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Time to take the gun from the American public!
page: 44share:
reply to post by BenReclused
Many thanks
Daughters can turn a easy going man into an window licking idiot overnight
But i digress
It seems this thread has two factions
The first being that Americans have firearms which is a foundation of the constition of the USA this will never change
The second being bleeding heart liberlarists think that abjectives are a better form of self defence or defending your family from harm
In the UK the average criminal-junkie carries a knife in the US its a firearm so stop attacking our american friends
Because words are and never will be a form of self defence
Sticks and Stones may break may bones but
Bullit - Knife holes will certainly kill you
Its time to man up liberalists instead of trying to protect yourselves with
Words and limp cucumbers
Cran
I got a kick out of your comment about cleaning firearms.
Many thanks
Daughters can turn a easy going man into an window licking idiot overnight
But i digress
It seems this thread has two factions
The first being that Americans have firearms which is a foundation of the constition of the USA this will never change
The second being bleeding heart liberlarists think that abjectives are a better form of self defence or defending your family from harm
In the UK the average criminal-junkie carries a knife in the US its a firearm so stop attacking our american friends
Because words are and never will be a form of self defence
Sticks and Stones may break may bones but
Bullit - Knife holes will certainly kill you
Its time to man up liberalists instead of trying to protect yourselves with
Words and limp cucumbers
Cran
Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
It always amazes me how Americans just dont get it when it comes to guns, despite the fact its legal for most of you to carry weapons for "safety" you have by far and away the highest number of gun deaths in the world. More even than all those backward barbaric African countries where killing the next tribe is an acceptable practice.
....
Yet another person who doesn't know what he/she is talking about...
First of all, the states with most gun deaths, and the most violent ones are the ones which have heavily restricted citizens from owning firearms, or firearms are banned...
Second of all, most criminals find their weapons ILLEGALLY, because MOST criminals already have a long list of crimes they have committed and cannot buy a legal firearm.
All this BS about "how easy it is to get firearms" is nothing more than BS. There can be SOME exceptions, but only people who have no criminal backgrounds are able to get legal firearms, and that's the way it should be.
Before you buy a firearm, the dealer has to do a quick background check to see if you have committed any crimes.
BTW, in case you missed it...
The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By James Slack
Last updated at 12:14 AM on 3rd July 2009
Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.
Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.
The Tories said Labour had presided over a decade of spiralling violence.
In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.
The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:
The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.
But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.
In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ec48b7553e41.jpg[/atsimg]
The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.
Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This is a damning indictment of this government's comprehensive failure over more than a decade to tackle the deep rooted social problems in our society, and the knock on effect on crime and anti-social behaviour.
www.dailymail.co.uk...
You ban citizens from owning firearms and ONLY CRIMINALS will have firearms...
Crimes in general, and even crimes with handguns have INCREASED in the UK since the handgun ban...
Originally posted by kerazeesicko
Originally posted by Skewed
Then in that scenario, the coasts would be flooded with citizens just waiting for the ships to unload. It would be another Normandy beach scenario. We would win, because there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.
You are assuming that every single American would fight with you. Let us say there are millions of guns out there...any number..let us say 30 million..let us say that the gun owners each have multiple guns at least ten guns...that means that only 3, 000, 000 Americans have guns. Even less Americans the more one American has. How about a small group who stockpiles weapons...the numbers would shrink.
ROTLMAO ...there are 80MILLION gun "owners".
reply to post by captainnotsoobvious
I've travelled all over these United States, from the west coast to the Mississippi, from the Canadian border to the Mexican border, oddly enough, it was in large cities that have some what stricter laws concerning firearms that I felt unsafe at all, and that not very... In rural areas? Not in the slightest, ever.
Why is that, I wonder? Could it be that most, infact let me practice a little over the top hyperbole and say the vast majority approaching all of 'em, Americans are, in fact not homicidal as you so gleefully imply.
I own four firearms, shotgun, two rifles, and a handgun...and plan to own several more when finances allow... Why? Because I can. Why? Because I appreciate the skill required to be proficient in their use, and the discipline required to attain that proficiency. Why? Because I hunt. Why? Because older firearms are not only functional tools, but are pieces of artwork in many cases... Why? Because there are, most unfortunately, rather ugly folks out there who believe that they are entitled, and allowed, to take what isn't theirs to take... I feel a need to have a counter argument close to hand in the event these miscreants decide to target me, or mine. My shotgun and hand gun will go a long ways towards making that happen.
Any of those reasons, and probably more, are more than sufficient reason to own firearms. You don't like it? I'm sorry about that, but not very...
One needn't be a homicidal maniac to own, be skilled in their use, and be appreciative of the artistry involved, to want a gun.
I've travelled all over these United States, from the west coast to the Mississippi, from the Canadian border to the Mexican border, oddly enough, it was in large cities that have some what stricter laws concerning firearms that I felt unsafe at all, and that not very... In rural areas? Not in the slightest, ever.
Why is that, I wonder? Could it be that most, infact let me practice a little over the top hyperbole and say the vast majority approaching all of 'em, Americans are, in fact not homicidal as you so gleefully imply.
I own four firearms, shotgun, two rifles, and a handgun...and plan to own several more when finances allow... Why? Because I can. Why? Because I appreciate the skill required to be proficient in their use, and the discipline required to attain that proficiency. Why? Because I hunt. Why? Because older firearms are not only functional tools, but are pieces of artwork in many cases... Why? Because there are, most unfortunately, rather ugly folks out there who believe that they are entitled, and allowed, to take what isn't theirs to take... I feel a need to have a counter argument close to hand in the event these miscreants decide to target me, or mine. My shotgun and hand gun will go a long ways towards making that happen.
Any of those reasons, and probably more, are more than sufficient reason to own firearms. You don't like it? I'm sorry about that, but not very...
One needn't be a homicidal maniac to own, be skilled in their use, and be appreciative of the artistry involved, to want a gun.
Originally posted by captainnotsoobvious
The rest of the world is just fine without their populous being heavily armed. Only America feels the need to define itself through the gun. As far as I can tell American democracy hasn't been protected at all by guns, though they have managed to kill 10s of thousands of innocent people...
America has a kind of mental illness when it comes to guns...
Another ignorant person... Care to post EVIDENCE that 10s of thousand of innocent people have been murdered by guns in the U.S?... Because the contrary is the truth. UP to 1-2 million INNOCENT people have been able to defend themselves against criminals with legal firearms every year...
www.fff.org...
edit on 5-4-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)
reply to post by captainnotsoobvious
And once again you "cherry pick" by only showing deaths caused by firearms:
If you weren't so damn dishonest, you would have shown stats that also included other causes of childhood deaths.
These are also much more recent:
Selected Causes of Death, Ages 0-19, per 100,000 Population (2007)
Total by Natural Causes= 36,272
by Perinatal Conditions= 14,570
by Congenital Anomalies= 6,896
by Neoplasms= 2,302
by Respiratory Disease= 1,442
by Circulatory Disease= 1,666
by Nervous Sys. Disease= 1,609
by SIDS= 2,453
Total by Unintentional Injury=11,560
by Motor Vehicle= 6,683
by Drowning= 1,056
by Fire/Burn= 544
by Poisoning= 972
by Suffocation/Strangulation= 1,263
by Firearm= 138
Total by Homicide= 3,345
by Firearm= 2,186
by Other Means= 1,159
Total Suicides= 1,665
by Firearm= 683
by Suffocation/Strangulation= 739
by Poisoning= 133
Source
Looking at those numbers, it seems that far more lives would be saved by proper prenatal care, responsible driving, and by adults properly supervising their children, than by taking firearms away from law abiding citizens.
See ya,
Milt
And once again you "cherry pick" by only showing deaths caused by firearms:
In 1999, 3,385 children and youth ages 0-19 years were killed with a gun. This includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional injuries.
This is equivalent to about 9 deaths per day, a figure commonly used by journalists.
The 3,385 firearms-related deaths for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:
214 unintentional
1,078 suicides
1,990 homicides
83 for which the intent could not be determined
20 due to legal intervention
Of the total firearms-related deaths:
73 were of children under five years old
416 were children 5-14 years old
2,896 were 15-19 years old
wiki.answers.com...
If you weren't so damn dishonest, you would have shown stats that also included other causes of childhood deaths.
These are also much more recent:
Selected Causes of Death, Ages 0-19, per 100,000 Population (2007)
Total by Natural Causes= 36,272
by Perinatal Conditions= 14,570
by Congenital Anomalies= 6,896
by Neoplasms= 2,302
by Respiratory Disease= 1,442
by Circulatory Disease= 1,666
by Nervous Sys. Disease= 1,609
by SIDS= 2,453
Total by Unintentional Injury=11,560
by Motor Vehicle= 6,683
by Drowning= 1,056
by Fire/Burn= 544
by Poisoning= 972
by Suffocation/Strangulation= 1,263
by Firearm= 138
Total by Homicide= 3,345
by Firearm= 2,186
by Other Means= 1,159
Total Suicides= 1,665
by Firearm= 683
by Suffocation/Strangulation= 739
by Poisoning= 133
Source
Looking at those numbers, it seems that far more lives would be saved by proper prenatal care, responsible driving, and by adults properly supervising their children, than by taking firearms away from law abiding citizens.
See ya,
Milt
After reading a few of the comments I got this idea stuck in my head, If there are no more guns on the streets, why do cops still need them? Why would
they need to carry lethal weapons to subdue citizens that don't have guns. Shouldn't they put down all projectile weapons and rely on non-lethal
techniques (that means no tasers as well).
Pay attention to the July 2012 UN Arms Trade Treaty.
The negotiations have already begun and much of it will take place behind closed doors. Small arms are targeted in these negotiations. If you hold our Second Amendment near and dear, pay attention to what is going on in the UN in the next few weeks.
Considering our current president's attitude regarding our Constitution, his questionable position of putting UN first over congress (call to mind Panetta's recent statements before Congress), and the eagerness to grab power by the anti-gun progressives, your firearms will be subject to international law should Obama sign this treaty and the Senate ratify it. Now is not the time to give an inch on this.
The negotiations have already begun and much of it will take place behind closed doors. Small arms are targeted in these negotiations. If you hold our Second Amendment near and dear, pay attention to what is going on in the UN in the next few weeks.
Considering our current president's attitude regarding our Constitution, his questionable position of putting UN first over congress (call to mind Panetta's recent statements before Congress), and the eagerness to grab power by the anti-gun progressives, your firearms will be subject to international law should Obama sign this treaty and the Senate ratify it. Now is not the time to give an inch on this.
You know all that liberal "greater good" crap postulates that if you disarm the citizens,maybe 20% will fall victim to violent crime when they are
unable to defend themselves against stronger better armed attackers but that's ok because it's for the " greater good"of all that everyone(honest)
be disarmed.....but since I don't want to be(or see any reason why I should be) part of that 20%,the "greater good" can stick it where the sun
don't shine
Originally posted by queenofswords
your firearms will be subject to international law should Obama sign this treaty and the Senate ratify it.
No, they won't. Unconstitutional is unconstitutional. It can't be enforced in the US because it is counter to already established US law - i,e, the Second Amendment. They would have to repeal that Amendment first.
No doubt they will try to do an end run around the Constitution, and offer all means of arcane arguments and twisted logic in order to justify it, but the bottom line is two words uttered by King Leonidas at Thermopylae to the Persians - "Molon labe."
Come and get them.
reply to post by queenofswords
The head money case is where to start in determining how foreign treaties are integrated into US law. SCOTUS in that case ruled foreign treaties are subordinate to the constitution. It also noted that no foreign treaties can remove or bestow any authority that is not specifically granted / prohibited by the Constitution.
As far as the second amendment goes -
District of Columbia v. Heller
and
McDonald v. Chicago
The second amendment is applied to the individual. The only way that guns are going away would be to remove / edit the 2nd amendment and I dont see that happening at all at any point in the foreseeable future.
Any foreign treaty the US signs makes that treaty a part of the Federal body of law. Because of that those treaties can be defined by the courts / congress in terms of legality and constitutionality.
The UN is not a world government.
The UN is not a legislative body.
The UN is not a democratic institution.
The UN answers to no one
The UN has broken its own ban on north Korea by providing them with advanced computers.
The UN does not have the authority to direct a person to the bathroom, let alone dictate domestic laws.
The attitude of the UN is a perfect example of why citizens should have the right to bear arms. If the UN insists then I say the City of new York should tow all their cars who have outstanding citations. Once those cars are moved the moving trucks can get close to clear out the UN and send them all back to their respective countries.
The UN building then can be converted into a homeless shelter with job skill / assistance programs to help our citizens get back to work.
It would be a better and more productive use of that building than what its being used for now.
The head money case is where to start in determining how foreign treaties are integrated into US law. SCOTUS in that case ruled foreign treaties are subordinate to the constitution. It also noted that no foreign treaties can remove or bestow any authority that is not specifically granted / prohibited by the Constitution.
As far as the second amendment goes -
District of Columbia v. Heller
and
McDonald v. Chicago
The second amendment is applied to the individual. The only way that guns are going away would be to remove / edit the 2nd amendment and I dont see that happening at all at any point in the foreseeable future.
Any foreign treaty the US signs makes that treaty a part of the Federal body of law. Because of that those treaties can be defined by the courts / congress in terms of legality and constitutionality.
The UN is not a world government.
The UN is not a legislative body.
The UN is not a democratic institution.
The UN answers to no one
The UN has broken its own ban on north Korea by providing them with advanced computers.
The UN does not have the authority to direct a person to the bathroom, let alone dictate domestic laws.
The attitude of the UN is a perfect example of why citizens should have the right to bear arms. If the UN insists then I say the City of new York should tow all their cars who have outstanding citations. Once those cars are moved the moving trucks can get close to clear out the UN and send them all back to their respective countries.
The UN building then can be converted into a homeless shelter with job skill / assistance programs to help our citizens get back to work.
It would be a better and more productive use of that building than what its being used for now.
reply to post by lacrimaererum
The problem is not the "gun culture", as you put it, nor do our kids grow up with such. Contrary to popular opinion, our citizens do not carry side arms everywhere they go. I feel the real problem is the way violence is glorified in magazines, on the idiot box, at movie theaters, and in rap music. That's the only thing that can realistically explain this steady increase in violence. These days you just aren't cool unless you look, dress, and act like a "gangsta'". In other words it's not the weapon used, but the mentality that's encouraged.
Perhaps not, but if legal firearm ownership were truly responsible for violence in this country, we would have been at the top of this list. As it is, we didn't even rate in the top 37. You will, however, find many countries with very strict gun control laws shown in that very top 37.
Very true! It's also about much, much, more than firearms, and gun control. It's about a total disregard, and lack of concern, for the lives of others.
You are wrong. You already have. Originally I thought your motivation was out of arrogance. Now I know that you are genuinely concerned.
I am a skeptic by nature. Contrary to popular opinion on this site, skeptics ARE THE ONLY ONES with a propensity to question EVERY DAMN THING.
Yes they have, but it's not interesting. In fact, that's nothing but the bravado that seems to be encouraged so much these days. They should feel ashamed of themselves. I know I do. Responsible gun owners do not brag about owning firearms, nor do they make threats about what they might do with them. That is, indeed, part of the problem we are discussing.
Perhaps you do now. It's nothing but foolishness. If I had acted that way when I was a kid, my father wouldn't have let me go anywhere near a BB gun, much less a handgun, rifle, or shotgun.
Considering many of the responses you recieved, I can understand why. Responsible ownership is not about fear though. It's truly about being prepared IF the need arises. Most of us will never experience that need. The United States isn't near as dangerous as it's often portrayed. The same is true of most of the countries in this old World. I can say that from experience. I spent my first 18 years living in five different countries.
Obsessed people are always dangerous! That is likely the only thing the shooters you posted about had in common. OBSESSED PEOPLE SHOULD NOT OWN GUNS!
Cheers to ya,
Milt
PS:
It's fine to call me Milt. That's my real name.
Why are people happy to have their kids grow up in gun culture like this?
The problem is not the "gun culture", as you put it, nor do our kids grow up with such. Contrary to popular opinion, our citizens do not carry side arms everywhere they go. I feel the real problem is the way violence is glorified in magazines, on the idiot box, at movie theaters, and in rap music. That's the only thing that can realistically explain this steady increase in violence. These days you just aren't cool unless you look, dress, and act like a "gangsta'". In other words it's not the weapon used, but the mentality that's encouraged.
I am not interested in all the stats you can throw at me about list of murders per head of population. Its about much more than this.
Perhaps not, but if legal firearm ownership were truly responsible for violence in this country, we would have been at the top of this list. As it is, we didn't even rate in the top 37. You will, however, find many countries with very strict gun control laws shown in that very top 37.
Its about much more than this.
Very true! It's also about much, much, more than firearms, and gun control. It's about a total disregard, and lack of concern, for the lives of others.
I know I cannot change your mind.
You are wrong. You already have. Originally I thought your motivation was out of arrogance. Now I know that you are genuinely concerned.
But your on a site that is supposed to be for people who question everything.
I am a skeptic by nature. Contrary to popular opinion on this site, skeptics ARE THE ONLY ONES with a propensity to question EVERY DAMN THING.
Most responders have stated they would die before they would hand over their weapon. Thats a very interesting stance for so many people to take.
Yes they have, but it's not interesting. In fact, that's nothing but the bravado that seems to be encouraged so much these days. They should feel ashamed of themselves. I know I do. Responsible gun owners do not brag about owning firearms, nor do they make threats about what they might do with them. That is, indeed, part of the problem we are discussing.
I will be honest and say I really cannot understand this stance.
Perhaps you do now. It's nothing but foolishness. If I had acted that way when I was a kid, my father wouldn't have let me go anywhere near a BB gun, much less a handgun, rifle, or shotgun.
Reflecting on it a little I can only guess that a lot of people have this necessity to have a weapon out of fear.
Considering many of the responses you recieved, I can understand why. Responsible ownership is not about fear though. It's truly about being prepared IF the need arises. Most of us will never experience that need. The United States isn't near as dangerous as it's often portrayed. The same is true of most of the countries in this old World. I can say that from experience. I spent my first 18 years living in five different countries.
I just think people who own these weapons and are so obssesed at defending their right to own the gun should examine why they have this obssesion.
Obsessed people are always dangerous! That is likely the only thing the shooters you posted about had in common. OBSESSED PEOPLE SHOULD NOT OWN GUNS!
Cheers to ya,
Milt
PS:
It's fine to call me Milt. That's my real name.
edit on 6-4-2012 by BenReclused because: Typo
reply to post by cranspace
Nonsense. As far back as page 4 *this* bleeding heart liberal was fighting for your right to keep guns, and I don't even own one and wouldn't know how to use it if I did.
Nonsense. As far back as page 4 *this* bleeding heart liberal was fighting for your right to keep guns, and I don't even own one and wouldn't know how to use it if I did.
reply to post by captainnotsoobvious
I'm tired of you posting that same old lie. Show us where I posted "European only stats".
If you don't do so, I'm going to accept that as an admission that you have been consistently lying. I already know you're not man enough to admit it.
I'm truly amazed that the mods. let you get by with that sort of crap.
See ya,
Milt
PS:
By the way, good luck with that.
That guy Wilt repeatedly posted European only stats as "proof" of how much safer the US was than the rest of the world. Even after it was pointed out to him, he kept posting them.
I'm tired of you posting that same old lie. Show us where I posted "European only stats".
If you don't do so, I'm going to accept that as an admission that you have been consistently lying. I already know you're not man enough to admit it.
I'm truly amazed that the mods. let you get by with that sort of crap.
See ya,
Milt
PS:
By the way, good luck with that.
reply to post by captainnotsoobvious
And once again, another baseless, and false, accusation. You are either desperate, or delusional. Which is it?
Sorry... but without a reference, that is only a figment of your imagination.
I don't feel that you really have any issues with our gun control laws either. Considering your repeated dishonesty, I will concede that you do seem to have "issues" though.
I agree! That is not a theory. Like that "European list" that you keep claiming I posted, that "fact" only exists in your imagination.
See ya,
Milt
Sorry Milt, but that's another lie.
And once again, another baseless, and false, accusation. You are either desperate, or delusional. Which is it?
The guns that are taken off the streets are re-supplied via things like gun shows, etc.,
Sorry... but without a reference, that is only a figment of your imagination.
I have NO issue with guns for hunting,
I don't feel that you really have any issues with our gun control laws either. Considering your repeated dishonesty, I will concede that you do seem to have "issues" though.
This isn't a theory, mind. This is a fact. Look at places that DO control hand guns (now would be a time for your European statistics) and you'll see that there's not millions of guns in the hands of criminals in the UK.
I agree! That is not a theory. Like that "European list" that you keep claiming I posted, that "fact" only exists in your imagination.
See ya,
Milt
reply to post by captainnotsoobvious
Without a source, your claim is nothing but bunk.
See ya,
Milt
It's murder rate is four times as high as it's European counterparts.
Without a source, your claim is nothing but bunk.
See ya,
Milt
reply to post by captaintyinknots
We only have one! The other is only an imposter, and a very obvious one at that.
See ya,
Milt
Let everyone remember, I was, and always will be, the original Captain!
We only have one! The other is only an imposter, and a very obvious one at that.
See ya,
Milt
reply to post by BenReclused
I've repeatedly posted it in this thread Milt.
I know reading or being honest, arent your string points though Milt.
But all the literate folks were able to spot it.
You could also use google.
Get a friend to help you if necessary.
I've repeatedly posted it in this thread Milt.
I know reading or being honest, arent your string points though Milt.
But all the literate folks were able to spot it.
You could also use google.
Get a friend to help you if necessary.
edit on 6-4-2012 by captainnotsoobvious because: (no reason given)
reply to post by lacrimaererum
lets disarm the murderous genocidal totalitarian elitist controlled government, and then i'll turn in my gun too.
lets disarm the murderous genocidal totalitarian elitist controlled government, and then i'll turn in my gun too.