Will Catholics make the Rapture; is it only a Protestant thing?

reply to post by The time lord


Assuming a rapture, then I'm pretty sure Catholics and Protestants both go. People make too much of this Protestant vs Catholic thing. People from both sides like to get into this argument about what the "true" church is, and if you reject it (whichever it is) you'll go to Hell, but everyone forgets what the original idea was.

And don't forgot the church split. The Orthodox Church. I mean which is the true church? The original split? How do you know which is legit? I think that's a stupid argument. I don't think the question is about rejecting any church. No matter which church you pick, you're still rejecting the other one, and they're both possibly legit! No matter what you do you're screwed.

Everyone knows what the original church was. Then it split. With their powers combine, they make the one true church. Yada Yada Yada. Everyone knows that.

Anyway, some say Protestants are going to Hell because they reject the "true" Church. But what they MEAN by that is reject Church authority basically. But that's not actually true.

The original idea wasn't to reject it. That's the thing. They forget what the word Protestant means. From the Latin protestari meaning publicly declare/protest. We're Pro-testants! Protesters! Protesting MODERN new policies/doctrines of the Church that aren't Biblical and not what Jesus would teach. Like paying off your sins with money. That was Martin Luther's big thing I guess.

Anyway, the point is nobody is rejecting it in the sense that we're saying it wasn't HIS church though. We're just protesting the human beings currently running it.

It's just like when you protest the Government for it to change its policies. Nobody is rejecting the authority of the Government and saying it's not legitimate. In fact they are saying IT IS legitimate because if was an illegitimate Government, and not the TRUE Government, you're wasting your time protesting it. You're protesting the wrong one! It doesn't matter if it changes its mind. It's illegitimate.

By the simple act of protesting you're basically saying, yes this is the true Government with authority and legitimacy, but it is doing things I don't like. So, this is the one we will protest to modify its behavior.

That's all it really boils down to. When you see it for what it really is, there is no difference. We're actually all the same. You wouldn't say if I protested the Government, then I'm not a US citizen anymore am I? No I'm still a citizen just like I'm still a Christian.

Protestants aren't some evil fake church people that just sprung up out of nowhere. It was started by Catholics protesting doctrine. But we're all citizens of Jesus if you will. We're most likely all going to the same place.

Now if that's rapture or not I'll have to get back to you.

reply to post by schadenfreude

The Rapture is a minor doctrine held mostly by US based religious groups which has spawned a cottage industry of books, and other media.

Say something long and often enough and less discerning people will believe it.

reply to post by The time lord


Only 144,000 people will be raptured. And the likelihood is that it happend decades ago. Chances are, the lucky ones were from Amazonian or New Guinea tribes, rather than corrupt decadent westerners. Why assume otherwise?

reply to post by troubleshooter


The whole "say something long enough and everyone will believe it", is frankly getting rather old.

From that link, I pasted several holes in those that believe the rapture was started in the 1800's. (Or rather the author did)

And i can as well, using scripture. The question I have, is anyone willing to debate it using scripture, or take on the facts mentioned from my previous link?

If not, then please don't regurgitate the whole "1800's bla bla bla" bunk b/c that's all it is.

If you seriously wanna debate it using scripture however, I'm more than game.

reply to post by Essan


This is a belief mostly held by Jehovah Witnesses, and therefore not a viable argument.

No one can live just like Jesus did because He was the only perfect person to walk the Earth. Personally I don't believe He'll be as harsh as some people believe. Don't get me wrong---there will be those who get cast into the lake of fire but do I think it will be just because you smoke, don't have kids and multipy, don't go to church---no I don't believe that. Jesus knows we're not perfect, that's why He came and paid for our sins. Anyone familiar with Saint Faustina. She is the Saint of Devine Mercy. She was a nun in Poland durning the 30's and saw and spoke with Jesus many times. There is the famous Divine painting that came to be from her vision and also her diaries of what she was told to tell people. She became Sainthood in the late 70's I believe.

The Rapture doctrine is just another distraction from what Christians are asked to do...

Jesus said to His desciples "...this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matt 24:14)

...but everything else gets proclaimed except the Gospel.

Originally posted by troubleshooter
The Rapture doctrine is just another distraction from what Christians are asked to do...

Jesus said to His desciples "...this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matt 24:14)

...but everything else gets proclaimed except the Gospel.

I have to disagree with you slightly here too, but only slightly! I agree the gospel has been watered down ad nauseum, but what has also been watered down is the christians FOCUS. What were the jews looking for in their captivity? A deliverer, right? and where were they to go? the promised land, yes? They lost their focus, and wanted to return to "the world they knew, Egypt".

What is our focus? What is OUR "blessed hope"? Heaven, and our escape is the rapture. Those that are heavenly minded, don't care much for worldly things. Their heart is settled on the one most important to them, Jesus Christ.

Now you can say how the gospel has been watered down, but let me reply, how often have you personally gave the gospel message? (Not judging here) It's stated that only 2% of christians witness their faith to others, 2 percent! That's repugnant. I suggest that if we have a heavenly mindset, then that number would be significantly higher, but alas we're more concerned with attendance and "bake sales" and being politically correct rather than calling out our "brothers" when they mess up. (and most "christians" use the "judge not lest ye be judged" hammer to bludgeon someone to death with.

My only point here is that we do what our hearts are focused on, we make time for what we WANT to do. if we have a heavenly mindset, we act accordingly, we have focus. personally, i think there is a strong correlation between the jews in the wilderness of the exodus, and the christians in the "last days". and considering how biblically ignorant of bible prophecy most of my brothers/sisters are,(not condemning you personally) then that just reinforces my idea of a connection between the exodus and the end of days, and the connection between the two peoples.

Oy vey

The rapture doctrine is a false doctrine that has no basis in scripture..

It is a myth that has been dragged into the church from a couple of charletons from the 1800's as a deception for this modern age Laodician church that will do as God advised and "be refined in the fire", in other words to suffer the coming persecutions and disasters that are about to befall everyone.

God is a plain speaker and does not need to resort to obscure writings and ramblings to get His Word across..

He says things plain and simply, ie to sin is death, chose life or death, nothing obscure about that..

Jesus was also plain on the subject of the end;

Immediatelyafter the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Nothing obscure about that

Modern day churchianity is going through the fire..

6So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

There is no need to rapture the "faithfull" Philadelphian church because they have died already and that age is over..

reply to post by schadenfreude


What, that's it's Amazonian and New Guinea indians who have already been raptured?



The whole thing is a load of codswallop. Just a silly bogeyman to get folk to do as you tell them.

Ok, for all of those either too lazy to click links that go against your opinion, or just for those that love to argue, I'll cite ONE of many instances that support my claim that the rapture is NOT heretical. (Depending of course, if you believe in the inerrancy of scripture. If you don't I got nothing for ya.

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:17-18)

Now compare that verse, with this one:

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations” (Rev. 13:7)

Now those that don't believe in the rapture have pretty much just called God a liar. If you don't believe God is a liar, then make those two verses gel. You can't, unless you state the position that these are two different dispensations, and that God deals with Israel & the church separately.

reply to post by Essan


No, that a jehovah's witnesses' opinion about the rapture is even relevant, b/c they're not even christian.

And yes I'll answer WHY I say this, based on their own teachings.(Before you even ask)

The following quote is from the Watchtower publication for children, "My Book of Bible Stories," (2009), p103:

"Do you know what happened to Jesus' body? God caused it to disappear. God did not raise Jesus to life in the fleshly body in which he died. He gave Jesus a NEW spirit body, as the angels in heaven have. But to show his disciples he is alive, Jesus can take on a body that people can see, as we will learn."

Yet the bible says: 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Jehovah witnesses believe Jesus was RECREATED, not RESURRECTED as scripture clearly points out.

John 2:18-22: The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy THIS temple, and in three days I will raise IT up." The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking of the temple of HIS BODY. So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

Sorry if this post seems off-topic, but I had to explain why I posted what I said.

Edit: I can quote you other sources if you wish t o know from their own books in PM if you like, but not here. I dont want to derail this thread any further.

Originally posted by schadenfreude
reply to post by Essan

 

No, that a jehovah's witnesses' opinion about the rapture is even relevant, b/c they're not even christian.

They don't believe in Jesus or his teachings? Really? Or do you mean they aren't the same sub-sect as you?

They may have extreme views, but so do most catholics and protestants and everyone else. I'm sure were he alive today Jesus would be most bemused.

Anyway, where does this idea of a rapture come from, and what makes you so certain your interpretation of what is meant is right and others so totally wrong?

You don't sound very christian to me

reply to post by Essan


Do YOU believe the bible is real? Do you believe God is real? I already mentioned in a previous post that if you don't believe I got nothing for ya. IOW, don't waste my time. If on the other hand, you DO believe, I'll tell ya, and show you why I said what I said, in PM, otherwise I won't bother wasting my time.

And i can understand how I don't sound "very christian" to some, but i'm not a pc christian. PC sends ppl to hell, I dont.

Jesus himself said I don't come to bring peace, but a sword. Does that sounds very christian?

It's all about context.

My context is helping ppl who are deceived into becoming undeceived. I gave the bible verses that say if you don't believe that Jesus was resurrected, then YOUR FAITH IS IN VAIN.

Which is more Christlike? To pretend everything is "ok", or to point out one's errors using scripture? I think as long as i'm not acting like a first grade douche, the answer should be obvious.

Originally posted by Blue Shift

Originally posted by will615
Jesus said to give away all your possessions. How many people really do that? It's much easier to come up with a rationalization to explain that's not what he really meant.

edit on 26-1-2012 by Blue Shift because: (no reason given)

Good point. Random story time. I actually tried this. I hadn't worked in a while and my car was broke down and I was broke as broke can get.

Anyway I'm like well, whatever, I'll just get rid of all my stuff cause I can't pay for it anymore. I didn't give it away for free if that's what you're thinking. No, I sold it. But I sold it to pay off my debt and the rest of the money I gave to who I was staying with/family. So, in a round about way I literally just gave away everything I had one day. I started to look for another job. But I never found one considering the economy.

But every time I tried to give away my stuff PEOPLE GAVE ME MORE STUFF! It's like the Devil is messing with me. I literally could not get rid of it. Like this computer I'm on right now was given to me, but I gave it to a friend I owed that needed one for school. He upgraded it. New PSU, doubled the RAM, put a new video card in. He still wasn't happy with it basically. He decided to do a totally new gaming machine build with his school loans and HE GAVE IT BACK. I have had the same computer given to me twice! And now it's twice as fast! I tried to get rid of it and couldn't.

You know those really expensive like $150 single brew coffee makers? We got THREE of them for X-mas. THREE? I didn't even ask for one! Seriously, had to just give two of them away to people I know, and don't really want the one I kept, but the women demanded it so I gave it to her.

I've gotten Nintendo Wiis, TVs, clothes, food, a car, a microwave, and two guitars, and an entire furniture set for both the dining room AND bedroom. The list goes on and on. Every time I give something to someone in need, I end up with twice as much junk. Someone has an extra. Someone dies and leaves it to me. Or whatever.

It's like giving it away creates like a stuff vacuum or something that must be filled with more and more stuff. Like my family is huge and never gives money for Xmas. They always buy gifts. They never give money. For some reason or another my mother gives me $500 this year. I tell her over and over I don't want any money. But she insists. I gave your sister money this year so I have to make it equal. Okay, whatever mom.

Well I just happened to know of someone who was down and out this year and needed money, so I'm like alright whatever, take this $500. So okay, we go to visit all the family members this year at xmas and every single one gives us money all of a sudden. At the end of the day it comes out to around $1,000. Then the women gets a $1,000 bonus at work. Now it looks like we're getting $1,000 more back in taxes than usual. Started with $500, gave it away, ended up with $3,000. Now I'm trying to figure out who to donate that to. Cause I don't need money. All bills are paid.

Because after four years of this, I got to looking around my APT one day and realized I didn't BUY ANYTHING IN HERE! It was all given to me and it's all brand friggin new.

I don't even have to work lately because a couple years ago I wrote a program for a friend's website. For free. He turns around behind my back and starts selling it to other people. I didn't bother because I didn't think anyone else would want it. It was pretty custom code. But he's like hey man, people are buying the crap outta your code. And just starts sending me checks. So all bills got paid. It's just insane.

Don't know if that'll go forever, but it's been going for three or four years and it's GETTING WORSE!.

Rumour has it, from the tptb,,is that these ---> SOUNDS

Originally posted by BobAthome
Rumour has it, from the tptb,,is that these ---> SOUNDS

Originally posted by Essan
Only 144,000 people will be raptured. And the likelihood is that it happend decades ago. Chances are, the lucky ones were from Amazonian or New Guinea tribes, rather than corrupt decadent westerners. Why assume otherwise?

Revelation is quite specific about who will be "raptured" and who won't. The lucky winners are male virgin Jews, 1,200 from each of the 12 tribes. Everybody else is SOL. Not that anybody reads or pays attention to the actual Bible...

Originally posted by schadenfreude
reply to post by Essan

 

This is a belief mostly held by Jehovah Witnesses, and therefore not a viable argument.

Rev 14:1-5

“Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.”

This is a belief taken from the word of God as found in the Holy Bible. Just because the JW believe this does not make it a JW doctrine. It IS scriptoral, black and white fact.

What will help you all in the long run is understanding that what Christianity teaches as what happens after death is not scriptoral, in this age (the last 6000 years) it was God plan to only draw a few individuals to salvation for the purpose of the Kingdom of God/ Temple of God/Body of Christ/Church of God that only 144,000 plus Jesus Chrsit would be saved in this age IS God's perfect plan... but not all of it The understanding of why this is, how it is and what the plan is in the future for every human being that has ever lived regardless of race, religion, culture etc. is the truely amazing truth of the word of God, but the time for the salvation of all mankind is not of this age, but of the ages to come.

Currently as I write this there is only God the Father and Jesus Christ the son as immortal spirit beings in the Elohim (family) of God. By June of this year there will be 144,000 more members all tranformed in the twinkling of an eye; first those who are dead and in the ground (Mary, Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Moses, Aaron, Solomon, David, Joseph etc.) then those who are alive still (extreamly few alive today are sealed into this group) to join Christ at the very moment he begins to return to Earth to rule mankind as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

A good measuring stick is this:
WWJD

Christianity uses this phrase all the time, it means "What would Jesus Do?" Well the best way to know this answer is to ask yourself "what did Jesus Do?

Things Jesus Did:
- Kept the 7th day Sabbath all his life on Earth (Saturday).
- Kept the annual Holy Days including Passover every year of his life.
- Never eat unclean foods (pig, shrimp, catfish etc.)
- Did not want any religious leader to be called "father" for there is but one Father in Heaven.
- Prayed to One God Almighty.
- Never had anything crafted in the image of something in Heaven (whether prayed to or not).

Things current Christians Do:
- Keep a Sunday sabbath as the Babylonians did in Sun god worship.
- Keep pagan holidays like the winter solstice (Saturalia/ Christmas), and the Feast of Easter (fertility goddess)
- Eat whatever foods they want regardless of God telling them they were never created to be consumed by man.
- Call there leader pope (father) or priest "father".
- Pray to a trinity of gods compossed of God, Jesus and a "holy spirit".
- Ware gold crosses around their necks to symbolize Jesus Christ (if he had died in a guillitine, would Christians all ware gold guillitines?), use chanting style memorized prayers holding some beads in their hand. Also craft all sorts of statues representing people they believe are in Heaven right now, and gold molten images of Jesus Christ on a cross.

God Bless,

Originally posted by schadenfreude
Ok, for all of those either too lazy to click links that go against your opinion, or just for those that love to argue, I'll cite ONE of many instances that support my claim that the rapture is NOT heretical. (Depending of course, if you believe in the inerrancy of scripture. If you don't I got nothing for ya.

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:17-18)

Now compare that verse, with this one:

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations” (Rev. 13:7)

Now those that don't believe in the rapture have pretty much just called God a liar. If you don't believe God is a liar, then make those two verses gel. You can't, unless you state the position that these are two different dispensations, and that God deals with Israel & the church separately.

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:17-18)

The gates of Hell will not prevail against God's Church/Body of Christ/ Kingdom of God/ Temple of God. The verse is in referance to the Church not being prevailed against; not the individual Peter.

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations” (Rev. 13:7)

Any with God's spirit dwelling in them are saints (spiritually begotten of the Father), the saints being referred to in Revelation are those in the Church of God now living through th events of the end days. Satan DID prevail against the saints of Laodicea (because they fell asleep spiritually, lukewarm) which is when the temple was destroyed and the "abomination of desolation" was fulfilled. The temple that was destroyed was the spiritual temple of God being built by Jesus Christ with Peter as the rock it was built upon, not the temple mount in Jerusalem.

Again as another member said, God's words are plain and are simple to grasp if God is drawing you to know them.

God Bless,