Is love Iogical ?

reply to post by Wonders


And my entire post...

"LOL - what i have lied about?

You know nothing about me, my background, how deep my faith is... yet you choose to judge me on a post that you didn’t even understand in the first place.

Judge not, that ye be not judged

I am a Christian... and I have many many faults... I sin every day, make mistakes, say things i shouldn’t... No person is perfect but those that think they are, are the probably the furthest from God.

I see it all the time in many Christians... claiming to be christlike while looking down their noses at the people who can’t recite the bible from begging to end... cannot have a conversation without throwing some scripter in, just to prove how pious they are. Not realising that all they are doing is demonstrating their own pride and arrogance. It’s sad really.

Scribes and pharisees my friend... scribes and pharisees!"

Was dismissed with...

Well, I don't consider myself a Christian, nor do I side with any religion. I do believe God lives and sees the heart.

1 John 3:4-10

Sorry but that is just rude... you basically swotted away my points like you would a fly.

You then go on to say...

How can I assume that you love God first and foremost when you've just shown me how lightly you regard the Word?

How very arrogant and self righteous of you... You admit you do not know me and then go on to say this.

I view the word differently to you... but i do not view it lightly...

And i take it this is because i said...

Also, with a subject such as this there is no real right and wrong... all people can say is what’s in their heart at the moment of asking... unless, of course, they rely totally on logic and will then give you the exact same answer every time. Which kind of reinforces my initial post.

You then countered with...

I'm sorry, but I firmly disagree, there is a "real right and wrong", it's when people start to think that they've learned everything they need to know that they stop searching for the truth when the little "innocent misunderstandings" happen. The OP said God, four times, this subject very much includes God.

Again you completely miss my point...

The title of the thread is "is Love Logical?"

I am referring to this question... which can be viewed in many different ways by different people... that is the beauty of humanity... our ability to think and re-think... to question not just others but ourselves... It was a nice deep thread that i was enjoying participating in and you come along and question my faith... the core of my existence... I never said anything wrong, hurtful of deceitful in my post but you choose to attack me personally because you didn’t even understand the points i was making.

There is a definite air of smugness to many of your posts... and hypocrisy... the main difference between me and you is i admit to my sins.

I say again, the bible is not a punishment stick to hit people with... Jesus preached love... and it is not our place to judge others... You can say what you think, that’s fine, but you say it in a way that declares yourself as some kind of oracle for truth when in reality you retort without even understanding what you first heard.

Peace

reply to post by Muckster

Thank you! I'm very glad that you responded! I know you felt personally attacked but please understand that if someone else other than you had said what you said, I would have responded to them in the same manner as I have to you, not because I know everything but because I speak of what I think I know based on my understanding of it, so naturally what I come to believe and say will evolve if I am in search of the truth because the truth is not handed to us in one lump sum, we are guided into it when we search for it with all of our hearts and that is what I am trying to do, seeing as how God has not allowed me to die yet gets me thinking maybe there is a chance for me to stop doing dirty work. I do not believe in coincidence and therefore I believe that God had in mind that I can learn from you.

From what I've read, the Word of God is like a weapon, for tearing down strongholds that shackle us to lies.
I am not a Christian because I am a sinner, I do not know God but I want to but it's very much likely that I won't be able because Jesus said that many will try to enter the kingdom of heaven but will not be able. I don't want to be a sinner and I believe that Jesus came to set us free from our sins by giving us the truth and we, by knowing the truth can practice what Jesus teaches.
My beef with Christianity is that I have been led to believe that Christians are those who believe that it is impossible to stop sinning, that each of us are born to sin on the daily until we die, which is another reason that I do not consider myself a Christian because I believe that with Jesus aka The Truth, said that it IS possible to stop sinning, else why would Jesus tell people to stop sinning if it were impossible?
I'm glad you caught that "dirty work" misquotation, but is salvation good work if we don't have any incentive to spread God's Word or how can we do good work if we don't use our God given logic to try to understand the Word? That is basically the reason I called you out, because I took your initial post to mean that you thought that God/love, is illogical, which I still don't quite understand because Jesus said that more understanding would be given to those with little understanding who seek for more understanding.
You say that I am quoting the bible for the wrong reasons, can I ask, since you seem to know my reasons, what are they? Pride? And how can I be proud since I think about suicide often? I know it's not very logical to do so but the thought does occur more than I'd like.
The way I see it, understanding the word can help me to make it possible for me to live righteously, which is what I want. What good can I do at the present, since a bad tree can not bear good fruit. So I thought at least maybe I could share that which I know to be good, which is the Word. I never did say that I was righteous, and I when you said, "Can a blind person not be pious." I thought that you meant, can a spiritually blind person not act piously? I thought it was a rhetorical question. That's very cool of Eli to be so close to God by the way.

I believe in seeking forgiveness, but I also am a big believer that we can not be forgiven if we do not forgive others, another reason I think about suicide, it is very hard for me to completely forgive those who continually assult me verbally and emotionally on a daily basis, not people here on ATS but people I am around on a daily, ie family members. I mean what good is my sustinence if I am incapable of bearing good fruit since I believe that sin leads to death anyway, why not cut myself off and stop prolonging the ineviteable since I believe the bible to be true but can not bear good fruit? I hope you understand what I'm saying here. I have asked God to kill me many times and be done with me if it is impossible for me to obey His commands/love Him/know Him.
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be with us forever. So that to me means to me that if I was conscious of the Holy Spirit being inside me at one point, that according to what Jesus said, the Holy Spirit is still there, with me forever, guiding me in to all truth so long as I continually seek the truth, seek and find, if I seek Him with all my heart.
I am obsessed with God and the bible, I do my best to make sense of it because it is worth looking into because I know without a doubt in my heart that God is very much real and I would rather die than live a life of sin, which brings me back to the thoughts of suicide. I honestly can not say whether I eventually will or won't ever but honestly the urges are there. I know it likely isn't in God's will that I do, I can't say what became of Samson when he sacrficed himself to end the lives of others.
As the Psalms scripture you shared It does me no good to merely confess that I am a sinner unless I confess and turn from them. Continued on next.

reply to post by Muckster

Alright first of all I'm sorry for such a long and pitiful post, which failed to address your points yet again but I'll try.
I know I am foolish. Ecclesiastes 5:3 As a dream comes when there are many cares, so the speech of a fool when there are many words.
I know that you know that no weapon formed against those who are in Christ will prosper so this isn't about me tearing down those who know God because I wouldn't want to and it isn't even possible.
I chose you to speak to because either you can help me or continue to call me a proud pharisee. Please be aware that you are not the only one to consider me as like a pharisee, I myself have compared myself to them but in my understanding even Jesus was seen as proud and blastphemous and was even socked in the face for speaking to a priest irreverently, this doesn't excuse my behavior at all but leaves me unsure as to how to behave towards those who believe that it's impossible to stop sinning.
As you referenenced in Proverbs 28:13, confessing sins is necessary, but afterwards it is necessary to turn from them. I'm struggling to.
Jeremiah 13:23 says Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
So what I need to do is grow unaccustomed to doing evil by growing accustomed to doing good.
How can I do that when all that other believers do is point out how pharisee-like I am, I know I am pharisee-like, and frankly it's refreshing to meet someone who isn't afraid of confrontation and who cares to explain their points.
I don't merely want people to tell me that I'm like a scribe and pharisee, that I'm proud and arrogant and self-righteous when I don't consider myself righeous at all, wasn't it already apparent that I am not righteous. The bible says that we are known by our fruits so we aren't fooling anyone but ourselves if we think that sinning on the daily is righteous living. I believe in working towards righteousness, not attaining sainhood immediately but it's disheartening when all believers do is show me my faults and tell me how sad my life is.
Maybe being called those things isn't hurtful to you but it sure doesn't feel like love and encouragement to me.
I just don't get how love is simple, especially in light of the scripture I shared about simpletons loving simplicity.
Can you see where I am coming from now? If not then feel free to tell me what you think and don't worry.
I guess the gist of this whole love is illogical buisness has to do with what Jesus said:
John 3:8 "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Just thought I would add this…

The word “Logos” is from the Greek language, and refers to logic, that is used to support a claim through reasoning, and knowledge.

The following words are also conncted to the meaning of Logos, “opinion", "expectation", "speech," "account," "reason," etc…

And finally, Logos also means "Word", and as we know, Jesus is the “Word” in the bible, and when people come to believe in Jesus and receive the “Holy Spirit”, it brings with it knowdedge, wisdom and understanding, which are also crucial elements of the “Logos”

So IMO, God is both pure Love, and pure Logic…


- JC

To me, there is no way that love could be logical. When you try to think about love, what is there to think about? There's not even a very accurate definition of what love is, other than to say that it is a "feeling." Feelings are never logical.

I think love is very logical, as it is nature's way of keeping people together, that benifit from staying together( parent, child, partners etc).

reply to post by Wonders



What an honest, humbling, polite and love filled post... thank you.

What i have to say next is probably best in a more private surrondings so i am going to send you a private U2U.

Peace

reply to post by Wonders


I couldn’t help but notice your conversation with Muckster above, and I felt compelled to say a few words…

Originally posted by Wonders
I am not a Christian because I am a sinner, I do not know God but I want to but it's very much likely that I won't be able because Jesus said that many will try to enter the kingdom of heaven but will not be able.

You say you don’t know God, and yet you quote Jesus so much…don’t you know that by coming to know Jesus, that you come to know God also? Jesus in that verse about “the kingdom of heaven”, was talking about those who don’t really know him, but it seems to me like you do know him.

Originally posted by Wonders
My beef with Christianity is that I have been led to believe that Christians are those who believe that it is impossible to stop sinning, that each of us are born to sin on the daily until we die, which is another reason that I do not consider myself a Christian because I believe that with Jesus aka The Truth, said that it IS possible to stop sinning, else why would Jesus tell people to stop sinning if it were impossible?

I’m not sure if all Christians think it’s impossible to stop sinning, maybe some do, and maybe some don’t. I think Jesus says those words because he has the highest expectations for us. But IMO coming to believe in Jesus, is about trying to walk a righteous path with Gods help, but also knowing that we might not always be able to live up to it.

In other words, it’s not about us becoming perfect over night, it’s about us aiming for the best we can, with God at our sides, helping us, and guiding us through it. So if a person try’s not to sin, but falls anyway, then only God will know for sure, who has genuinely tried and who has not, because He is in the best position to judge.

And even those who deliberately sinned and then asked for forgiveness; God will know if they are genuine in their repentance, because he sees directly into our hearts. And even those who aren’t genuine, God will still try to help them by showing them a better way, or by teaching them something they need to learn.

Originally posted by Wonders
I believe in seeking forgiveness, but I also am a big believer that we can not be forgiven if we do not forgive others, another reason I think about suicide, it is very hard for me to completely forgive those who continually assult me verbally and emotionally on a daily basis, not people here on ATS but people I am around on a daily, ie family members.

Originally posted by Wonders
I am obsessed with God and the bible, I do my best to make sense of it because it is worth looking into because I know without a doubt in my heart that God is very much real and I would rather die than live a life of sin, which brings me back to the thoughts of suicide.

It was your 2 posts above, that concerned me the most. You quote Jesus, and yet you say you don’t know God, but you do know God, and God knows you. God has given you the gift of life, and has even saved your life twice! Now is not the time to be giving up.

And I don’t know what’s going on in your family life right now, but I think you should sit down with your family, and tell them how you feel about stuff, or maybe even talk to a close friend. In fact, you could even set up a thread here on ATS, there are tons of wonderful posters here, who can offer you all kinds of help and advice. Just remember, what ever you’re going through, you’re not alone, and God is with you always.

Originally posted by Wonders
I hope you understand what I'm saying here. I have asked God to kill me many times and be done with me if it is impossible for me to obey His commands/love Him/know Him.

God won’t ever kill you…How can you pray for such things?…God is pure love, it’s just not in his nature, to do those things you ask of him.

God is really here to help us with our sins, and this is done by entering into a relationship with him, when we come to receive the “Holy Spirit”. And we receive the “Holy Spirit” by putting our trust in who Jesus says he is.

Here are a few verses, from John 14, but I recommend reading the entire passage…

John 14:15-17
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth...

John 14:26-27
26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Peace be with you...


- JC

reply to post by randyvs


Love can't be weighed... even a small measure is a heavy burden while at the same time so uplifting it is inspirational

Is it logic? No, it is manifest destiny

if we have it in us

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

To me, there is no way that love could be logical. When you try to think about love, what is there to think about? There's not even a very accurate definition of what love is, other than to say that it is a "feeling." Feelings are never logical.

Wait what ? You said there isn't an accurate definition of what love is ? My fellow member, I have a definition of what love is.

Love
To care about the health, well being of body and mind. And life, both physical and spiritual, of someone else more than your own.

When the prospect of a life without a certain person is so horrible. That it becomes a natural reaction, absent of all thought, requiring no decision at all, you would lay down all of your own. To save all or any of theirs.

It is to care for someone else more than you care for yourself ? Simply put, someone you would die for.

Do you know anyone like that ?

Jesus does.

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by Wonders

 

You say you don’t know God, and yet you quote Jesus so much…don’t you know that by coming to know Jesus, that you come to know God also? Jesus in that verse about “the kingdom of heaven”, was talking about those who don’t really know him, but it seems to me like you do know him.

I’m not sure if all Christians think it’s impossible to stop sinning, maybe some do, and maybe some don’t. I think Jesus says those words because he has the highest expectations for us. But IMO coming to believe in Jesus, is about trying to walk a righteous path with Gods help, but also knowing that we might not always be able to live up to it.

In other words, it’s not about us becoming perfect over night, it’s about us aiming for the best we can, with God at our sides, helping us, and guiding us through it. So if a person try’s not to sin, but falls anyway, then only God will know for sure, who has genuinely tried and who has not, because He is in the best position to judge.

And even those who deliberately sinned and then asked for forgiveness; God will know if they are genuine in their repentance, because he sees directly into our hearts. And even those who aren’t genuine, God will still try to help them by showing them a better way, or by teaching them something they need to learn.

It was your 2 posts above, that concerned me the most. You quote Jesus, and yet you say you don’t know God, but you do know God, and God knows you. God has given you the gift of life, and has even saved your life twice! Now is not the time to be giving up.

And I don’t know what’s going on in your family life right now, but I think you should sit down with your family, and tell them how you feel about stuff, or maybe even talk to a close friend. In fact, you could even set up a thread here on ATS, there are tons of wonderful posters here, who can offer you all kinds of help and advice. Just remember, what ever you’re going through, you’re not alone, and God is with you always.

Originally posted by Wonders
I hope you understand what I'm saying here. I have asked God to kill me many times and be done with me if it is impossible for me to obey His commands/love Him/know Him.

God won’t ever kill you…How can you pray for such things?…God is pure love, it’s just not in his nature, to do those things you ask of him.

God is really here to help us with our sins, and this is done by entering into a relationship with him, when we come to receive the “Holy Spirit”. And we receive the “Holy Spirit” by putting our trust in who Jesus says he is.

Here are a few verses, from John 14, but I recommend reading the entire passage…

John 14:15-17
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth...

John 14:26-27
26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Response to 1st paragraph.I do believe that those who know Jesus know God also, but hearing the Word is different from understanding it, and understanding the Word and adhering to the Word are two different things, it does me no good to hear Jesus if I don't practice what Jesus taught. When the Holy Spirt came down like a dove onto Jesus and God said, "This is My son in whom I am well pleased", right after that Jesus was driven by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan. Satan knows scripture, sure he used it out of context to try to decieve Jesus but I think that after ALL THESE YEARS, Satan has a pretty good understanding of Scripture, he just doesn't obey it. How can Satan decieve if he doesn't know how to lead people away from the truth if he doesn't even know what the truth is? Hearing scripture alone does not make one righteous, understandng scripture without obeying it does not make one righteous.
Response to 2nd paragraph. I agree.
Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.
I have to go for now brb.

Love is logical, very logical, but only to us at ATS because we deny ignorance. Really if you don't have love you are nothing but a hater, and a hater is a liar to all people, a snake.

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by Wonders

 

In other words, it’s not about us becoming perfect over night, it’s about us aiming for the best we can, with God at our sides, helping us, and guiding us through it. So if a person try’s not to sin, but falls anyway, then only God will know for sure, who has genuinely tried and who has not, because He is in the best position to judge.

And even those who deliberately sinned and then asked for forgiveness; God will know if they are genuine in their repentance, because he sees directly into our hearts. And even those who aren’t genuine, God will still try to help them by showing them a better way, or by teaching them something they need to learn.

Originally posted by Wonders
I believe in seeking forgiveness, but I also am a big believer that we can not be forgiven if we do not forgive others, another reason I think about suicide, it is very hard for me to completely forgive those who continually assult me verbally and emotionally on a daily basis, not people here on ATS but people I am around on a daily, ie family members.

Originally posted by Wonders
I am obsessed with God and the bible, I do my best to make sense of it because it is worth looking into because I know without a doubt in my heart that God is very much real and I would rather die than live a life of sin, which brings me back to the thoughts of suicide.

It was your 2 posts above, that concerned me the most. You quote Jesus, and yet you say you don’t know God, but you do know God, and God knows you. God has given you the gift of life, and has even saved your life twice! Now is not the time to be giving up.

And I don’t know what’s going on in your family life right now, but I think you should sit down with your family, and tell them how you feel about stuff, or maybe even talk to a close friend. In fact, you could even set up a thread here on ATS, there are tons of wonderful posters here, who can offer you all kinds of help and advice. Just remember, what ever you’re going through, you’re not alone, and God is with you always.

Originally posted by Wonders
I hope you understand what I'm saying here. I have asked God to kill me many times and be done with me if it is impossible for me to obey His commands/love Him/know Him.

God won’t ever kill you…How can you pray for such things?…God is pure love, it’s just not in his nature, to do those things you ask of him.

God is really here to help us with our sins, and this is done by entering into a relationship with him, when we come to receive the “Holy Spirit”. And we receive the “Holy Spirit” by putting our trust in who Jesus says he is.

Here are a few verses, from John 14, but I recommend reading the entire passage…

I know my heart, and I know it's not about us becoming perfect overnight, and I agree, He is in the best position to judge me, but according to Jesus, I know who I am by the fruit I bear, Jesus said:
"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged." -John 16:8-11

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.

John 15:24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.

I know that God knows about me just as I can know about him, but two can't walk together unless they agree.
A sparrow can't fall to the groud without God knowing about it, and we are more valuable than sparrows.
Let me put it to you this way, I can know about Barak Obama, but to personally know him is a different matter entirely wouldn't you say?
I will continue to study the bible, old and new testaments. I believe that extreme hardships are coming, the beginning of woes, and it behooves me to digest as much of the Word as possible, to make myself ready, to have enough oil for my lamp.
It is a personal endeavor, one in which next to no one supports, to not praise God with my lips alone but in deed and in truth. Jesus said, beware of the yeast of the pharisees .