Will Catholics make the Rapture; is it only a Protestant thing?

Incidently...theologically speaking,

I would be more inclined to believe the people judging whom is and isn't going to heaven is in far greater peril than those whom simply are doing what they personally feel is right for them.

I think judgement on behalf of the deity is a far greater insult than getting the motions wrong with a heart intent on honoring the creator...so you got the name wrong, or were taught you need to dance naked around a fire while chanting in order to properly pray...big whoop..the intent is not lost.

But those whom decide to jump ahead and list who is and isn't going to hell..ya..that to me is the real blasphemy...god is the judge, not some dude...would rather have an anti-christian pagan before some "good" christian telling who is and isn't going to hell if I were the dude. I can do the job myself, thanks.

Anyhow, theologically speaking anyhow.

reply to post by daslobo


Yes I understand that but many accuse the Catholics of this, I just looked into it and there was quite a few websites based on this, it is like praying for each other and asking the saints to do so.

The only problem is that some kids or Catholics get the message wrong and believe praying to the image of a Saint will be the same thing which maybe can confuse the overall message.

The differences it seems are these:
Praying to Jesus-
Praying to the Saints for help-
Praying for one another -

VS

Praying to a Image or Statue litrally-
Believing in the Statue will help-
Kids believing and getting confused the statue of Mary or the Saints would help-
Using images to visualise prayer with God and the Saints-

Confusing worship, people saying that Joseph and Mary statues are the real Saints-
Saying they are Saints but only representation of them -
Giving Money to the Statues litrally because they believe they will help-
Or Giving money to the Statues in order to help the Church-
Or the Church purposely insinuating the Statues to be a forgiving or holy object when it is not-
Then the message being a festival of Saints and nothing litral, but explantion is rarely given by priests in what they think or what people really think.-
The bleeding statues of Mary across the world so people believe in the statues litrally.

Apart from that if Catholics believe in Christ as the Son the rest of the seperate beliefs of the Protestants should not really matter when the rapture does happen unless of course there was some form of corruption in the beliefs where people forgot about Christ first.

Unless the rapture is very hard to come by and only a few holy people make it, but the Bible does say somewhere even prostitutes and sinners make it because they believed rather than some of the pharasees who condem everyone and pray in the streets to heard, the ones that prayers to him self in silence of their sins are heard the loudest in heaven.

So..are all the jews and muslims going to heaven then? neither believe jesus to be the avatar of god...just a prophet at best.

Originally posted by Blue Shift
All Catholics are going to Heaven, no matter what. That's what Jesus died for. Duh. The various Protestant sects can fight about it all they want, who gets to go and who doesn't. But they're all horribly misguided, and
none of them are going, anyway.

Not all Catholics, my friend.

I was raised Catholic myself, but now I just consider myself a Christian, but I know plenty of people who truly believe their righteous Catholics and are the furthest thing from it.

reply to post by SaturnFX

I would be more inclined to believe the people judging whom is and isn't going to heaven is in far greater peril than those whom simply are doing what they personally feel is right for them.

I second that one.

Wasn't there something in the Bible about "Judgement is mine sayeth the Lord"?

Guess the Catholics are not the only ones who missed something.

Not sure, the Jews will carry on to populate the Earth after the Armageddon wars, God will be seated at Zion so they will see him there.

Not sure about the rest, if you pray to another god I am not sure it counts Biblically as much, to deny Christ is a big issue and Islam has no shame in saying so and denying to Holy Spirit and Christ so I guess it depends how God feels, but their nations will rage war before the endtimes, Amageddon is not in America it is across the Middle East and most of the Gog and Magog nations of Ezekiel 38 derive from those parts, God will be judging Israel's enemies by them, but he is at least not sending the Jews to hell, they will be mourning for the one they pierced as told in Zechariah 12 but their lord will also be present at Zion as judge.

Muslism believe in the 12 imam to arrive with Jesus/Isa who will break the cross and kill the Christians and Jews and Zionism (Note: Other ATS threads based on this with Iran's current agenda), so do you think the Biblical God would say yes, join in the rapture? Well that is up to God but I will give them a slim chance but if they are they are in a shock of their lives unlike the Christians who believed anyway. But why would God judge most of the Middle East in the endtimes, a lot of people in that region will be killed off, Ezekiel 39 says it will take 7 years to bury them when they attack Israel so I doubt they are in the rapture, very few must make it.

Originally posted by will615
I was raised Catholic myself, but now I just consider myself a Christian, but I know plenty of people who truly believe they're righteous Catholics and are the furthest thing from it.

That's true in any religion or sect. But that's the thing about religion. It's what people believe. Some people get together because they at least think they believe the same stuff, but they don't necessarily. Everybody believes something slightly different, because everybody is different and they all have different contexts for their beliefs. Ask 10 Christians what they think Jesus taught, and you'll get 10 different answers.

I think that most people in any religion are "pickers and choosers," who will only believe or follow the teachings of a particular religion or sect up to the point where it starts to interfere with their regular lives. Jesus said to give away all your possessions. How many people really do that? It's much easier to come up with a rationalization to explain that's not what he really meant.

Originally posted by Ittabena
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I would be more inclined to believe the people judging whom is and isn't going to heaven is in far greater peril than those whom simply are doing what they personally feel is right for them.

I second that one.

Wasn't there something in the Bible about "Judgement is mine sayeth the Lord"?


I don't think the OP is trying do judge anyone The thread title is just a question. And yes, it is for the Lord to judge only.----not us.

Guess the Catholics are not the only ones who missed something.

Originally posted by The time lord
reply to post by daslobo

 

Yes I understand that but many accuse the Catholics of this, I just looked into it and there was quite a few websites based on this, it is like praying for each other and asking the saints to do so.

The only problem is that some kids or Catholics get the message wrong and believe praying to the image of a Saint will be the same thing which maybe can confuse the overall message.

The differences it seems are these:
Praying to Jesus-
Praying to the Saints for help-
Praying for one another -

VS

Praying to a Image or Statue litrally-
Believing in the Statue will help-
Kids believing and getting confused the statue of Mary or the Saints would help-
Using images to visualise prayer with God and the Saints-

Confusing worship, people saying that Joseph and Mary statues are the real Saints-
Saying they are Saints but only representation of them -
Giving Money to the Statues litrally because they believe they will help-
Or Giving money to the Statues in order to help the Church-
Or the Church purposely insinuating the Statues to be a forgiving or holy object when it is not-
Then the message being a festival of Saints and nothing litral, but explantion is rarely given by priests in what they think or what people really think.-

Apart from that if Catholics believe in Christ as the Son the rest of the seperate beliefs of the Protestants should not really matter when the rapture does happen unless of course there was some form of corruption in the beliefs where people forgot about Christ first.

Unless the rapture is very hard to come by and only a few holy people make it, but the Bible does say somewhere even prostitutes and sinners make it because they believed rather than some of the pharasees who condem everyone and pray in the streets to heard, the ones that prayers to him self in silence of their sins are heard the loudest in heaven.

edit on 26-1-2012 by The time lord because: (no reason given)

As someone with 19 years of Catholic education in pre-school, middle school, jr high, high school, and college with instruction from an order of nuns, an order of brothers, and two different orders of priests I can tell you with certainty that nobody is taught to worship a saint or a statue of a saint. We revere the lives of saints and strive to follow their example.

When you say that priests rarely explain the community of saints, I'm curious as to what evidence you use to make that statement? Even the published books on saints are most often titled something like "The Lives of the Saints" and contain not a list of who to worship, but stories of lives of extraordinarily holy people that we should emulate. It is not the person that is of interest, it is the way they lived their lives.

By the way, here's a link to the official version of literally everything we're taught.

www.vatican.va...

Give it a look if you're curious.

Cheers.

reply to post by daslobo

But if you think it's the only denomination that abuses children you should ask the insurance companies that cover the Protestant congregations in America.

I believe I also said protestant churches in that post too. Lucifer's talons have sunk deep into every denomination, deeper in some than in others however. When i was a kid i went to an Assembly of God church (pentacostal) and the preacher commited adultery and had an affair with another woman and had to be removed from his post by the deacons.

There are not as many true christians as you think there are.

Matthew 7:13-210 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

This translation comes from the Jesuitized NIV and i wouldn't trust it without having an old KJV at my disposal but there it is, such as it is.

False prophets will come in Christ's name performing signs and wonders but they are not his...seems to me like Jesus is pointing the finger at someone... He also says not everyone who says Lord Lord, will enter the kingdom of his father. Those are the saddest words one could ever read.

Originally posted by will615

Originally posted by Ittabena
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I would be more inclined to believe the people judging whom is and isn't going to heaven is in far greater peril than those whom simply are doing what they personally feel is right for them.

I second that one.

Wasn't there something in the Bible about "Judgement is mine sayeth the Lord"?

I don't think the OP is trying do judge anyone The thread title is just a question. And yes, it is for the Lord to judge only.----not us.

Guess the Catholics are not the only ones who missed something.

The ops wasn't...but feel free to read the following comments
Especially the ones whom say matter of factly that catholics will not be going to heaven as they follow evil..etc.

Originally posted by daslobo

Originally posted by The time lord
reply to post by daslobo

 

Yes I understand that but many accuse the Catholics of this, I just looked into it and there was quite a few websites based on this, it is like praying for each other and asking the saints to do so.

The only problem is that some kids or Catholics get the message wrong and believe praying to the image of a Saint will be the same thing which maybe can confuse the overall message.

The differences it seems are these:
Praying to Jesus-
Praying to the Saints for help-
Praying for one another -

VS

Praying to a Image or Statue litrally-
Believing in the Statue will help-
Kids believing and getting confused the statue of Mary or the Saints would help-
Using images to visualise prayer with God and the Saints-

Confusing worship, people saying that Joseph and Mary statues are the real Saints-
Saying they are Saints but only representation of them -
Giving Money to the Statues litrally because they believe they will help-
Or Giving money to the Statues in order to help the Church-
Or the Church purposely insinuating the Statues to be a forgiving or holy object when it is not-
Then the message being a festival of Saints and nothing litral, but explantion is rarely given by priests in what they think or what people really think.-

Apart from that if Catholics believe in Christ as the Son the rest of the seperate beliefs of the Protestants should not really matter when the rapture does happen unless of course there was some form of corruption in the beliefs where people forgot about Christ first.

Unless the rapture is very hard to come by and only a few holy people make it, but the Bible does say somewhere even prostitutes and sinners make it because they believed rather than some of the pharasees who condem everyone and pray in the streets to heard, the ones that prayers to him self in silence of their sins are heard the loudest in heaven.

edit on 26-1-2012 by The time lord because: (no reason given)

As someone with 19 years of Catholic education in pre-school, middle school, jr high, high school, and college with instruction from an order of nuns, an order of brothers, and two different orders of priests I can tell you with certainty that nobody is taught to worship a saint or a statue of a saint. We revere the lives of saints and strive to follow their example.

When you say that priests rarely explain the community of saints, I'm curious as to what evidence you use to make that statement? Even the published books on saints are most often titled something like "The Lives of the Saints" and contain not a list of who to worship, but stories of lives of extraordinarily holy people that we should emulate. It is not the person that is of interest, it is the way they lived their lives.

By the way, here's a link to the official version of literally everything we're taught.

www.vatican.va...

Give it a look if you're curious.

Cheers.

I am usuing evidence of going on holiday to southern Italy and hearing people get happy about the statues, maybe it is my interpretation but it seems some take things litrally because they are very old fashioned that way in the south, I have heard them say how 'they are the saints' not sure if they really think they mean the statues or just the representation of the statues, seems to be a bit lost in translation.

It is like saying did you cut your hair?

Does that mean litrally you cut your hair.
Or does it mean you went to the hair dressers to cut your hair.

I was bit confused on what some people thought there.

reply to post by The time lord


I would say no. Neither one of you get into the rapture. Anyone who believes they will get in because they belong to a a certian religion, most certianly will not. It is not about professing your faith, it is about living your life as Jesus would live it. Without hate or prejudice or ego, etc. It is about truly loving your neighbor regardless of their faith, race, beliefs, etc.

I think all the self professed christians are in for a big surprise if the judgment day actually does come.

reply to post by sligtlyskeptical


I agree--so many hipocrites, but not all of us.

reply to post by The time lord

The Rapture doctrine does not have its origin in the biblical manuscripts...
...it is only an idea brought to the scriptures...
...and if you carefully examine the texts used to support it you won't find it there either.

The doctrine originated with John Nelson Darby about 1830 and it is believed by some that the concept first came to Darby after the chance hearing of a demonic utterance by Margaret MacDonald during a vision in Edward Irving's church in Scotland.

I think it is a case of 'say something long and often enough and less discerning people will believe it'.

Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical
It is not about professing your faith, it is about living your life as Jesus would live it. Without hate or prejudice or ego, etc. It is about truly loving your neighbor regardless of their faith, race, beliefs, etc.

I think all the self professed christians are in for a big surprise if the judgment day actually does come.

Don't forget about the demon casting and healing. A good chunk of the Gospels are devoted to stories about Jesus performing all kinds of freaky supernatural rites and hanging out with lepers and other sick people. So if you're not into that stuff, you can't really be living like Jesus, and you can pretty much count yourself out of any Rapture.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I hear you man.

From the translation of the oldest available documents, this final section of the message is written as a comparison, contrasting two kinds of life within the Christian community, the lives of those who obey the words of Jesus and the lives of those who don't. Most of the sayings are from Q (the document that many scholars believe was used as the source for the Gospels of Matthew and Luke).

But the message I guess is clear. You can go to whatever Church you want, but you better be good or it won't help.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


"I'm a missionary baptist and yes i've looked and nowhere in the bible is it written once saved always saved. Anyone that says that obviously failed to read Acts and Romans."

Never read it? How about Romans 8:38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
"Read the 7 letters to the Churches in Revelation. Jesus specifically says he has something against all the churches except Philadelphia. Our age is the Church of Laodicia. "

I believe the Church of Sardis was compared to the catholic church. Since the catholic church doesn't believe in the rapture, it would make sense, seeing as how he warned them he would come like a thief IF THEY DO NOT WATCH. Which would be obvious since they don't believe in it in the first place.

And as you said, the candlesticks were churches, he was talking about churches collectively, not individuals.

"Jesus also said there would be many false prophets coming in his names and performing signs and wonders but that they were not one of his and that you would know their fruits by their works."

Are you referring to Matt 24? Because if you are, you are taking this out of context, as most christians do. Matt 24 is NOT talking about the rapture. The whole "no man knows the day or hour" as an excuse not to look, is HOGWASH. He was referring to the Tribulation for that whole chapter. How do I know? Read Matt 24:5-9 and you'll see that these are the same things mentioned in Rev 6. These are the first 5 seal judgments being played out AND Matt 24 is also a dual fulfillment passage warning the Jews in their time of Titus in AD70.

"I see catholic priests having sex with little boys which is not only pedophilia, but homosexuality and fornication too. Now, i dunno about you but i read in the book of Acts that when youre saved Christ's Holy Spirit comes and dwells in you and gives you the option to no longer sin should you choose it. The catholic priests are also drunkards which the Council of Jerusalem establsihed we are to not partake of strong drink because it leads to debauchery. They worship Mary as the queen of heaven and make her part of the Trinity and call her the "Queen of Heaven" which is really the goddess Astarte/Ishtar."

All a strawman. I've never endorsed the RCC as a "christian" sect or church. When I spoke about catholics making the rapture, i made it on the condition on whom they believe their salvation rests on, the church or Jesus Christ. I'm making it an individual thing for christians because God does that as well.

"Do you think Christ had sex with little boys? Do you think he was homosexual? Do you think he fornicated? Do you think Christ was a drunkard? If you call yourself a christian and you do those things you are taking God's name in vain and are a blasphemer. I don't think those were the kinds of miracles the holy Spirit was supposed to work."

strawman continued. Are these the works of christians that CONTINUALLY do this? absolutely not. However, may i remind you that abraham was such a coward he almost let pharoah sleep with his wife. noah was a drunk, and samson had "women problems" to put it lightly. Peter denied Christ three times! And Paul held the coats so ppl could stone christians! My only point being here that although I don't endorse the RCC as a "christian" sect, i don't condemn everyone in it either b/c only God knows the INDIVIDUAL'S heart.

Now let me give you one to chew on, Eph 1: 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. We know scripture doesn't contradict itself, so how do you mesh what you believe, with this verse? Or Eph 2:8,9?

Don't broadbrush entire groups of ppl, it makes you appear foolish, and it's not scriptural. I'm not saying "don't judge", i think that's taken out of context also, we ARE supposed to judge, but only individuals, not entire groups of ppl.

Peace.

Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical
reply to post by The time lord

 

I would say no. Neither one of you get into the rapture. Anyone who believes they will get in because they belong to a a certian religion, most certianly will not. It is not about professing your faith, it is about living your life as Jesus would live it. Without hate or prejudice or ego, etc. It is about truly loving your neighbor regardless of their faith, race, beliefs, etc.

I think all the self professed christians are in for a big surprise if the judgment day actually does come.

Of course in that case, do we carry on loving your neighbour if they have painted a picture from themselves in which you become judgemental towards them and show some hatred towards you, I criticise a lot I guess in order to work things out, does that make me too or judgemental for God?

If so then just being on ATS is doing the Devils work, we are all in some way judging and arguing and doing what God does not like us to do, because God is harmony he has no conflict, I have for a long time held a theory that being on ATS is a like game of death where we all lose, even when trying to be a good neighbour overall.

It is like sending a negative energies to our selves it does not do people good.

reply to post by troubleshooter


From the link at the end of this post...
After having examined the claims of those critical of the rapture, I have found holes large enough to drive a dump truck through in their so-called evidence:

The first problem with the MacDonald origin is the fact that she wasn't the one who widely taught the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture. A man named John Darby is believed by many to have sparked modern interest in the rapture. The question here is how Darby came to hear of MacDonald's vision. Proponents like Dave MacPherson and John L. Bray have never been able to prove that Darby had ever heard of MacDonald or her vision.

Darby himself claims the revelation of the rapture came to him when he realized the distinction between Israel and the church.

Darby reported that he discovered the rapture teaching in 1827, three years before MacDonald had her vision.

When one closely examines MacDonald's vision, it becomes clear that her vision could not have been a pretribulational one. MacDonald looked for a "fiery trial which is to try us," and she foresaw the Church being purged by the Antichrist. Any pretribulation rapturist can tell you the Church will be removed before the advent of the Antichrist. John Bray, an anti-rapturist, said himself that Margaret MacDonald was teaching a single coming of our Lord Jesus. This contradicts current rapture doctrine, which teaches a two-staged event—first, Christ coming for His Church and second, seven years later His return to earth. With so many contradictions between MacDonald's vision and today's pretribulationism, it is difficult to see any linkage.

By far the biggest mistake post-tribulationists have made attacking the rapture is claiming that the pretribulation rapture wasn’t taught before 1830. In fact, John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision. Bray was first proven wrong when he wrote in a newsletter, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory." Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offer to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings. Apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again: "I offered $500 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time.” No one claimed that offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: “Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza." Lately, a number of other sources have been located that teach the pretribulation rapture--some written as early as the second century. Where does this leave Margaret MacDonald?

raptureready.com...