Heavy "Spraying"* in Phoenix Today 2-1-12

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
Okay, what the heck is the matter with you guys?

Nobody has bothered to comment on the huge "U" shaped "contrails" that fill the sky in the video above's screen-shot.

I suppose you may be talking about this photo fro tsurfer's post above:


If so, I'm not sure if that is a U-shaped trail, or simply two trails.

However, whether that particular photo is of a U-shaped trail or not is beside the point here, considering that U-shaped trails DO exist. Even chemtrail debunkers don't argue that they exist.

Those U-shaped, race-track shaped, or even circular trails are usually caused by regular airliners in holding patterns.

More information here: Racetrack Holding Patterns

reply to post by LeonoraTenen


The "U shapes" are just indicating a Holding Pattern.

Those of us who are pilots KNOW what a Holding Pattern is.

Here, a link to explain it:

Holding Pattern (aviation)


Believe me, I have taught a LOT of people....and this concept is very difficult to convey, and to teach....at least, it was back in the late 1970s....before the advent of the Internet, and these wonderful videos to explain what Flight IInstructors tried to teach.....

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

I suppose you may be talking about this photo fro tsurfer's post above:

No I'm talking about this:

Originally posted by redzareptile
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Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
No I'm talking about this:

Originally posted by redzareptile
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OK, then that definitely looks like a holding pattern.
More information here: Racetrack Holding Patterns

Originally posted by ProudBird
reply to post by LeonoraTenen

 

The "U shapes" are just indicating a Holding Pattern.

Those of us who are pilots KNOW what a Holding Pattern is.

Here, a link to explain it:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holding_(aviation)Holding Pattern (aviation)[/url]


Believe me, I have taught a LOT of people....and this concept is very difficult to convey, and to teach....at least, it was back in the late 1970s....before the advent of the Internet, and these wonderful videos to explain what ww (Instructors) tried to teach......

edit on Tue 7 February 2012 by ProudBird because: (no reason given)

HAHA!!! AWESOME!
Nice try PB. Really... but do you expect me to let you off that easily?

How & why would a bunch of planes fly in at 35,000ft and circle in numerous repeated holding patterns, only over a densely populated area only, (which conveniently for you also just so happens to be the area where the conditions support natural contrails..) filling that area of the sky in a matter of 30 minutes... as a means of normal air flight travel.

Are you saying it's Military??

Come on man, you have to do better if you want to debunk this one.

reply to post by LeonoraTenen


DONE!

Please see my post above.....as well as subsequent posts.

Getting to learn about aviation is the beginning.....PLEASE take a flying lesson (or two) to start. You will learn a LOT!!
I can only provide my years of knowledge and expertise, in what I write....on ATS.

I have MUCH more to offer....in person.....

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
How & why would a bunch of planes fly in at 35,000ft and circle in numerous repeated holding patterns, (only over a populated area) only in an area where they are obviously laying a plethora of U's down.. making a complete, utter mess of the sky in a matter of 30 minutes... as a means of normal air flight travel...

Often the multiple u-shaped trails are not made bu multiple planes, but a single plane.

The Race-track shaped holding pattern is usually flown at a very specific size and speed. Considering that the contrails move in the wind, the trail left by the first pass of the plane moves before the plane makes the next pass, and so on for multiple passes. This can create multiple trails left by the same plane.

This isn't anything new or secretive -- it's just normal aviation practices.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
OK, then that definitely looks like a holding pattern.
More information here: Racetrack Holding Patterns

That is a website which is specifically intended to DEBUNK "chemtrails". Nice.

They are trying to say that a number of commercial airliners just came in and went into the same holding pattern at the same time, at cruising altitude. Or one plane doing it for hours on end... riiight.

How highly unlikely are the odds that about a dozen commercial airliners are sent into a simultaneous cruising-altitude holding pattern in the identical pattern and airspace as one another?

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
How & why would a bunch of planes fly in at 35,000ft and circle in numerous repeated holding patterns, (only over a populated area) only in an area where they are obviously laying a plethora of U's down.. making a complete, utter mess of the sky in a matter of 30 minutes... as a means of normal air flight travel...

Often the multiple u-shaped trails are not made bu multiple planes, but a single plane.

The Race-track shaped holding pattern is usually flown at a very specific size and speed. Considering that the contrails move in the wind, the trail left by the first pass of the plane moves before the plane makes the next pass, and so on for multiple passes. This can create multiple trails left by the same plane.

This isn't anything new or secretive -- it's just normal aviation practices.

edit on 2/7/2012 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

That document doesn't insinuate that the same plane will be sent into a holding pattern for 2-hours.
Please do better at debunking. You can't reach that far and be taken seriously by a truly critical thinker.

reply to post by LeonoraTenen


Catching up.....hang on:

How & why would a bunch of planes fly in at 35,000ft and circle in numerous repeated holding patterns, only over a densely populated area only, (which conveniently for you also just so happens to be the area where the conditions support natural contrails..)

Ya know.....there ARE occasions when Air Traffic Control (ATC) need to put airplanes into holding patterns.....it happens at ALL altitudes, and far, far more often than you realize, apparently.

I happen to know a LOT.....so. "bring it on" I'm game.

Side bar....

Where I live, in SOCal.....I am hearing jets over my area.....and, I KNOW how to look this up, because it is "unusual"...and sure enough, LAX (ICAO designation KLAX) is operating opposite of their normal "pattern". (BECAUSE of the current local weather...)

I am WELL aware of how things work, in aviation.

WHEN people link on this in the future, they will see a different arrangement....BUT, right now, AS I link this, Los Angeles International Airport (KLAX) is operating to the East...it is NOT the normal "pattern" for KLAX...as anyone can research.

The operations to the "East" mean that they (at KLAX) are using Runways 7L and 7R, as well as 6L and 6R....for departures and arrivals.


This ALSO means that flights are given different Arrival and Departure Procedures, per the active Runways.

PLEASE try to educate yourselves, based on this provided link:

ALL KLAX IFR Procedures


I can explain ALL of them, just PM (or ATS U2U) me......

So, "bring it on"...I'm game......

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
That document doesn't insinuate that the same plane will be sent into a holding pattern for 2-hours.
Please do better at debunking. You can't reach that far and be taken seriously by a truly critical thinker.

Not all racetrack patterns are caused by a single plane, but some can be.

For more examples of racetrack holding patterns (which are not at all uncommon -- I'm surprised you seem to be doubting their existence), here is a video showing air traffic and several race-track-shaped patterns due to delays at the New York City airports. There are several, but one that is easy to see is the one at the :14 second mark east of the Baltimore/Washington DC area airports (BWI, IAD, and DCA). Also around that same time in Central and western Pennsylvania, and at around the :20 mark in Northern Pennsylvania/Southern New York

Another obvious one occurs at the :29 second mark south of those Washington airports (just on the bottom edge of the video frame).

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


THANK YOU!!!!

I have referenced that video, and aspects of it (there is a longer version) frequently, in the past.

The understanding of WHAT pilots go through is paramount to this grasp of what is so difficult to convey, to those who ARE NOT in our field....nor equipped to understand all the nuances of flying, nor grasp the MANY aspects that those of us experience, day in and day out.......

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen

That is a website which is specifically intended to DEBUNK "chemtrails". Nice.

Then maybe you should do some independent research on your own. Research contrails, aviation, and, specifically, holding patterns.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen

That is a website which is specifically intended to DEBUNK "chemtrails". Nice.

These aren't

kids.britannica.com...

en.wikipedia.org...(aviation)

OK, thanks guys... you have adequately debunked this one.
After watching that video, I can see that these race-track holding patterns are highly common.
There are clear points in the video where you can see a single plane circling repeatedly in the same oval pattern. And sometimes, it's just a circle.. I will ditch the "U" argument as "unusual flight patterns".

That said, I still believe they are doing and will do what they have proposed (1 approach of Geo-Engineering: Aerial Spraying) with or without permission.
They propose the spraying of aluminum and barium. I know their reasons are bunk (CO2 and Global Warming) and I know their scientific claims of what it will do, are false. It's not feasible.
Plus, it's self-defeating and contradictory in that they propose removing large areas of dark land mass (trees & foliage) and replacing it with reflective material. When trees are the only hope we have for eating some of that evil CO2.

The main point I'd like to make still is that if they were doing it, it would appear just like any other normal aircraft or contrail. We still wouldn't be able to satisfy the skeptics (aka devout disbelievers who will do anything to keep not believing) to the point where it can be agreed upon. So it's a vicious circle for nothing.

The only thing that would settle it is for them to come right out and admit they are doing it. Which would bring about consequences and challenges for them that they don't really want or need.

The intrinsic nature of what this site/forum discusses, are things which in large could never be proven because no evidence will be acredited by skeptics. Yet, still alot of evidence to support conspiracy theories exists.. we know that covert operations are carried out in multitude every day, and that we will probably never know details. So to you that doesn't exist, simply since the proof has successfully been concealed.

Makes it kind of un-fairly leaned in favor of the debunkers, who make it so easy for themselves and SO difficult for their opponents.

In case my point wasn't clear, what I'm saying is: The main MO of nature, in keeping something concealed is to camouflage it. That is the MO of the perpetrators of these crimes. Hiding behind nature.
You wouldn't be able to discern the difference between actual aerial spraying and naturally-occurring contrails, from the ground.
And there's no way to catch planes landing and taking off when they're not doing it anywhere near your location.
So the likelihood of actually capturing footage of these planes on the ground and vans loading ingredients, is highly highly unlikely. If it were something which they wished to keep covert, they easily could.

Originally posted by LeonoraTenen
The main point I'd like to make still is that if they were doing it, it would appear just like any other normal aircraft or contrail.

I'm not sure that even that is necessarily true - it would depend a lot on exactly what mechanism was being used.

For example if "something" was being put into fuel then most of the time the "spraying" would probably be invisible - just like jet exhaust 95% or 99% or some other large fraction of the time when there are no contrails.

Sulfur dioxide is invisible so if it was being "sprayed" then wouldn't see it at all - even if it was being directly sprayed along the lines of agricultural spraying.

so even a seemingly simple idea of what "it" would look like has many variables.

The problem with that assessment is that if substances were being sprayed into the air, they would actually be there. Air sampling goes on constantly for many purposes and from many agencies (there was a link on here not too long ago with a lst of many of them), Only one of them would need to find something odd for the S to HTF. So far none has. This might not be proof that nothing is being sprayed, but is highly indicative that nothing is.

Unusual looking trails can often get people excited as their imagination runs riot looking for a secret explanation, just out of interest here are some images I took on Sunday which show an effect that has been commented on as evidence of various things from chemtrails to the existence of the secret Aurora spaceplane n previous ATS discussions, but here I witnessed it for myself, from a Lufthansa 747;



And the trail it left did this;

reply to post by waynos


That is a GREAT "Screenshot"


I just wish to ADD, here....the proper ICAO references...for "FRA" (which is Frankfurt, Germany....ICAO code is "EDDF") and KDEN (which is the ICAO designation for the airport commonly known as "DEN".

The Three-digit codes that are mosy familiar are the "IATA" codes.

THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!!!

...to understanding.

I hope I have contributed to the better knowledge of the Aviation Industry.....I try me best....

reply to post by ProudBird


I was just lucky it was flying so close to the text

I am building up a whole folder of similar shots, partly for the hell of it, and also they may come in useful for future discussions.