Dolphins are Self Aware - Why this matters so much

reply to post by Maxmars


I like the way you write.

Originally posted by TheLieWeLive
reply to post by colin42

 

Animals other than Humans do not have this ability to reason. Next time you're playing catch with your dog act like you're going to throw the ball but don't actually throw it. Lets see if your dog figures it out or continues to search the yard for a ball that isn't there. The dog doesn't reason that maybe you didn't throw it after all unless he sees the object still in your hand.

You're confusing reason with instinct.

edit on 22-2-2012 by TheLieWeLive because: (no reason given)

You dont know my dog.

Sorry but using instinct is a cop out. Wolves hunting in a pack shows foresight, application of learned knowledge and working to a plan. A plan that changes dependant on the quarry. Sorry but I do not accept that is instinct.

Whales use bubbles as a net to herd fish into a good mouthful again showing the application of learned knowledge. Working to a percieved goal. Working as a team to achieve that goal.

reply to post by templar knight


Dolphins will soon attack us, theve been building nuclear bombs for years, they need iran to help them with the last part of puzzle as irianians are descendants of dolphins.

reply to post by colin42


Sorry but what you described of the wolves was exactly instinctual behavour. The bubble net is learned behavour and shows group cooperation and whales are mammals like dolphins and do show superior intelligence to other animals. This does not put them in the same league as humans. Smart yes, superior intelligence no sorry.

Originally posted by karen61057
reply to post by FugitiveSoul

 

You suffer from esteem problems my friend. We are superior in every single way . It is not a flaw to realize what reality is. It is not arrogance to realize what reality is. I do not understand humans who want to give this very special part of our being away or deny it for some strange reason. We are HomoSapien Sapien, we are doubly wise and we are superior to every other species on the planet. You can act falsely modest and might even believe it but it wont ever be true. Step up and be who you are. Spectacular, special, imaginative, human. Special in every way. Welcome to the species.

Yes, we're wise. We're so wise that we willfully destroy our habitat, and the habitats of the thousands upon thousands of other creatures that make up this world. We are smart... we are imaginative. We are also fools who cannot create a better world because we've tricked our minds into thinking that material gain is anything more than trivial material. We live longer than we should, cause more damage than we should, and judging by your comment, we're doomed to repeat this endless cycle of reap until there's nothing left to reap until we fall yet again, and fall we will. We should be placing every ounce of time and focus on bettering our home, getting off this world to explore and learn from other alien homes, bettering humanity, and becoming the "wise and special" beings you think we're capable of being, but instead we war for black goo and shiny rocks, make newer and more pointless social networking sites, destroy more habitats, while leaving abandoned ones covered in asphalt, and watching our reality TV, which are cast with even more examples of how unwise we actually are.

Your post is the very arrogance I was speaking of. I don't blame you though. We're a young species. Teens you might call us. It's common for teenagers to think they know everything. Welcome to the species.

reply to post by karen61057
You say it is not the same. I say it is no different. Sorry instinct is offered up to explain to many things that can just as easily be explained another way.

If the animal heard a noise and without thinking ran away that would be instinct. More often than not the animal becomes more alert and then chooses the reaction once it ascertains the threat, oportunity. That is not instinct.

reply to post by Maxmars

I get your drift...but how, please, can a "dumb animal" exhibit so much intelligence? They can communicate with humans, carry out acts such as the planting of a bomb on a ship or the rescue of a human lost at sea (the latter being spontaneous and not trained). If that is not an act of compassion, love and intelligence, I don't know what is.

They are also one of the few animals on the planet that procreates for "fun". In other words, they have sex (like humans) just "for fun", but I'd rather watch them blow mind-blowing bubbles all day long. Maybe that's just a mental aberration of mine but still, it seems almost magician like. They are doing things with air bubbles that we cannot do and I don't think it's just due to nasal shapes.

reply to post by karen61057
Not here for an argument but wolf cubs are not born with the knowledge of how to hunt. They learn from the pack. This is so not instinctive behaviour.

They also learn to cooperate with the pack in all the activities the pack takes part in. Again not instinctive. Many ways they react are but not these. All social animals learn to interact with the group it is not instinctive.

reply to post by LightSpeedDriver


I know that these creatures are demonstrating some very 'human' characteristics. They also have been seen to engage in sexual assault and acts of homosexuality. This however seems like a poor gauge of self-awareness outside of the physical.

Please don't mistake my hesitation for a rejection of the possibility that they are in fact a form of intelligence that merits consideration. But I think that it is a difficult leap to make, since we are not apparently ready to accept that elephants are also self-aware in the same way dolphins are.

Then there are the primates we have abused for our amusement since centuries ago. we haven't even begun to scratch the surface insofar as the deeply significant discovery of cephalopod intelligence (squids and octopi) or the tantalizing hints of avian intelligence. All of these creatures display some characteristics or other which we though unique to humans.

Perhaps self-awareness isn't the 'be all end all' argument of life which carries rights and privileges of our social order.

Maybe we need to realize that the remarkable things about the human mental capacity to adapt and overcome are not so uniquely 'human' as we once supposed.

I am all for adopting and attitude that all life is intrinsically "sacred" (for lack of a better word) and that our ability to perceive this may be what sets us truly apart from the animal kingdom. Rather than view it as a sign of superiority, I think it demands a responsibility of us for the care and 'humane' treatment of all life.

But then, there is a lot about this topic that requires much deeper consideration than I can cram into a post without boring everyone to the point of leaving the thread

reply to post by LightSpeedDriver


That video amazes me every time!

And I believe a lot of animals on this planet are a lot more intelligent than we will ever know. After all, how can you communicate with a being that has a different physiological makeup, and has had a completely different experience in life so can't relate to what you're saying. Added to the fact that they have their own 'language' that we will probably not decipher for a long time, humans will probably continue thinking we are the only self aware species on this planet for a while. A shame really.

Cheers,
Ben.

reply to post by Maxmars

You could never bore me. You have a good way with words and ideas.

I think you sum it up quite well SIr!

Maybe we need to realise that the remarkable things about the human mental capacity to adapt and overcome are not so uniquely 'human' as we once supposed.

I'm with you! Bore us, but educate us too!

As for animal testing, I would like to painfully torture every human that has engaged in this practice. Preferably in laboratory conditions....

ETA You won't frighten me off, I'm an animal lover.

reply to post by Maxmars
Great post

Intelligence is a matter of perspective. A brick layer laying bricks can be considered of low intelligence, trust me I have had enough treatment to know it is true. (the treatment that is)

A chemist could be thought of as intelligent because he knows how chemicals react and where they are on the periodic table.

A bricklayer can build a cathedral and a chemist can make a clear liquid go blue. My point is intelligence is recognised from the viewer’s perspective and means pretty much nothing.

reply to post by colin42



Perhaps you are right, instinctive is not the right choice of word but It's still not reasoning.

I agree that animals do show learned knowledge. Koko the gorilla understood over a 1000 hand signs. This is awesome for any animal to display, but did Koko understand why she had been taught these signs? Beside the occasional treat for getting it correct.
Did she have the reasoning to say "well, they are teaching me this just to see how many I can learn."? No. If this was the case the gorilla would eventually start teaching itself without the need of a trainer. They do not reason for what they are shown, they are just good at replicating or mimicking. Just like the Wolves are doing. Which is the same behavior a 2 year old human displays. It's beyond this age that reason starts to show itself in humans. After awhile you can get the child to study without your help and the child starts comprehending what it's looking at without you telling them. This is what sets us apart. Maybe Dolphins can reason too. I don't know, but if they can it's on a lot smaller scale than us.
If it was any other way we wouldn't be top species of this planet.

Originally posted by TheLieWeLive
reply to post by colin42

 

Animals other than Humans do not have this ability to reason. Next time you're playing catch with your dog act like you're going to throw the ball but don't actually throw it. Lets see if your dog figures it out or continues to search the yard for a ball that isn't there. The dog doesn't reason that maybe you didn't throw it after all unless he sees the object still in your hand.

You're confusing reason with instinct.

edit on 22-2-2012 by TheLieWeLive because: (no reason given)

So a mouse who figures out a maze is not using reason?? Come on.. MANY animals have reason..

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by Maxmars

 

Great post

Intelligence is a matter of perspective. A brick layer laying bricks can be considered of low intelligence, trust me I have had enough treatment to know it is true. (the treatment that is)

A chemist could be thought of as intelligent because he knows how chemicals react and where they are on the periodic table.

A bricklayer can build a cathedral and a chemist can make a clear liquid go blue. My point is intelligence is recognised from the viewer’s perspective and means pretty much nothing.

edit on 22-2-2012 by colin42 because: (no reason given)

One of my friends never graduated HS and became an auto mechanic. Smartest guy I know and he's walking around with a GED. Just to keep things in perspective I know GSoros, BCLinton, and GBush. All morons in comparison..

I have never considered humans to be superior to any other animal. I think it's just dumb luck that we happened to get this form.

"The soul is the same in all living creatures, although the body of each is different." - Hippocrates

reply to post by karen61057

Dont be so quick to give our supremacy away to another species. We are still top dog on the planet.

Considering 2/3 of this planet is sea/ocean....I wouldn't be too sure about that!

to all those that think humans are more special then they are and that animals are less:
watch

CROW SLIDES DOWN ROOF IN HIS MAKESHIFT TUBE!

www.youtube.com...

Self Aware?
Does that include the emotion of joy from having fun.... or the ingenuity to create the means to have said fun?

There's no way this is instinctual behavior, or even learned behavior. This is a discovered activity brought on by the same awareness that tells us humans to bounce a ball against a wall, or tap a pen on a desk.... boredom.

reply to post by TheLieWeLive


I think you're a little off with your conclusion that reason separates us from the other animals, LieWeLive. I think any animal that uses "found tools" must be able to reason, or else they wouldn't recognize the utility in the random objects they find in their surroundings.

If you ask - which you didn't, but for the sake of conversation... If you ask me it is our creativity that separates us. Other animals make use of of such things as sticks for shovels and forks (chimps), but we sharpened the sticks to make spears, adorned them with flint tips to make arrows and made a multitude of other modifications. Never have I seen footage of of other animals, not even our primate cousins, so much as sharpen a stick on a rock.

Another good example of creativity being the separating factor is the artistic elephant. Elephants, when provided with the proper tools and given a brief tutorial, are quite capable of painting on an easel whilst using their trunks to grip the brush. The catch is that they can only paint what is directly in the line of sight. Also, they generally just put the colors in the right places (blue for the sky, green for ground, ect.) and lack a bit when it comes to figure, but that's beside the point. What is important is that never has an elephant painted anything from memory or imagination, only what is before them, like a four ton, fleshy camera.

Many animals are smart enough to mimic us, but none (yet) have proven to be our equals so far as higher-thinking (creativity) goes.