theology and doctrines, around the “Book of Revelations?”

Now I’m sure you all know that the “Book of Revelations”, comes from Christian Gnosticism, and was one of the last books, to be accepted into the bible. The language used, is deeply connected with Christian Gnosticism, as are much of its metaphors, symbols and esoteric motifs. How anyone, can hope to interpret such a book, without being prepared to embrace many aspects Christian Gnosticism, and other Gnostic beliefs, just seems bizarre to me?

And it’s seem to me like John’s other works, “The acts of John” and “The “Secret book of John” etc… to name just a few, have a huge impact, on trying to understand, the “Book of Revelations”, as do many other Christian/Gnostic texts.

Christianity has decided to classify all other Gnostic texts, as being heretical. And the one book it does accept, it interprets it, how it pleases, using a predominately literal fashion, with a dose of it’s own imagination thrown in, and then intertwines those beliefs/ideas, back into standard Christian theology. Why???

I mean, it’s like taking one chapter out of a car parts manual, and then adding it to a manual, on how to fix washing machines…lol

So my question to you Christians out there is this….

Why do you base your beliefs, theology and doctrines, around the “Book of Revelations?”, when it’s a book that comes from Christian/Gnosticism, complete with secret codes and esoteric language, which are seeped in Gnostic traditions, specific to it’s own theology.


- JC

Can you offer some specific examples? What references in Revelation do you feel exhibit Gnostic beliefs and symbolism?

Revelation is rich in symbolism related to the Old Testament (will provide examples and links if needed). But for the time being, I'm interested in seeing your reasoning.

well id just like to throw a bit of a spoke in the wheel as my 2 cents to this thread.

what is gnosis? what is pagan? what is christian? where is israel? and who are the jews?

what if everything you believe was flipped around. everything you now perceive is in the opposite of what it really is

thus you call white, black and up, down.

just what if?

Originally posted by Joecroft

Christians!!!… Why do you base your beliefs, theology and doctrines, around the “Book of Revelations?”

Now I’m sure you all know that the “Book of Revelations”, comes from Christian Gnosticism, and was one of the last books, to be accepted into the bible. The language used, is deeply connected with Christian Gnosticism, as are much of its metaphors, symbols and esoteric motifs. How anyone, can hope to interpret such a book, without being prepared to embrace many aspects Christian Gnosticism, and other Gnostic beliefs, just seems bizarre to me?

And it’s seem to me like John’s other works, “The acts of John” and “The “Secret book of John” etc… to name just a few, have a huge impact, on trying to understand, the “Book of Revelations”, as do many other Christian/Gnostic texts.

Christianity has decided to classify all other Gnostic texts, as being heretical. And the one book it does accept, it interprets it, how it pleases, using a predominately literal fashion, with a dose of it’s own imagination thrown in, and then intertwines those beliefs/ideas, back into standard Christian theology. Why???

I mean, it’s like taking one chapter out of a car parts manual, and then adding it to a manual, on how to fix washing machines…lol

So my question to you Christians out there is this….

Why do you base your beliefs, theology and doctrines, around the “Book of Revelations?”, when it’s a book that comes from Christian/Gnosticism, complete with secret codes and esoteric language, which are seeped in Gnostic traditions, specific to it’s own theology.


- JC

I agree with Ashley. explain? also you ever read the book of daniel? Ezekiel? Isaiah? Psalms? Zachariah? Matthew,mark,luke,john? Epistles?? they ALL talk about End days.

Originally posted by 0mage
well id just like to throw a bit of a spoke in the wheel as my 2 cents to this thread.

what is gnosis? what is pagan? what is christian? where is israel? and who are the jews?

what if everything you believe was flipped around. everything you now perceive is in the opposite of what it really is

thus you call white, black and up, down.

just what if?

edit on 22-5-2012 by 0mage because: (no reason given)

i'm sure a dictionary can answer all that for you.

I don't base my beliefs around Revelations.
Yeah it's good to know, but I base my beliefs around what Jesus taught.
As do most Christians I believe.

reply to post by Joecroft


The book is Revelation. The revelations is what are contained in the book. A revelation reveals. For instance, Isaiah said this:

Isaiah 46:10

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

This is the key to unlocking one end of the Bible to the other. The fruit of knowledge in Genesis is technology. God provided a garden with perfected fruit (Technology that gives back to nature). We took that fruit and transmuted it into our own technology that kills the earth. To know the beginning, you must consult the end. The end tells of the mark of mankind as a number 666.

Revelation 13

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e - Or of Mankind] That number is 666.

Carbon has 6 electrons, 6 protons and 6 neutrons. The mark of mankind is that we are a carbon based life form. Our technology is also marked by carbon. Man is the beast to overcome in the book of Revelation. If you know the beginning from the end, you know the entire story. We must overcome with Word. The Word of God is spoken with nitrogen and oxygen.

Nitrogen is 777 and Oxygen is 888 on the periodic table. 777 is God's heptadic number as a mark on the Bible. 888 is Jesus is Greek Gematria. We are to overcome with the WORD.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Read the articles linked in my signature. I reveal the details of what I have said above in each article presented.

I base my belief on the revelation of my personal experience with God.

Originally posted by Keeper of Kheb

Originally posted by 0mage
well id just like to throw a bit of a spoke in the wheel as my 2 cents to this thread.

what is gnosis? what is pagan? what is christian? where is israel? and who are the jews?

what if everything you believe was flipped around. everything you now perceive is in the opposite of what it really is

thus you call white, black and up, down.

just what if?

edit on 22-5-2012 by 0mage because: (no reason given)

i'm sure a dictionary can answer all that for you.

humans

...

reply to post by AshleyD




Hey AshelyD


Thanks for your reply…


I haven’t seen a Mod, in like years lol

Originally posted by AshelyD
Can you offer some specific examples? What references in Revelation do you feel exhibit Gnostic beliefs and symbolism?

I’m not sure what you’re asking me to do, I mean, do want to prove that the “Book of Revelations” is a Christian Gnostic text?

I guess there are number of examples I could site, which come from Gnosticism and Christian Gnosticism. The “Acts of John” is an excellent example to begin with, and has a large number of similar motifs and symbolic language, which are also used in the “Book of Revelations”.

I’m kind of more interested in how Christians see this, rather than having to prove it, by examples. If I site an example, then we will probably just end up disagreeing with the example being presented. When my whole premise, is that in order to understand them better, we need to at least look at Christian Gnosticism, even if just from an academic viewpoint.

Christianity on the other hand, doesn’t do any of this with the “Book of Revelations” at all, and just bases its interpretations, on Ties to the OT, and Jesus words. Now I’m not saying those 2 things are bad or wrong, but IMO it’s just that it’s not enough, if where going to take the “Book of Revelations” seriously. Because similar language and ideas are used in the Gnostic texts, and in many of them, although it is still complex and secretly coded, and hard to interpret etc, they do/can help, to shed some light and understanding, on the “Book of Revelations.”


Now I’m not suggesting that people drop all aspects of Christianity and suddenly become Gnostic Christians, but what I am trying to point out, is that in order to get a better understanding of the language used in “Revelations”, and what some of the symbology might mean, then IMO people need, to some degree, analyze the original traditions, from where those languages/ideas stemmed from, i.e. Christian/Gnosticism. Of course in Christianity, this is seen as completely taboo, and to me, this just seems like a complete contradiction.

Christianity is essentially basing many of its beliefs around how it has interpreted the “Book of Revelations.”, without the aid of looking at, or accepting/considering the Gnostic texts, as a source important information.

Originally posted by AshelyD
Revelation is rich in symbolism related to the Old Testament (will provide examples and links if needed). But for the time being, I'm interested in seeing your reasoning.

Well, this is something in part, that I don’t deny; there are indeed a few symbolisms tied into the Old Testament, but IMO much of this tying in, is again, coming from standard Christian interpretations.


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft......Christian/Gnosticism. Of course in Christianity, this is seen as completely taboo, and to me, this just seems like a complete contradiction.

While thinkers and Christianity may seem prima facie a contradiction in terms I can assure you there are those of us who accept Jesus fully, but also embrace an openness to "other," as long as that other agrees with the truth set forth by Christ.

reply to post by Joecroft


lol Hi Joe.

I’m not sure what you’re asking me to do, I mean, do want to prove that the “Book of Revelations” is a Christian Gnostic text?

I guess there are number of examples I could site, which come from Gnosticism and Christian Gnosticism.

That is pretty much what I'm asking for. lol In order to see where you're coming from, I need you to cite some Gnostic theology or symbolism and then given an example where such is found Revelation. As in, 'The concept of 'XYZ' is a well known Gnostic principle and here we see a blatant scripture denoting 'XYZ' in Revelation.'

Otherwise, we won't know what you're referring to. Your thread just reads like a claim that Revelation is a Gnostic text but you do not explain why. Being that I have never heard this accusation, I'm not sure how to discuss it without examples of what you feel the problem is.

I have a feeling the premise is due to a misunderstanding of OT references that would seem unknown to us today, contextually. So if you provide examples to your premise, I can try to help explain things.

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by Joecroft

 

lol Hi Joe.

I’m not sure what you’re asking me to do, I mean, do want to prove that the “Book of Revelations” is a Christian Gnostic text?

I guess there are number of examples I could site, which come from Gnosticism and Christian Gnosticism.

That is pretty much what I'm asking for. lol In order to see where you're coming from, I need you to cite some Gnostic theology or symbolism and then given an example where such is found Revelation. As in, 'The concept of 'XYZ' is a well known Gnostic principle and here we see a blatant scripture denoting 'XYZ' in Revelation.'

Otherwise, we won't know what you're referring to. Your thread just reads like a claim that Revelation is a Gnostic text but you do not explain why. Being that I have never heard this accusation, I'm not sure how to discuss it without examples of what you feel the problem is.

I have a feeling the premise is due to a misunderstanding of OT references that would seem unknown to us today, contextually. So if you provide examples to your premise, I can try to help explain things.

Further, I usually find it better to start with cited definitions because perhaps my definition of something may be slightly or even wildly different than the person to whom I'm talking.

You're never going to get Christians to acknowledge Revelations as a gnostic text. The very idea that it could be allegorical, and talking about our inner battles, or our own higher consciousness, is anathema!

Plus, when you add in the idea that Jehovah/Yahweh is a lesser god(Demiurge) created by the Supreme God, you open a full can of worms.

Here is a brief look from the gnostic point of view of Revelations for those interested. Link

reply to post by Joecroft

. . . the “Book of Revelations”, comes from Christian Gnosticism . . .

I doubt that the Book of Revelation has anything to do with Gnosticism.
I read commentaries and books on Revelation constantly and I never see any statements like that. Of course I stick to academic type books that do not go off on tangents where the author can not support his claims.
The letters to the churches is what would put it into context as to who was distributing this book, and it would be the branch of Christianity that was strict on keeping the Old Testament taboo's.
The bulk of it seems to be more related to a manual of war and was a prediction of the downfall of the Roman Empire at the hands of their rival empire to the east.

Originally posted by jmdewey60 Of course I stick to academic type books that do not go off on tangents where the author can not support his claims.

You just lost 95% of the ATS readership.

reply to post by AshleyD


Hi there…

Originally posted by Joecroft
I’m not sure what you’re asking me to do, I mean, do want to prove that the “Book of Revelations” is a Christian Gnostic text?

I guess there are number of examples I could site, which come from Gnosticism and Christian Gnosticism.

Originally posted by AshelyD
That is pretty much what I'm asking for. lol

Yikes lol

Well, no one actually knows for sure who wrote the “Book of Revelations” and the same goes for the other supposed works by John, for example “The Acts of John” and “The Secret Revelation of John”, although the later 2 are both classified as Christian Gnostics texts, partly due to the theology, which is contained within them.

So that leaves us with a bit of a dilemma…Now we know that the early church was slow to accept the “Book of Revelations”, into the inclusion in the official canon. And the reason for this slowness, and why it was so close to being voted in, is because Origen (who was much acustomed to refuting the Christian Gnostics texts), described the book using, the term “antilegomena”. Antilegomena, was used to describe a text, that was iether disputed, or considered duboius, by the majority of the early Christian church.


I think it was regarded as “Antilegomena” because it has clear undertones and symbolic language, used in many other Christian Gnostics texts. And apart from that, I can’t see any other reason why it would be termed as such. The key difference between the “Book or Revelations” and the other 2 supposed works by John i.e. “The Acts of John” and “The Secret Revelation of John”, is that the Christian Gnostic theology is not so blatant in the“Book or Revelations” as it is in the other 2, which is probably one of the major reasons why it made it the bible.

So as you can see, there is no X marks the spot, or a link proving that the “The Book of Revelations” is a Christian Gnostic text… but IMO the signs are all there…

Originally posted by AshelyD
In order to see where you're coming from, I need you to cite some Gnostic theology or symbolism and then given an example where such is found Revelation. As in, 'The concept of 'XYZ' is a well known Gnostic principle and here we see a blatant scripture denoting 'XYZ' in Revelation.'

The book of Revelations uses the phrase “word of God”


Revelation 19:12-13

His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Source


and so does…

Extract from The Acts of John… verse 64…

Would that I had not now come home to my native place, I that have become an offence to a man ignorant of godliness! for if it were one who was filled with the word of God, he would not have gone to such a pitch of madness. But now (therefore) Lord, since I am become the occasion of a blow unto a soul devoid of knowledge, set me free from this chain and remove me unto thee quickly.

It might not seem like much, but this “Word of God”, phrase, is used quite a lot, in many Christian Gnostic texts.

The Secret Book of John (Apocryphon of John)[1] is a 2nd-century AD Sethian Gnostic Christian text of secret teachings.

Source


And…

From the secret book of John….

"And the archons created seven powers for themselves, and the powers created for themselves six angels for each one until they became 365 angels. And these are the bodies belonging with the names: the first is Athoth, a he has a sheep's face; the second is Eloaiou, he has a donkey's face; the third is Astaphaios, he has a hyena's face; the fourth is Yao, he has a serpent's face with seven heads; the fifth is Sabaoth, he has a dragon's face; the sixth is Adonin, he had a monkey's face; the seventh is Sabbede, he has a shining fire-face. This is the sevenness of the week.

Source


Continued….

reply to post by AshleyD


Continued….

And…

From the book of “Revelations”

Revelation 4:7-8
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’
who was, and is, and is to come.”

Source


Not exactly identical, but very similar in style and method…


And there’s also this…


From the “On the Origin of the World”

And before his mansion he created a throne, which was huge and was upon a four-faced chariot called "Cherubin". Now the Cherubin has eight shapes per each of the four corners, lion forms and calf forms and human forms and eagle forms, so that all the forms amount to sixty-four forms - and seven archangels that stand before it; he is the eighth, and has authority.

Source

From the wikipedia article…

On the Origin of the World is a Gnostic work dealing with creation and end times. It was found amongst the texts in the Nag Hammadi library, in Codex II and Codex XIII, immediately

Source



There are many more similarities that I could site…


Need I go any further…???


Now remember, I’m not looking to find out right now (perhaps maybe later on another thread) the meanings of these connections, and what the implications/interpretations are etc, which, although interesting, is not the point of this thread.

The only reason I have shown them is because you have asked me to, and because I just wanted to show, that there are connections/similarities between the “Book of Revelations”, and many other Christian/Gnostic texts.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


That's awfully loose evidence to be honest.

For instance, the phrase 'Word of God' is pretty generic and found throughout the Bible. Nothing about it makes it unique to Gnostic texts.

Evidence of the phrase 'Word of God' in the Bible.

As to the reference of the incredible creatures in heaven/around the throne. The same is found in the Old Testament, specifically in Ezekiel. And that certainly is not a Gnostic text.

Example:

I looked, and I saw beside the cherubim four wheels, one beside each of the cherubim; the wheels sparkled like topaz. 10 As for their appearance, the four of them looked alike; each was like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 11 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the cherubim faced; the wheels did not turn about as the cherubim went. The cherubim went in whatever direction the head faced, without turning as they went. 12 Their entire bodies, including their backs, their hands and their wings, were completely full of eyes, as were their four wheels. 13 I heard the wheels being called “the whirling wheels.” 14 Each of the cherubim had four faces: One face was that of a cherub, the second the face of a human being, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

Verse

So those correlations are pretty loose and not specifically Gnostic.

The Book of Revelation is definitely 'trippy' for those who are not familiar with the apocalyptic imagery used. But it is all based off of OT references and idioms. I don't see how it would be Gnostic. Once the symbolism is researched, it is extremely fascinating.

The stuff you posted in no way helped me to interpret anything in Revelation. Could you please explain, specifically, how one would use the gnostic texts to interpret Revelation. I'm very much open to the idea, but your evidence is lacking right now. Thanks